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If Grav weapons are nerfed against Gargantuan, then Haywire should be the same against Super-heavies.

What I would like to see is Grav weapons being toned down to AP3. If you want to kill Terminators, grab Plasma and Meltas.

bibotot wrote:
If Grav weapons are nerfed against Gargantuan, then Haywire should be the same against Super-heavies.

What I would like to see is Grav weapons being toned down to AP3. If you want to kill Terminators, grab Plasma and Meltas.

No, because then Riptides are immortal.

Martel732 wrote:

bibotot wrote:
If Grav weapons are nerfed against Gargantuan, then Haywire should be the same against Super-heavies.

What I would like to see is Grav weapons being toned down to AP3. If you want to kill Terminators, grab Plasma and Meltas.

No, because then Riptides are immortal.

Alternative rule for grav weapons: Against T6 or higher models, rather than wounding on the target's armor save, the hits are resolved at Strength D. AP3, sure, but get a 6 to wound, and it's gone in one. No lucky 3++, or FNP to save 'em this time...

I wonder, would that be OP, or not strong enough?

I'm always opposed to weapons that need to pray for "6's". That's why I'm not a huge fan of the AC for anti-tank work unless you have a lot of them.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm always opposed to weapons that need to pray for "6's". That's why I'm not a huge fan of the AC for anti-tank work unless you have a lot of them.

Well, yeah, but here it's not "get a 6, inflict one wound or strip one hull point", it's "get a 6, remove 185+ point model from the table, no saves of any kind permitted." Lemme run the numbers -

Assuming one grav-gun, no twin-linkage: BS4, so an average of two hits. Against a Riptide, that's then a roll on the Destroyer chart, for 1.667 successful damaging results. If I'm thinking straight, that's not amazing odds (though one muffed armor save might be the end, if you roll a 2 or 3). It looks a lot better against a Wraithknight. Hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You might have a point here, the odds might be too long without the AP2. But then, if hits against T6+ are Str D, you might not need the volume of fire, as long as it has AP2.

What about Grav Gun - Salvo 2/2, Grav Cannon, Salvo 3/3.
In addition to current effects, deals d3 wounds instead of 1

Hurts MCs much more now, while threatening Termies and most other infantry a bit less.

Bharring wrote:
What about Grav Gun - Salvo 2/2, Grav Cannon, Salvo 3/3.
In addition to current effects, deals d3 wounds instead of 1

Hurts MCs much more now, while threatening Termies and most other infantry a bit less.

Sure. Although people with ICs they care about (not me) will throw a fit.

As someone with ICs that I care about, I can live with that, I've got mooks to take the hits.

I like the AP 3 suggestion best. It solves the OP's original complaint (Grav weapons smoking his Bio-Titian's in a single turn for a fraction of the cost) while also solving what seems to be the biggest reason people don't wanna see it change, the Wraithknight.

As for Riptides, they aren't invincible. That biker unit that took 2 Gravs and a Combi-Grav can take 2 Plasmas and a Combi-Plasma, Of course it's not as effective, but it's also much cheaper then the Riptide and it will likely cause 1-2 wounds to itself over the course of the game. Terminators can stay a little safer on the board and while Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants and Talosi still get boned, at least they have FnP/Easy access to cover.

Perhaps more importantly it gives Plasma a niche. Currently, if your looking for AP in a Marine army, you look straight at Grav. When you need anti-MC? Grav. Anti-tank? Melta. Plasma needs a niche it can do better then any other special weapon SM have access to, and by making Grav AP 3 it makes Plasma your go-to weapon for AP 2 ranged duties.

"As for Riptides, they aren't invincible."

Without grav, they pretty much are for marines.

"e and it will likely cause 1-2 wounds to itself over the course of the game."

Not really my experience. I almost always have to remove 4 or 5 myself.

Every time they overcharge they have a 1/3 chance of taking a wound, unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade, in which case he has a 1/3 chance of saving that wound.

If he doesn't overcharge, then the Riptides fire power simply isn't enough to justify it's cost.

As for killing it, Plasma is as effective as it always was, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. Las cannons hit on 3's wound on 2's, multimelta's the same. Psy-Shriek vs Ld 8 is also very effective. You have lots of tools. For example all of those Free Razorbacks equipped with Las/Plas would be a great answer, as well as a Tri-Las Predator on the cheap.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Every time they overcharge they have a 1/3 chance of taking a wound, unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade, in which case he has a 1/3 chance of saving that wound.

