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"even compared to AP4 and *actual rending*, but an extra 12" range on IoM weapons means nothing? Really? "

In practice, it turns out that way very often. Those 48" IoM weapons mostly suck. And the jump from 24" to 36" is way more significant than from 36" to 48".

" Compared to 2 shots, Small Blast should tend to do better. "

They don't.

"Is there really any other complaint about Assault Cannons other than the 24" range?"

What units can take them. And the numbers that can be realistically be fielded. And the price. Without massing ACs like Eldar can bladestorm, real rending is not that hot.

Can we just Remove bladestorm. and make scatterbikes 1 scatter per unit of 3.. please..

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just Remove bladestorm. and make scatterbikes 1 scatter per unit of 3.. please..

Find an Eldar player to agree to that and sure.

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just Remove bladestorm. and make scatterbikes 1 scatter per unit of 3.. please..

Eldar: Clearly the reason terminators aren't taken.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just Remove bladestorm. and make scatterbikes 1 scatter per unit of 3.. please..

Find an Eldar player to agree to that and sure.

They dont need to agree.

SilverSaint wrote:


Eldar: Clearly the reason terminators aren't taken.

It causes more trouble than its worth to nearly all armies. not just terminators.

Eldar already have shooting tricks in Battle focus. they dont need rending-1, at best it should be an armor save modifier.

Weren't Termies not taken since before the 6E codex?

Another "Balance Eldar" thread could certainly be created, but are they really the only problem? Dire Avengers kill Termies at about the same rate per point as Plas/Combiplas Tac squads, so nerfing them down to naked-Tac shooting I don't think solves the Termie problem.

Bharring wrote:
Weren't Termies not taken since before the 6E codex?

Another "Balance Eldar" thread could certainly be created, but are they really the only problem? Dire Avengers kill Termies at about the same rate per point as Plas/Combiplas Tac squads, so nerfing them down to naked-Tac shooting I don't think solves the Termie problem.

Meh its just what i say when people keep bringing eldar up.

The game as a whole need to turn down its power. its obviously not just eldar but they definitly get a lot of flack. Grav weapons too need some fixing.

Defensive wise i would like to suggest terminator invuls to be upgraded to a ward save (taken after cover and or armor save if its failed) gives them a little something something without being too crazy
Weapons wise i would like storm bolters to be 3 shots at 18" or possibly just make them count as two bolters. so 4 shots at rapid 2 shots at range.

Heck, bikes do need a nerf -

Make Bladestorm resolve at AP3. Scatter lasers and shuricannons - 1 per 3. Armor save reduced to a 4+ (Same for Warlocks and Farseers. Autarchs and Shining Spears can keep their 3+). Base cost increased to 20ppm.

I play Eldar and I'd agree to that - but not to removing Bladestorm outright. (Storm bolters suck, right? They suck more with 12" range, even with Battle Focus or on Eldar Jetbikes...) Also, with Bladestorm gone, nobody would take Shuriken Cannons over Scatter Lasers, because their one advantage would be gone (other than the very narrow set of cases where AP5 helps over AP6).

What if we change the storm bolter profile to read:

This weapon is fired as two twin-linked bolters with the special issue ammunition rule.

Also, on what platforms is Bladestorm scary to Termies?

Windrider Jetbike ShuriKannon spam, certainly.

Guardians? Shoot them first? The average Storm Bolter shot kills 4/9 Guardians. The average Shuriken Catapault kills 1/9 Termies. Use your 24" range to at least get the alpha. Guardians only have a 12" range.

Dire Avengers? Kill as much as a plas/combiplas Tac squad per point. They do kill twice that of a naked Tac squad, sure. But they also die twice as fast to Storm Bolters. And CC? You need, what, 1 Termie to get into CC with 10 DAs to win combat?

Pistols? A Shuriken Pistol is as deadly to a Termie as a Boltgun (assuming 12" range).

What does Blade storm do to threaten Termies that Plas equipped Marines (or IG) cannot?

I mean the innate problem with terminator balance is the 2+ armor save. Everything else with a 2+ is either a terminator equivalent (and simply worse then a SM terminator) or a non-spammable multi-wound model like an IC, a few MC etc. The general lack of 2+ saves in the game put the 1 wound terminators in a position of always being overcosted. A 2+ save can just never be too cheap as it becomes to spamable(and near unbeatable by many armies), hence they are heavily costed. To make a 2+ save worth it the unit just needs to become better on a model basis, basically more expensive. This was done by making centurions, instead of just re-balancing all terminators as centurions, so GW could sell more models since most marine players already had more then enough terminators. There is no balancing of terminators, it was already done with centurions.

Also if you want to buff terminators...you need to just get in line as they are so much better then Mega Nobz its a literal joke. I mean orkz would literally kill for mega nobz to be even half of a marine terminator. Even ignoring the statline differences, much better weapon choices, and the 5 pts less/model since its a new codex....marine terminators have a 5++, deepstrike, ATSKNF, and chapter tactics over mega nobz (also no way to get an invuln save period).

