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I have been playing chaos marines for about 4 years now and as time goes on i just feel weaker and weaker. The Khorne book brought some fun things to the table and I think made assault pretty viable again but I don't really feel like it got the same love that the loyalists are geting aswell as the eldar. Im on the verge of shelving my chaos and starting another army for the time being (have wanted a second army for a while anyway) I just wanted to see if anyone had some tricks they've been pulling with chaos.

The trick is to wait until we get a new codex.

yea, but who knows how long that will be, especially with age of sigmar just around the corner.

CSM are doing pretty good in mellee rush lists with psy support.
Infiltration lists with Ahriman/Huron, escape hatch lists with Kharn, speedy lists with spawns and dogs, dreadklaw with something choppy too.
Cypher helps a lot.

My favorite list (that does great) is Ahriman + Cypher + 20 marines + support + daemon allies for summoning.

I've been having more fun with my Red Corsairs than I ever had with my Eldar. Huron, a Terminator Lord of Slannesh, some Chosen with MoS in the colors of the Salamanders, Black Legion, Black Dragons, Sons of Orar and I'm on the hunt for a Novamarine, Bikes in the colors of Astral Claws and soon some White Scars, Noise Marines and a bunch of regular CSM with CCW and MoK to make them a significant threat. They've been the most usable tarpit I've come across. Using as few 'Chaos-y' parts as possible and sticking with simple things like Obliterators and such has been doing me very well in casual games.

It's not my most powerful army, but I find myself using them more often than anything else simply because it's fun to field. Having an army with many colors is really a joy to see on the table. Put in an order for some Night Lords, might pick up Fabius Bile for more CSM buffs and will grab some Hell Blades as 'pirate air support'.

Not to mention having some Astral Claws in the ranks open me up to actually play Astral Claws out of the Loyalist codex when I do want power, and Tyrant's Legion out of IA:9 when I want absolutely none. A swap of a heretic Terminator with Autocannon to an Astral Claw with Assault Cannon and that Terminator Lord with the Burning Brand and Claw is now Lugft Huron before his defeat. Add some Imperial Guard and you have another army list. Or, add them to Red Corsairs and you have IA:13 Heretics to play with.

It keeps me very interested off the table, which just means more fun on it. Just planning the army and what to paint in what color has been great.

 sykl wrote:
yea, but who knows how long that will be, especially with age of sigmar just around the corner.

Isn't that a good reason to try a new army?^^ I wouldn't expect anything major in the chaos line until the next proper csm codex. I'm expecting the next few daemonkin codices to be as weak as the khorne one. And I'm not referring to power here. It's just a really poor release of a new army. No new models, no new rules, just a but a of codex shuffling without any real work going into it. The blood tithe system is pretty cool and all but still, overall it just screams lazy to me. Though supposedly we're getting new units with tzeentch daemonkin so who knows.

As for marines as they are, I find that IA:13 injected a healthy dose of revival into the dex. Dreadclaws, rapier batteriees, sicarans, fire raptors, they all change our game quite significantly and look awesome to boot.
enough new toys to keep me busy until my legion of choice is chaosified in the heresy books (I hope lol)

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The trick is to wait until we get a new codex.

Which will be valid for about a month, and then the loyalists will get a slew of updates to nerf C:CSM into oblivion again.

Roknar wrote:

 sykl wrote:
yea, but who knows how long that will be, especially with age of sigmar just around the corner.

Isn't that a good reason to try a new army?^^ I wouldn't expect anything major in the chaos line until the next proper csm codex. I'm expecting the next few daemonkin codices to be as weak as the khorne one. And I'm not referring to power here. It's just a really poor release of a new army. No new models, no new rules, just a but a of codex shuffling without any real work going into it. The blood tithe system is pretty cool and all but still, overall it just screams lazy to me. Though supposedly we're getting new units with tzeentch daemonkin so who knows.

As for marines as they are, I find that IA:13 injected a healthy dose of revival into the dex. Dreadclaws, rapier batteriees, sicarans, fire raptors, they all change our game quite significantly and look awesome to boot.
enough new toys to keep me busy until my legion of choice is chaosified in the heresy books (I hope lol)

Hello, bloodthirsters got a well-deserved good new model. 3 of them.