If he doesn't overcharge, then the Riptides fire power simply isn't enough to justify it's cost.

As for killing it, Plasma is as effective as it always was, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. Las cannons hit on 3's wound on 2's, multimelta's the same. Psy-Shriek vs Ld 8 is also very effective. You have lots of tools. For example all of those Free Razorbacks equipped with Las/Plas would be a great answer, as well as a Tri-Las Predator on the cheap.

BA don't get free anything. Tri-las pred has too low of a ROF; I've tried those. Yeah, vanilla can just go Skyhammer. I'm talking about other marine lists.

" unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade"

Not expensive enough, evidently.

"You have lots of tools. "

Tools the Tau are really good at shooting off the table before they can reach the Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:
"As for Riptides, they aren't invincible."

Without grav, they pretty much are for marines.

"e and it will likely cause 1-2 wounds to itself over the course of the game."

Not really my experience. I almost always have to remove 4 or 5 myself.

You seem to be swimming in a meta full of mean xeno players.

a Riptide should cause a wound or two to them selves statistically if they are always using nova powers.

without gravs though its a hella uphill battle for marines against the big baddies like RT and WK.

"a Riptide should cause a wound or two to them selves statistically if they are always using nova powers. "

Don't they have a mode that's NOT nova charge but is still AP2? I think that's what they use against my guys w/o FNP because they don't need to double them out. All they have to do is roll a gets hot for that. The FNP upgrade makes is it so they only have to NOVA the save in extreme circumstances.

I'd say they cause an average of .75 W to themselves per game in my games.

Blood Angles have a formation of 3 Storm Ravens, which comes on turn 1, and the Marines inside have a Teleport Homer. Anyone who Deepstrikes within 12" don't scatter AND can charge first turn. Tau have reasonable Skyfire, but it is mainly Str 7 and AP 4, so they are extremely unlikely to down all those Ravens. Then next turn, your SS/TH Terminators or Assault Marines or Jump Pack Death Company deepstrike in and assault everything within range. Assault Marines won't kill a Riptide, but they won't run either so you get to tie is up until you Terminators can deal with it.

If your going to pull a Sob Story about how your army is left in the dust, remember there are armies much lower on the food chain then Blood Angles, with a lot less options.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Blood Angles have a formation of 3 Storm Ravens, which comes on turn 1, and the Marines inside have a Teleport Homer. Anyone who Deepstrikes within 12" don't scatter AND can charge first turn. Tau have reasonable Skyfire, but it is mainly Str 7 and AP 4, so they are extremely unlikely to down all those Ravens. Then next turn, your SS/TH Terminators or Assault Marines or Jump Pack Death Company deepstrike in and assault everything within range. Assault Marines won't kill a Riptide, but they won't run either so you get to tie is up until you Terminators can deal with it.

If your going to pull a Sob Story about how your army is left in the dust, remember there are armies much lower on the food chain then Blood Angles, with a lot less options.

That formation has a LOT of problems against a lot of lists not named Tau. The first problem being having to buy 1000 pts of terrible units. (Yes, Stormravens are terrible) Try again please. I personally have tabled that formation three times now. So it can't even win a mirror match consistently. Garbage.

"remember there are armies much lower on the food chain then Blood Angles, with a lot less options."

Those would be which ones? BA have a strong argument for worst list in the game.

Everything has a weakness, grav happens to be a GMCs weakness

Martel732 wrote:
Try again please. I personally have tabled that formation three times now. So it can't even win a mirror match consistently. Garbage.

That doesnt sound like a problem with the list if its a mirror match....... just sayin.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Try again please. I personally have tabled that formation three times now. So it can't even win a mirror match consistently. Garbage.

That doesnt sound like a problem with the list if its a mirror match....... just sayin.

I'm making the point that if that formation is so great, it should be able to crush other BA lists not using that formation. But in my case, I tabled him using CADs. Three times. Pathetic.

Thats pretty sad. sorry when i read mirror match im thinking mirror list not codex.

Armies worse off then Blood Angles? Dark Eldar take the cake, closely followed by Pure Chaos Space Marines, Unallied Guard (although Forge World helps them out a lot), Blood Angles and Orks are neck and neck in my eyes and i don't know enough about Sisters to put them on the scale. But Dark Eldar, definitely Dark Eldar.

