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If you want to run something fast down and clobber it in CC, using a unit that exemplifies slow and steady is probably the wrong tool. Your disregard of small arms and discounting of durability sums up yours. Terminators are neither ASMs nor Devestators, and shouldn't become them.

You don't see foot Guardians doing well at tournies often. You do see scout spam, Necron Warrior spam, SM obsec MSU, and Kalabite spam. You also see stuff like IK spam and Windrider spam, but not all good tourny lists ignore small arms.

If Guardians had Termie durability and the suggested firepower, even at Termie prices you'd see them everywhere.

"Terminators are neither ASMs nor Devestators, and shouldn't become them. "

What they are is unusable currently.


And I don't discount durability. I have almost packed up anbd quit against Necron Wraiths before. Terminators just don't have any durability to speak of.

'If you want to run something fast down and clobber it in CC, using a unit that exemplifies slow and steady is probably the wrong tool"

But YOU said above their big deal was their CC ability. So, if they can't use it because they are slow (like I've been saying) what good are they?

" Your disregard of small arms"

GW decided they'd be useless, not I.

If Guardians break, they fall back 2d6, then on their turn they fall back another 2d6 and can't voluntarily move. 4d6 averages 14". Anything over 12", and even if they aren't off the board, they can't shoot said Termies, unless you consolidated into it. If they regroup they can shoot.

Either way, assuming they are lucky and can shoot, it's at 25% accuracy, with whatever is left. So now the Termies are *heavily* out shooting the running Guardians.

(If you're constantly having that problem, try consolidating away from them.)

Honestly, Termies do need a buff, but even as is can handle Guardians rather well. Abuse that 12".



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nobody claims a Wraithlord is not a CC model. It has the same movement.

Place them in front of Berserkers or something else thats CC but doesn't have AP2. Ever seen Banshees try to drop Termies? Its hilarious.

"Nobody claims a Wraithlord is not a CC model. It has the same movement. "

Haven't seen one since the WK came out. Irreleveant model now.

"Ever seen Banshees try to drop Termies? Its hilarious."

Why would you use banshees? Why would get them anywhere near 2+ armor?

"Place them in front of Berserkers"

You mean the berserkers that don't die to shooting? Why buy terminators when I can just shoot all the CC threats to death? Like all the Xeno lists do.

"Honestly, Termies do need a buff, but even as is can handle Guardians rather well. Abuse that 12". "

Glad a marine elite choice can hold its own against the most basic Eldar troop. I feel so much better now. Now try to take on Warp Spiders, an actual Eldar elite.

Of course you don't see Wraithlords in ultra competitive metas much right now. Because the WK is broken. So are you going to buff the WL up to WK levels? I hope not.

Of course an Eldar player won't let Banshees near Termies. That means Termies stop Banshees from touching anything in a large area. Effectively, Termies win.

If most things can't take Termies in CC, for their points, why should Termies also be able to beat them at shooting, for their points?

"If most things can't take Termies in CC, for their points, why should Termies also be able to beat them at shooting, for their points?"

Because CC ability is largely pointless in 7th ed. Skyhammer works because the units effectively teleport straight into CC. Even then, it's more tying up shooters than lethality as the major factor. And CC is doubly pointless for terminators because their delivery systems suck so bad.

CC ability for TWC and Wraiths matter, because they have the speed and durability to make it to CC.

". So are you going to buff the WL up to WK levels? I hope not"

I would, just to see some variety. I don't think you understand my level of despair here.

"That means Termies stop Banshees from touching anything in a large area. Effectively, Termies win. "

Shoot termies to death (you ARE Eldar, still), then use your banshees, if you must have them in your list. Banshees in a vacuum don't win, but Eldar still win.

Bharring wrote:
Of course you don't see Wraithlords in ultra competitive metas much right now. Because the WK is broken. So are you going to buff the WL up to WK levels? I hope not.

Of course an Eldar player won't let Banshees near Termies. That means Termies stop Banshees from touching anything in a large area. Effectively, Termies win.

If most things can't take Termies in CC, for their points, why should Termies also be able to beat them at shooting, for their points?

I'll give you something here - banshees are in worse shape than even terminators. But come on....