I know mega nobz suck too. I think the extra wound is better than the 5+ save though.

' it was already done with centurions. "

I think Bharring has already made his opinion known on that

Bharring wrote:
Also, on what platforms is Bladestorm scary to Termies?

Windrider Jetbike ShuriKannon spam, certainly.

Guardians? Shoot them first? The average Storm Bolter shot kills 4/9 Guardians. The average Shuriken Catapault kills 1/9 Termies. Use your 24" range to at least get the alpha. Guardians only have a 12" range.

Dire Avengers? Kill as much as a plas/combiplas Tac squad per point. They do kill twice that of a naked Tac squad, sure. But they also die twice as fast to Storm Bolters. And CC? You need, what, 1 Termie to get into CC with 10 DAs to win combat?

Pistols? A Shuriken Pistol is as deadly to a Termie as a Boltgun (assuming 12" range).

What does Blade storm do to threaten Termies that Plas equipped Marines (or IG) cannot?

I suspect it's somewhat scary on Vypers, Starweavers, Wave Serpents and Falcons (and to a lesser extent, Fire Prism/Night Spinner, but they have other options). Of those, Falcons and Wave Serpents can both pack scarier guns (Starcannons kill Terminators stone-dead and Brightlances do too), and so can Vypers though the shuricannons are a bigger portion of the package there.

As for Starweavers, well, Harlequins have no particular difficulty taking out TEQs.

Martel732 wrote:
I know mega nobz suck too. I think the extra wound is better than the 5+ save though.

If only the difference was a 5++ vs an extra wound.... The multiple other terminator benefits aside las cannons, melta guns, D-weapons, those Str 10 blasts from tanks, basically anything you normally shoot at terminators outside of grav/plasma(which I will admit is a lot) just ignore the extra wound entirely and in melee this is even more so the case with powerfists.

A somewhat hilarious example is 5 meganobz charging 5 regular terminators. Both go at the same time with the meganobz having 20 attacks on the charge while the terminators have 10. On average meganobz get 10 hits and 7 wounds killing the terminators, but the terminators get 5 hits and either 4 or 5 dead meganobz (5 to wound rolls of 2+). Its only slightly above average for the terminators to kill all 5 charging meganobz and have 1 terminator live due to the 5++. This is even further exasperated by stormshields or heck, just not getting their charge bonus. The 5++ is just massive.

SilverSaint wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know mega nobz suck too. I think the extra wound is better than the 5+ save though.

If only the difference was a 5++ vs an extra wound.... The multiple other terminator benefits aside las cannons, melta guns, D-weapons, those Str 10 blasts from tanks, basically anything you normally shoot at terminators outside of grav/plasma(which I will admit is a lot) just ignore the extra wound entirely and in melee this is even more so the case with powerfists.

A somewhat hilarious example is 5 meganobz charging 5 regular terminators. Both go at the same time with the meganobz having 20 attacks on the charge while the terminators have 10. On average meganobz get 10 hits and 7 wounds killing the terminators, but the terminators get 5 hits and either 4 or 5 dead meganobz (5 to wound rolls of 2+). Its only slightly above average for the terminators to kill all 5 charging meganobz and have 1 terminator live due to the 5++. This is even further exasperated by stormshields or heck, just not getting their charge bonus. The 5++ is just massive.

And what happens when you charge the 5 Terminators and 5 Meganobz respectively into something that doesn't insta-death the Nobz?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[And what happens when you charge the 5 Terminators and 5 Meganobz respectively into something that doesn't insta-death the Nobz?

Its pretty clear that meganobz will cause more damage then terminators if they get to attack in melee, its their whole shtick being the same WS with 1 more attack. In return for that extra attack they are worse at shooting, considerably less durable against anything but massed weak shots, less mobile on foot(termies can run), and don't even mention leadership checks and mob rule(which include an auto 5 pt tax in a boss pole). The only thing they have going for them are Trukks as a DT, the sole reason they are playable.

but back on topic. Terminators need another slight point reduction and access to more weapons. These are the ELITE of the ELITE for Human kind and the best they can come up with is giving them all a 2 shot bolter? I would be 100% ok with Terminators being able to take AC's across the board, so long as they paid a decent price for them....15-20pts each?

Not a huge fan of going past 2 per 5 (doesn't seem to be the SM way), but the more that can take it the more it would need to cost. At least 20 per AC that way.

Bharring wrote:
Not a huge fan of going past 2 per 5 (doesn't seem to be the SM way), but the more that can take it the more it would need to cost. At least 20 per AC that way.

No, the AC is already overcosted. If the storm bolter is replaced with a weapon that isn't worthless, they can have zero heavy weapons as far as I'm concerned.