And daemonkin are pretty good. They're a decent khornate army.

By models I actually meant units lol, got me there^^. Though I wouldn't count 3 different loadouts as different models.

The army is pretty decent, I wasn't trying to say it was bad. Just really lazy design wise. It's copy paste from 2 codices, when they could have done so much more. Even just something as small as new/changed weapon options. Or point adjustments.

I mean, it's pretty huge for csm standards, but comparing to the other codices that have come out lately?...It's not quite up to the same standards. Again, not in terms of how good the army is. I just can't help but feel wanting when I go over the codex. It feels more like what supplements should have been than a new army. A pretty sweet supplement at that but yea.

People can think and exclaim "But you got Khorne Daemonkin, your glass if half full!" When it comes to Chaos Space Marines as a faction, but reality bites us all in the ass relatively harshly, CSM are garbage for anything that isn't "Fluff" based.

If we as customers are expected to purchase a $160 book from FW just to gain access to models loyalists have with less effects, JUST to become a moderate threat, then you KNOW said faction is bad.

And I'm one of those people. I paid the money sink, I bout the book, I bought the models. I have my Typhon, my Fire Raptor, Kharybdis and Dreadclaws. They STILL don't make the army good compared to the plethora of other factions.

We should wait until our next codex gets released? Why? Just so we can find out we once again don't have legion tactics or benefits? So they can continue to pigeon hole us into Nurgle? Where's my EW Daemon Princes? Where are my Gargantuan Creatures? (Bloodthirsters, Lords of Change, Keepers of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones)

I love my CSM to death, but they need serious help. Help we aren't going to find until the end of 7th Edition if at all. They need things like points decreases on Forgefiends and range increases on Ectoplasma Cannons. Defilers need to become good and actually viable. Khorne Berzerkers need love and rule tweaks, Thousand Sons and Tzeentch in general need GOOD spells...

This might be a big shock to some of you, but the best dex for CSM already exists and it is called Daemonkin Nurgle! published in 2012!!!

Where's my EW Daemon Princes?

Black Legion supplement has a relic with eternal warrior, give that to your demon prince?

Back to the OP question about any tricks we've been running with Chaos...

I love my chaos marines even though they are what they are. I just make sure to add a sorcerer to almost every squad. My 2 base units that I start most lists with are just a 300 point block of 9 CSM w/ bolter, pistol, ccw and a lvl 2 biomancy sorcerer w/spell familiar and force axe in a Rhino w/dozer blade. I usually take 2 of those.

OR

I pretend like my CSM don't worship the Codex Astartes and just go unbound instead. That way I can take Havoks instead of Chaos Marine squads. 4x special weapons or make them into double tac squads and throw 2 special and 2 heavy weapons on them.

Either way I use as many sorcerers as I can. The force axe makes them a posible threat to anything in CC and depending on what spells you get, it opens up a lot of stuff. I actually really like raptors, just as with the CSM you kind of need a sorcerer or a lord in there.

Noise marines are also great assault troops, as far as marines go, as they have access to a str 5 ap3 flamer.

Also, heavy bolters. 40 points is a quad bolter from IA:13

115 points is 4 heavy bolter marines (5 man havok squad). In games where I've had a lot of sorcerers (ie: a good chance of getting endurance), 10 marines (havoks) with 4 heavy bolters makes me smile.

Close combat chosen are also epic. Max squad w/MoS or MoK, champ w/powersword, 2 powerfists and 2 power swords.

My tricks involve savy deployment and placing terrain and objectives with my army make-up in mind.

The Hellcult formation has performed very well every time I have taken it. Helbrute with a plasma cannon plus two squads of fearless cultists granting a 3+ cover save to the Helbrute can be a serious distraction that helps the rest of the army do what it needs to do. I always ally my marines with demons though, love those soul grinders.

I recently got back into Chaos and I kind of had Nurgle handed to me.