Terminators are supposed to take on entire planets dude...They should be able to "take on" anything - even stuff that is faster than them. Kind of like Wraiths and TWC can "take on" anything. As far as I know - if you are giving up a 3++ save for a shooting attack - it better be a good shooting attack - thats the best place to start to fix tactical terminators. They need more firepower and it needs to be free.

(FYI, Spiders are FA, not Elites. Banshees are Elites)

I'm fairly sure it typically takes less dakka to kill Banshees than it does to kill Termies.

If you don't want a slow moving CC unit, don't take one. If they're worthless because the fast moving ones are OP, fix that. If they are worthless because some shooting units are OP, fix that. There are battlefield roles for slow moving durable CC monsters. Termies probably need some help to be that. But that doesn't mean we should shift everything out of that role, just because you can't picture how to use it.


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Its giving up a shooting attack and paying a bunch of points for that 3++.

(Xeno - I think even Banshees are better than they should be now! Look up their points, and reread their rules! But that would be another thread!)


Wraiths and TWC *shouldnt* be able to take on anything. That is probably a bigger part of the problem than the termie rules themselves.

"There are battlefield roles for slow moving durable CC monsters."

Not in a game dominated by shooting. As I said skyhammer ASM are 1,000 times better even though they are way less lethal because they just appear in CC.

" If they're worthless because the fast moving ones are OP, fix that. If they are worthless because some shooting units are OP, fix that"

It's more complicated than that, and I wish more people understood this. Terminators are forced to buy individual components that in theory add up to 35 or 40 pts or whatever, but in practice don't work out at all. It's not because of OP shooters or OP CC units. It's that the tools terminators are given just don't work together well, and never have for the loyalist terminators.

"But that doesn't mean we should shift everything out of that role, just because you can't picture how to use it."

GW has defacto demanded it with the units they have put in the game. I can't picture how to use it with the game that GW has created. That's different than not being able to picture it at all.

"If you want to run something fast down and clobber it in CC"

By the way, Sanguinary Guard should be able to do this with a 2+ save, but they are also miserable because of all the AP 2 in the game. They just die without accomplishing anything.

So the TLDR is:
-GW has made the game only care about glass cannons
-GW has made Termies not be glass cannons
?

And the assumption is #1 is both true and immutable, but #2 is profane?

"GW has made the game only care about glass cannons
-GW has made Termies not be glass cannons "

Not exactly. There ARE units where durability is a thing, but T4 W1 2+/5++ is not one of them. Yes, we can alter those stats but it just seems so much easier and more effective to upgun them. And it's better to be a glass cannon than a glass popgun. Which is what they are right now. Easy to kill and they accomplish nothing before they die.

Martel732 wrote:

As I have stated, putting on additional saves is not my preferred method of handling this. Also, single shot weapons like the lascannon are really poor in 7th ed. The whole 4++ reroll thing is there to survive grav. And grav was implemented to kill 2+ save MCs, which were the original sin of 6th ed imo.

I know, I was responding to some of the others regarding proposed durability fixes.

Yes, they are really poor. I blame it on overly-generous cover saves since 6th , particularly the abundance of area cover that gives 4++ . And becasue of that same imblanace, "ignore cover" weapons are too good. But that's a discussion for another day.

I've been following the thread, and while I can see your logic in that the assault cannon upgrade is the simplest solution, I don't think the overall power of everything needs to be measured on the same scale. A terminator's forte should be unmatched durability among heavy infantry, and very good close combat ability. If I wanted pure firepower for my points, I look to long fangs and tanks. I would be more concerned about the effectiveness of other bike / fast attack units vs scatterbikes rather than a unit which has a completely different battlefield role.

By all means termies overall effectiveness per points does need to be remedied, but this doesn't neccessarily have to be done via a massive firepower increase. As mentioned I would suggest moderate firepower increase, big durability increase, and if needs be a points adjustment to make them viable. So they're not as shooty as scatterbikes point for point, but as long as they're effective in their own area -close range firefights, melee and extreme resiliance, then I'd say they're exactly what they should be.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

As I have stated, putting on additional saves is not my preferred method of handling this. Also, single shot weapons like the lascannon are really poor in 7th ed. The whole 4++ reroll thing is there to survive grav. And grav was implemented to kill 2+ save MCs, which were the original sin of 6th ed imo.