"(doesn't seem to be the SM way"

That's because the SM are stupid fools and deserve to lose.

Then don't play SM?

It'd be like making Orks BS4 and fielded with small, elite disciplined units. It just wouldn't be Orks anymore.

Bharring wrote:
Then don't play SM?

It'd be like making Orks BS4 and fielded with small, elite disciplined units. It just wouldn't be Orks anymore.

I disagree, but that's a common occurrence with us. Giving a marine squad an effective amount of firepower instead of an ineffective doesn't change the theme of the army. It just makes that unit no longer a liability.

There is a world of difference between a squad having reasonable firepower and every model in a squad having reasonable firepower.

Bharring wrote:
There is a world of difference between a squad having reasonable firepower and every model in a squad having reasonable firepower.

As it turns out, there kinda isn't. You count stormbolters as mattering. I have 20 years of play that say they don't count at all, especially now.

Everyone acts like terminators were a thing back in 2nd. They were, but only for SW (who could guess what? give them all ACs) and Chaos (who could guess what? make squads of blaster master and reaper autocannon terminators). Guess whose terminators were garbage? You guessed it! The ones stuck with stormbolters and a single heavy. Yeah, the CML could throw one single huge template, but they could only do it once.

The point is that terminators were effective when they had firepower people cared about. And there were plenty of ways to make terminators go away even rolling two dice with a 3+. Krak missiles had an armor save of -6 before plasma took their job for some stupid reason, example.

So you're claiming, for example, 6E grav bike squads as troops sucked because two guys had just a TL Boltgun?

Or Seer Councils are trash because most members are just ML1?

Or is Buffmander not a problem, because the gun drones in his unit don't have the firepower the Crisis Suits do?

There are plenty of examples where the sum of the whole is better than the weakest member of a squad.

Bharring wrote:
So you're claiming, for example, 6E grav bike squads as troops sucked because two guys had just a TL Boltgun?

Or Seer Councils are trash because most members are just ML1?

Or is Buffmander not a problem, because the gun drones in his unit don't have the firepower the Crisis Suits do?

There are plenty of examples where the sum of the whole is better than the weakest member of a squad.

My claims are specific to terminators. I didn't claim anything that you said I claimed. My claim is about 20 years of watching loyalist terminators fail. Even Chaos terminators at least still have a job because they are cheaper and deliver combi-meltas.

Their equipment load out actually causes terminators to be less than the sum of their parts. Which is their whole problem. Of course there are plenty of units where this is not true. But I'm not talking about those units.

What you're claiming is that the firepower of the entire unit can't be reasonable if not every model in the unit has reasonable firepower.

I was trying to demonstrate cases that showed that was not the case.

Imagine this scenario: Two Termies per 5 get the 'Super Martel Special' AC. 36" range, heavy 10. The others are stuck with Storm Bolters. Whole 5man unit clocks in at 200 points. Would you still say they'd suck?

Furthermore, Termies should not have more firepower per point than units with half their survivability and a quarter or less the CC capability. Certainly they shouldn't pay the full sum of all their gear, but they shouldn't pay only for their most expensive piece either.

Bharring wrote:
Furthermore, Termies should not have more firepower per point than units with half their survivability and a quarter or less the CC capability. Certainly they shouldn't pay the full sum of all their gear, but they shouldn't pay only for their most expensive piece either.

If the hypothetical unit was a Troops choice (and thus got OS) and much more mobile than Terminators (thus multiplying the value of OS) then yes, there's a case for making Terminators put out more firepower per point.

Even if said unit is considered bonkers OP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why should Terminators be autowin against everything? That's what I don't get.

Or do you have reason to believe having more firepower/pt than ScatterBikes would somehow not be autowin vs most armies?

Bharring wrote:
Even if said unit is considered bonkers OP?

If the point is to make a competetive unit without changing half the game? Certainly. The other option is to nerf stuff back to a level we're more comfortable with, but that requires much more changes, and would still leave Terminators awful.

It wouldn't fix the game.

Think of the matchups.

New Termies vs Scatter Bikes?
Termies win (writeup is up thread - Scatter Bikes can only win in Eternal War if they go second, and there are lots of objectives, and even then its iffy. Otherwise, Termies win almost by default).

Scatter Bikes vs most other lists?
ScatterBikes win.

Termies vs most other lists?
Termies win.

Basically, you're just shifting "ScatterBikes > most lists" to "Terminators > most lists". Only Termies win by a much, much wider margin. And against many more foes.

Currently, a DE vs BA game isn't ruined the way a DE vs ScatterBike Spam game is. Most matchups don't include Scatter Bikes. But going from Scatter > Other to Termies > Scatter > Other, far more games are autowin.

Essentially, just picking a new winner doesn't help anything. But it does further stratify things, making frequency of autowins much higher. Doing so with a bottom-tier unit isn't as damaging as doing so with a middle-tier unit, but it still do much more damage than good.