This is one idea I had.

Nurgle Lord on bike, with BBoS, Sigil, GoM, and LC. T6 is no laughing matter, the Brand rocks anyway you cut it. The Sigil prevents jinking and thus snap firing. The LC makes use of the Lords sweet I5 and with the GoM you can always hope for a strength bonus.

I have yet to field him as when I did play Chaos full time I was a Khorne guy. All this Nurgle stuff is new to me so...

I'm planning on running MSU Plague Marines and keeping everything relatively simple. Maybe not the best, but at least I should be hard to kill. The Nurgle Lord should incite enough rage to let the rest of my army do its thing...

You'll have more use of a power fist rather than a LC. Ideally, both for +1a and versatility

Yeah but you trade a weapon for the brand, plus T6 and the brand is cheese enough.

The LC is just there to have something worth swinging at I5

T6 and 3+/4++ will allow you to not be afraid of striking at i1 most of the time. But often 3-4 s4ap3 attacks even with shred are not enough to do stuff.

Hmm, true enough. I forgot that we were looking for the best possible, I'm still thinking of acceptable cheese levels.

At any rate I'm not one to argue that the Bike weapon can be exchanged for another weapon. To me that is a bit much.

But if you're going for max use, then yeah a PF&LC combo is hard to beat...

 koooaei wrote:
T6 and 3+/4++ will allow you to not be afraid of striking at i1 most of the time. But often 3-4 s4ap3 attacks even with shred are not enough to do stuff.

Not to mention potential ID of different targets.

You should see my 9 tzeentch oblit army with 3 terminator sorcs and 10 spawn army in action.

It is so powerful it implodes occasionally.

I'm running this tomorrow against a Ravenwing list with Imperial Knight.

Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, Aura, Axe of Blind Fury
10 CSM, 2 plasma gun, combi-plasma, rhino, havoc, dirge
10 CSM, 2 meltagun, combi-melta, rhino, havoc, dirge
5 Khorne Spawn
5 Nurgle Spawn
Heldrake
Sicaran with heavy bolters
Vindicator Laser Destroyer, dozer blade
Typhon, armored ceramite, dirge

I know that's three forgeworld models, but I play a lot of forgeworld in my loyalist armies also. The Ravenwing will have no answer for the Typhon except for his Imperial knight in close combat. The Laser Destroyer and Melta squad will have to see to it the Knight doesn't get to the Typhon. I'm interested in seeing how it works out.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I'm running this tomorrow against a Ravenwing list with Imperial Knight.

Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, Aura, Axe of Blind Fury
10 CSM, 2 plasma gun, combi-plasma, rhino, havoc, dirge
10 CSM, 2 meltagun, combi-melta, rhino, havoc, dirge
5 Khorne Spawn
5 Nurgle Spawn
Heldrake
Sicaran with heavy bolters
Vindicator Laser Destroyer, dozer blade
Typhon, armored ceramite, dirge

I know that's three forgeworld models, but I play a lot of forgeworld in my loyalist armies also. The Ravenwing will have no answer for the Typhon except for his Imperial knight in close combat. The Laser Destroyer and Melta squad will have to see to it the Knight doesn't get to the Typhon. I'm interested in seeing how it works out.

I just finished against a Ravenwing army. They had two units of black Knights, one with apothecary and banner, one unit of bikes, 4 individual mm attack bikes, shrouded skimmer, Sam, 3 bike librarians as part of the conclave and a Knight Paladin. We played a funky AWC mission that takes flavor from NOVA and ITC.

I went first and after the mm attack bikes scouted up to my vindicator laser destroyer, they siezed on me and blew the laser array off. The Knight was in my face and my best weapon for destroying it was gone. The Typhon killed 2 mm attack bikes and started picking off 2-3 black Knights. I used the weapon less vindicator laser destroyer and the Nurgle spawn to box in the knight paladin as it went for my Typhoon. The secondary objectives were nice to me and I was ahead on points mid game.