I know, I was responding to some of the others regarding proposed durability fixes.

Yes, they are really poor. I blame it on overly-generous cover saves since 6th , particularly the abundance of area cover that gives 4++ . And becasue of that same imblanace, "ignore cover" weapons are too good. But that's a discussion for another day.

I've been following the thread, and while I can see your logic in that the assault cannon upgrade is the simplest solution, I don't think the overall power of everything needs to be measured on the same scale. A terminator's forte should be unmatched durability among heavy infantry, and very good close combat ability. If I wanted pure firepower for my points, I look to long fangs and tanks. I would be more concerned about the effectiveness of other bike / fast attack units vs scatterbikes rather than a unit which has a completely different battlefield role.

By all means termies overall effectiveness per points does need to be remedied, but this doesn't neccessarily have to be done via a massive firepower increase. As mentioned I would suggest moderate firepower increase, big durability increase, and if needs be a points adjustment to make them viable. So they're not as shooty as scatterbikes point for point, but as long as they're effective in their own area -close range firefights, melee and extreme resiliance, then I'd say they're exactly what they should be.

My concern is that they will end up being strictly inferior to the grav cent still. If you give them cent-like durability, but melee capability instead of ranged, you have a variation on the assault cent, which is never used. In theory, I agree with your assessment, but this game is very hard on slow CC units. How much durability are we talking here? On a unit w/o a storm shield? I just don't know how that shakes out.

GW has really painted terminators into a tight corner. They were never that great to begin with, but now with all the anti-2+ armor MC weapons out there, they are total gak.

 Xenomancers wrote:
@ "Guardians?"
Gardians have more firepower than the terminators I am suggesting. with 2/4 slavo rending SB.
Terms 8.5 points per shot.
guardians 5 points per shot.

Obviously it there are other factors to consider here but it's pretty clear that gardians do more dmg per point even after I suggest doubling the shots from a SB.

and guardians aren't even very good. Though - they are better than most think.

Are you joking? You need to play good players more! 2 squads of 10 guardian defenders dropped from 2 wave serpents are hands down the best cheap slaughter volley in the game.. 40 shots.. always wounds on 6.. 5 sixes on a average day plus all the regular bumpf shots are better than most.. no army can match them point for point for destruction.. PS they don't need a save they have no one left to hurt them

"PS they don't need a save they have no one left to hurt them"

Truly the best defense in 7th ed is to leave no models left within range to shoot back.

Martel is completely right in regards to this, unfortunately I disagree with him on the more dakka thing. It is actually the opposite. .....Kinda. Terminators need a buff in what they can carry, I would be fine with them being able to purchase AC's. However, GW needs to remove A LOT of the dakka in this game. Everything these days has AP2 or Ignores Cover and is usually S6 or better. I wont field Eavy Armor Boyz because I know for a solid fact that the 4pts per model increase isn't worth i because they will get shredded by the hundred things in this game with a better AP value then 4.

Bharring wrote:

Of course an Eldar player won't let Banshees near Termies. That means Termies stop Banshees from touching anything in a large area. Effectively, Termies win.

Banshees are terrible in the first place, and even then can easily tarpit the Terminators. On average you'll hit them with 4 Power Fist attacks and 1 Power Sword attack, with one Power Fist failing every other round and the Sword failing 1/3. They're also attacking 15 Howling Banshees for the cost. They also have 15 pseudo Rending shots and can't be shot at for Overwatch. So if you're talking about Terminators scaring away Banshees, nope. They'll probably kill two Terminators from shooting and then probably two Terminators in combat.

Effective at melee? Not even close...

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Martel is completely right in regards to this, unfortunately I disagree with him on the more dakka thing. It is actually the opposite. .....Kinda. Terminators need a buff in what they can carry, I would be fine with them being able to purchase AC's. However, GW needs to remove A LOT of the dakka in this game. Everything these days has AP2 or Ignores Cover and is usually S6 or better. I wont field Eavy Armor Boyz because I know for a solid fact that the 4pts per model increase isn't worth i because they will get shredded by the hundred things in this game with a better AP value then 4.