That formation is a hard counter to any army that doesn't have a strong assault element and doesn't have enough Skyfire to down the Ravens (which aren't half bad, lots of firepower and very durable, just a bit to expensive). We could make a list of Tau, Guard, Decurion Necrons (Apart from Wraiths, very vulnerable to being swept in combat), Dark Eldar, Scatbiker Spam and i am sure there are more.

But that's besides the point, if making Grav AP 3 means GMC , Tyrannofexes and Terminators get to have a fair game and the only problem it causes is Riptides, then that is a win. Besides, you have an option in your army that can decimate Tau, you just choose not to use it.

The Riptide has an 'overcharge' on the IA that makes it Large Blast Str 8 Ap 2, gets hot. However low BS means that it *needs* Markerlight support, the fact is doesn't ignore cover means it needs even more Markerlight support. So, as with all advise against Tau, if you can limit their Markerlights then they become much less effective. Almost 200pts for a single Str 8 AP 2 Large Blast isn't the best firepower pointswise...

Dunno orks have been doing good in competitive play lately apparently. (which is a good thing.)

Since it seemed to have been missed with the page roll over, what about something like this?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Grav-pistol: The same stats. Points decrease to 10pts as long as the same happens to the Plasma pistol.

Grav-gun: Range 18"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 1; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|15pts

Grav-cannon: Range 24"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 2; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|40pts with Grav-amp on the Heavy Weapons List (Now available for BA and SW), 30pts on Centurion Devastators.

Heavy Grav-cannon: Range 30"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 2; Blast; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|10/15pts for Kataphron Destroyers (as opposed to free, like they were before. Remember this replaces their default Plasma Culverin)

The Bigger They Are...: If the hit model is Toughness 6 or higher and suffers an unsaved wound, this weapon causes D3 wounds instead of 1.

It doesn't stop the problem of Cents or Kataphrons destroying GC with ease, but it does stop them being able to wipe out other units with ease, focussing their role more.

 Desubot wrote:
Thats pretty sad. sorry when i read mirror match im thinking mirror list not codex.

Coward BA hiding in and behind Rhino are surprisingly resilient to alpha strikes. And bikes/jumpers have the mobility to still get around after setting up in a castle.

"Besides, you have an option in your army that can decimate Tau, you just choose not to use it. "

That's because our group doesn't allow list tailoring. I wouldn't know WHEN to use it.

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Every time they overcharge they have a 1/3 chance of taking a wound, unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade, in which case he has a 1/3 chance of saving that wound.

If he doesn't overcharge, then the Riptides fire power simply isn't enough to justify it's cost.

As for killing it, Plasma is as effective as it always was, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. Las cannons hit on 3's wound on 2's, multimelta's the same. Psy-Shriek vs Ld 8 is also very effective. You have lots of tools. For example all of those Free Razorbacks equipped with Las/Plas would be a great answer, as well as a Tri-Las Predator on the cheap.

BA don't get free anything. Tri-las pred has too low of a ROF; I've tried those. Yeah, vanilla can just go Skyhammer. I'm talking about other marine lists.

" unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade"

Not expensive enough, evidently.

"You have lots of tools. "

Tools the Tau are really good at shooting off the table before they can reach the Riptide.

For the record the "evidently not expensive enough" upgrade for FNP costs about as much as a terminator.

No one wants to nerf your BA into the ground. I will reiterate for the third time that the changes I proposed were only supposed to affect GC's and with the way they were written the grav weapons would still deny the WK its save as well as the Riptide since the riptide is only an MC(and for the fourth time therefore not affected by my chart). Even with my proposition Hierodules still get boned but I can suck that up and compromise. Can you? So please stop complaining now like you have for the past seven pages. Thanks!

Fair enough. It's hard when you've got exactly one unit keeping your codex playable.

Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

Grav gets an extra shot vs MEQs, and from 6" further away. Really what plasma does for you is lets you kill Orks and other poorly armored units in a pinch. That being said, most plasma is gone from my lists. Grav IS extremely strong, but so are some of the units in the game now. It's pretty much a big mess.

My usage of grav has only increased since they made it so I can't poison out WK with Sternguard.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

Grav gets an extra shot vs MEQs, and from 6" further away. Really what plasma does for you is lets you kill Orks and other poorly armored units in a pinch. That being said, most plasma is gone from my lists. Grav IS extremely strong, but so are some of the units in the game now. It's pretty much a big mess.

My usage of grav has only increased since they made it so I can't poison out WK with Sternguard.

Sternguard need some more special ammo profiles, one of which mimics grav. Plasma does have a place, mostly in non-relentless units.