Samuel and the Khorne Lord mutually destroyed each other over a few turns of combat and my spawn were whittled away by black Knights. Meanwhile the cultists and plasma CSM squad were jumping objectives. I wasn't able to get primary (kill the LOW) and he did (killed my LOW), but with first blood and a healthy lead in secondary objectives I got a tie.

I think if I wasn't siezed on by an Army which scouted into my face, I could have pulled out the win. We talked about about me adding in the chaos Legacy of Glory which allows me to reroll my sieze or force my opponent to reroll their sieze, but I think getting siezed on is rare enough that I won't invest the 20pts to get it. Plus I could have done a better job of deploying to mitigate a possible sieze.

The dirge casters were big this game. They prevented the black Knights from firing those twin-linked plasma guns as BS 2 twice as I charged in with spawn.

 darkcloak wrote:
Hmm, true enough. I forgot that we were looking for the best possible, I'm still thinking of acceptable cheese levels.

At any rate I'm not one to argue that the Bike weapon can be exchanged for another weapon. To me that is a bit much.

But if you're going for max use, then yeah a PF&LC combo is hard to beat...

You can still swap out his krak / frag grenades for something as they are weapons.

Where are you gettgin this from? At the back of the rulebook you have 3 sections..ranged WEAPONS, melee WEAPONS and grenades. Would seem to indicate they are just that, grenades and nothing else

Chaos codex back page under ranged weapons.

A few Chaos tricks I found to be really useful:

- At 50pts for 10 models, your cultists are very decent OS units. Just reserve them or find them a suitable cover. Sit and win.
- Khorne lord on juggernaut, 4++, axe of blind fury and GoM. This guy is insane in close combat and has a ridiculously low cost in points for what he does. A very worthy contender for the best lord setup title.
- Lvl 3 sorcerers on bikes with spell familiars are very, very good support units.
- Units of 5 spawn are a must imho with either no mark (for jugger lord) or nurgle (otherwise).
- Maulerfiends are still amazing. At 125 points, they are a steal for their mobility and devastating close combat attacks. 5++ from daemon usr plus the daemonforge just add the cherry on top.
- Though expensive, plague marines are incredibly durable and pack a kit that can take on almost anything. T5, 3+ and FNP is awesome! If you make them OS with a nurgle lord, their rhinos are OS too. With the rise of OS/MSU lists, these may become more important for us, at least until the new dex comes out later this year.
- 10x slaaneshi bikers with IoE. Throw a lord and a sorcerer in there and you get a deathstar that won't shy away from taking on others (and probably for less).

cbteom wrote:
A few Chaos tricks I found to be really useful:
...
- 10x slaaneshi bikers with IoE. Throw a lord and a sorcerer in there and you get a deathstar that won't shy away from taking on others (and probably for less).

If you really want to abuse the hell out of this, go with Crimson Slaughter put Daemonheart on the Lord for 2+ and IWND (and possibly The Slaughterer's Horns for Furious Charge and Rage) and Balestar of Mannon on the Sorcerer for some sweet Divination and you don't need a spell familiar to reroll psychic tests. The sheer amount of firepower that will be dedicated to putting this down is nothing short of hilarious with the Lord having 2+/4++ as well as Jink, FNP and IWND... or at least it was until the Fire Nat... ahem, Strength D started becoming so damn prevalent

Crimson Slaughter can give you a squad of Chosen with PE making Plasma Chosen cackle in glee. Also Slaves to the Voices chart makes Possessed somewhat decent.

(IMO, with a few tweaks, they probably could have made this a Word Bearer's supplement)

 King Pariah wrote:

cbteom wrote:
A few Chaos tricks I found to be really useful:
...
- 10x slaaneshi bikers with IoE. Throw a lord and a sorcerer in there and you get a deathstar that won't shy away from taking on others (and probably for less).

If you really want to abuse the hell out of this, go with Crimson Slaughter

Yes, absolutely.
I did not mention them beause the discussion was about the CSM codex but they really add a lot of options to playing CSM.
And I agree, this could easily have been a Word Bearers supplement with a few tweaks.

In all honesty if we could just get our 4th edition legion tactics back I would be happy.