I understand your sentiment, but I'm coming from the angle of the dakka cat is already out of the bag. The whole situation sucks.

Martel732 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I'd say give the sergeant 2W and perhaps a few abilities, like the exarchs from Eldar.

The sergeants used to have 2W in rogue traders as well, like somone here mentioned.

That would be enough to make characters wary of being challenged out by them. Would also make the game mor colourfull with "real" charachters instead of these 1W sergeants that you find everywhere.

That's an interesting idea and has some merit, but doesn't really fix the underlying problems with the unit.

Maybe, if one of the abilities is "can charge out of deepstrike" or a double set of flamers? Or even fleet or "lets squad attack on initative, even with power fists?


Anyway, I dont think they can be given more durability without taking more ap2 weapons out of the game. A FnP would just add to the inflation...

I'm afraid I have to question your banshee numbers.

1) Banshees kill 1/9 Termies per shot, with 1 shot each. Termies kill 2/9 Banshees with 2 shots each. So a Termie is *four times* as deadly to Banshees as Banshees are to Termies. Once Banshees get with 12", and somehow avoid the charge, of course.

2) In CC, a Banshee kills 2x(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) Termies a round. That's 1/18. So 15 banshees average *less* than 1 dead Termie a round. A Termie (2 attacks base) kills 2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) Banshees a round. That's 10/12. Even assuming 15 Banshees kill 1 Termie before he swings, that's still 40/12 dead Banshees. Notably over 3. So even 15:5, Termies destroy Banshees.

So Banshees lose at range. And Banshees lose at CC. And Banshees lose at claiming ground.

And those numbers are for Termies as they are now, not the proposed bonkers versions.

"not the proposed bonkers versions."

It's so bonker for the Eldar to have to face units that they might actually lose to.

Because everyone auto-losing to Termies would somehow make the game better?

Seriously?

ConanMan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@ "Guardians?"
Gardians have more firepower than the terminators I am suggesting. with 2/4 slavo rending SB.
Terms 8.5 points per shot.
guardians 5 points per shot.

Obviously it there are other factors to consider here but it's pretty clear that gardians do more dmg per point even after I suggest doubling the shots from a SB.

and guardians aren't even very good. Though - they are better than most think.

Are you joking? You need to play good players more! 2 squads of 10 guardian defenders dropped from 2 wave serpents are hands down the best cheap slaughter volley in the game.. 40 shots.. always wounds on 6.. 5 sixes on a average day plus all the regular bumpf shots are better than most.. no army can match them point for point for destruction.. PS they don't need a save they have no one left to hurt them

I agree with you man - look at what I've been saying!

Footdar never sees the light of day because serpents were OP and now Scatbikes are also OP. but Gardians are still above the curve.

60 gardians is 600 points (Theres also silly formations to make them bs5)
Puts out more firepower than most armies. (oh but they die easy) really? cause everyone is taking grav cannons....not really sure how thats gonna help vs 60 gardians....plus you still got 1250 points of OP eldar behind them.

I like T5 with 5+ FnP idea

steelreign wrote:
I like T5 with 5+ FnP idea

This certainly would make them tough enough to live to CC. With a 5++ and FNP they would be hard as nails to kill.

Well, clearly defining the goal might help.

Which one of these is most desirable?
-Make Termies more durable vs everything
-Make Termies more durable mostly vs AP2/1
-Make Termies more durable mostly vs AP3+

Another choice:
-Make Termies more durable vs CC
-Make Termies more durable vs Shooting

Depending on the answers to those questions, the resolution differs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Another note - reread the formation that gives Guardians BS5. It doesn't. That should help. And if they keep destroying you, try small arms. You'd be surprised how much a boltgun does to them.)

Bharring wrote:
Because everyone auto-losing to Termies would somehow make the game better?

Seriously?

Exaggeration.

"Well, clearly defining the goal might help."

That's its own thread.

" And if they keep destroying you, try small arms"

They are a meta counter, as small arms are a total fail against so many other army builds.

I noticed that more firepower wasn't even on your list.

So TEQs not being as good as GEQs against lists built specifically to stop TEQs is a problem? Really?

I can agree that Tac Termies are kinda on the low end for TEQs, and Eldar OP, but shouldnt a GEQ horde do OK against weapons designed to kill TEQs?

And what do you think would reasonably counter 45ppm Termies with free Assault Cannons on each one? Maybe Skyhammer grav spam, but what else? I would think most lists would be auto-lose against that. So no, not an exageration, I think.

Isn't clearly defining the goal of "What to do about Terminators", not only in scope, but absolutely critical to deciding "What to do about Terminators"?

This isn't supposed to be another "Screw all Xenos because Eldar - and some IoM - OP!" thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(More firepower is an option. The most recent responses had been about durability.)

If you want more firepower for Termies, how's this:
-Get some larger bases, elevated would be a plus
-Mount a pair of Termies on each base. Armed with HBs or Gravs and/or CML as appropriate
-Begin each game with "This unit of Dev Termies are Dev Cents counts-as"
-Enjoy gak that GW has *already* added to the game, without ruining everyone's Termies.

"If you want more firepower for Termies, how's this: "

So you are completely not open to this at all. Wow. That's incredibly close minded. Especially for a player whose codex got scatterlasers on their TROOPS. Think about that for a minute before unilaterally decided that marine elites should be relegated to popguns.

"And what do you think would reasonably counter 45ppm Termies with free Assault Cannons on each one?"

Taking the medicine for one turn, and then shooting them off the table. Same thing as everything else in this game. How do I counter D-scythe wraithguard? Lose a unit and then try to shoot them off the table. How do I counter TWC? Sacrifice a unit to them and then try to shoot them off the table. How do I counter Wraiths? I don't, because I'm BA. Get the idea? I'm really having a hard time imaging how your games go given your philosophy about things.

I'd be more than happy to settle for the heavy bolter if ROF 3 S5 wasn't so damn weak in the current game. Can't glance out AV 12, and can't put enough wounds on the godly T6 MCs running around. The heavy bolter is trash, and that's another imperial problem that propagates through IoM lists.

Funny that, BA don't even get the centurions you are talking about. Eldar are currently an autowin button against BA. So I'm really having a hard time with your idea of keeping the tactical terminator in the dirt. Maybe you're willing to self-nerf, but most Eldar players aren't where I play and I suspect that's true in general given the nerfs tourney organizers have handed down. Even with those nerfs, they beat BA easily.

"This isn't supposed to be another "Screw all Xenos because Eldar - and some IoM - OP!" thread."

I'm not trying to screw anyone. And even if I were, I'm an amateur compared to what GW has already done.

"I can agree that Tac Termies are kinda on the low end for TEQs"

This is where you fail to grasp the futility. Tac terminators are the worst unit in the BA codex, which by extension, almost certainly makes them the worst unit in the marine codex. Even at 35 ppm. This is out of a pair of books with plenty of bad units you never see.

"without ruining everyone's Termies."

GW has already been doing that for 20 years.

Terminators are fluff wise supposed to be the ELITE of the Space Marine Armies. They are supposed to eat up firepower that would kill lesser marines and in return devastate their opponents with return fire. The current problem with them is that they are ignorable.

In every game I have EVER played against a SM or Chaos SM player who fielded any number of Terminators it was easy to win. They are slow, costly and don't have enough firepower to thin out my ranks before I assault them and swamp them in numbers.

5 terminators costs roughly the same amount as my Ork Horde (29 boyz, Nob BP/PK) 220pts ish.

at 24 inches the termies can kill 4-5 boyz my turn i move, and run and soak up the fire for another turn. turn two the terminators kill another 4-5 so lets say 9 dead orks at this point. On my turn I move, shoot and assault and beat the terminators by sheer numbers. 20 orks = 80 CC attacks. 40 hits 20 wounds and 3ish dead terminators, combat is basically over and that is before my Nob gets to swing with his PK and kill the remaining 2 Terminators.

They definitely need an upgrade in firepower, I think giving them all access to special weapons would be fine. I am perfectly ok with 5 terminators running around with AC's so long as they have to pay a points cost for them. (not full cost as that is Over Priced as it is)