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Couldn't you just run the character with the unit?
There is no rule for joining/leaving a unit.. the movement rules are pretty loose.

Thanks
austin

 Redbad wrote:
Couldn't you just run the character with the unit?
There is no rule for joining/leaving a unit.. the movement rules are pretty loose.

Thanks
austin

Even if he is slap bang inside the unit, he only needs to be "seen" for ranged attacks to pick him out.

I'm playing some games later to get a better idea, but from the outset it looks like characters don't have much protection

Shooting attacks seem to mostly cap at 20" range and heroes have alot more wounds.

 Redbad wrote:
Couldn't you just run the character with the unit?
There is no rule for joining/leaving a unit.. the movement rules are pretty loose.

Thanks
austin

Pg 1: WARSCROLLS & UNITS " Models fight in a unit. A unit can have one or more models, but cannot include models that use a different warscoll."


So no Heroes MUST be solo.


How do you defend against this? Easy! Keep them slightly behind of units and make those other units Feel more Threatening.

Hope that helped.

 Mythantor wrote:
Shooting attacks seem to mostly cap at 20" range and heroes have alot more wounds.

Yes after playing the game today I can see this is the case.

Cannons have become super character snipers though, being able to do 12 wounds potentially.

To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

So in all the history of all the wars you never heard of Commanders/Generals being protected?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

So in all the history of all the wars you never heard of Commanders/Generals being protected?

Yeh but generally they sat at the back. History is full of example of commanders that went to the front and got sniped.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

So in all the history of all the wars you never heard of Commanders/Generals being protected?

Yeah, the problem is that you have one little human dude dead center in the MIDDLE of a 30 man block. Alright, now, since they are seperate units, the character can be shot at, through all the other guys, no penalty. Unless "being seen" truly means having NOTHING in between the shooters and the target. Ahhh, GW vagueness...

 Mythantor wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

So in all the history of all the wars you never heard of Commanders/Generals being protected?

Yeh but generally they sat at the back. History is full of example of commanders that went to the front and got sniped.

Didnt say Everyone was protected, just saying it is a thing and we should be able to Protect our special characters if we wanted.

Hi Bottle, thanks for your insight from actual gameplay.

 Bottle wrote:
Unless your hero stays behind a solid wall all game, how can you keep them safe?

This is an issue I'm intimate with from playing 40k Kill Team, and so are you from playing Necromunda. Our heroes, these characters, are more like martyrs that are simply sniped, like in those skirmish games. It's for these reasons one never makes a target too attractive, don't overload your Gang Leader with too much wargear, etc. Amishprn86's idea of putting a scarier unit in front is sound, one good solution.

I'm also thinking that another good solution, Bottle, is what you already mentioned: put them behind solid walls...but it doesn't have to be the same wall. A high-speed model that's technically infantry to hide behind walls (as being on a steed makes you more visible) can hop from cover-to-cover, out of line-of-sight. An example would be Vampire Lords; they can fly 10" but are basically foot troops.

And the idea is you don't take 1 of them. Since AoS doesn't have any restrictions, you just take a horde of Vampire Lords, an army made purely of characters that are multi-wounded and have a small footprint to hide behind terrain, then fly a long distance to charge. Since there are no templates in this game, these easy-to-hide character models are more survivable than large infantry blobs that are easily targetted.

We're still exploring the game, it's early days yet, but IMHO maybe just having many, many fast characters on foot are the way to go with the way the AoS rules work.

 flamingwalnut wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

So in all the history of all the wars you never heard of Commanders/Generals being protected?

Yeah, the problem is that you have one little human dude dead center in the MIDDLE of a 30 man block. Alright, now, since they are seperate units, the character can be shot at, through all the other guys, no penalty. Unless "being seen" truly means having NOTHING in between the shooters and the target. Ahhh, GW vagueness...

simple

roll a d6 on a 5+ the hero is hit on anything else the people surrounding him are hit..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

its a lot better than having a hero part of a unit, than get shot at by another unit right in front of him only to have to remove units from the back as though bullets phased through him... and hit the units right at the back of the line

To be fair that general hiding in the middle of a unit on a napoleonic battlefield was easy to pick out and fire at.....he was pretty obvious in his extra fancy officers clothes. Of course I think they tended to have a general rule of not intentionally killing officers back then (what with them being nobility and the nobility of Europe mostly being related to everyone else like one giant inbred cluster....ahem) Wasn't really until the revolutionary war you saw the deliberate targeting of officers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 BigOws wrote:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, why should characters be protected? It may be that this was done on purpose to prevent overloading in characters in a persons army? Also, as Muthantor says, they have a lot more wounds now!

So in all the history of all the wars you never heard of Commanders/Generals being protected?

Of course they were. But on the same note im pretty sure every arrow fired at a general didn't kill every one of their bodyguard before they started hitting him. Of course people will still want to protect their commanders but now people will have to think of more inventive ways rather than putting them in a big unit to effectively give them extra wounds. They seem to have plenty now anyway! If a big shiny general in a massive steed was galloping towards your lines I'm pretty sure a cannon is going to want to focus a shot or two at them!

 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:
Hi Bottle, thanks for your insight from actual gameplay.

 Bottle wrote:
Unless your hero stays behind a solid wall all game, how can you keep them safe?

This is an issue I'm intimate with from playing 40k Kill Team, and so are you from playing Necromunda. Our heroes, these characters, are more like martyrs that are simply sniped, like in those skirmish games. It's for these reasons one never makes a target too attractive, don't overload your Gang Leader with too much wargear, etc. Amishprn86's idea of putting a scarier unit in front is sound, one good solution.

I will say it is a far bit easier in Necromunda to protect, as due to the closest target rules you can put a juve in front to avoid your leader being shot.

In one game of AoS I shot a goblin shaman through a unit of goblins as I could "see" him which is the only requirement.

Although is that a problem, now I think about it? It was with my Hochland Long Rifle, so it seemed quite cool to be able to snipe a character with it.

I'm also thinking that another good solution, Bottle, is what you already mentioned: put them behind solid walls...but it doesn't have to be the same wall. A high-speed model that's technically infantry to hide behind walls (as being on a steed makes you more visible) can hop from cover-to-cover, out of line-of-sight. An example would be Vampire Lords; they can fly 10" but are basically foot troops.

And the idea is you don't take 1 of them. Since AoS doesn't have any restrictions, you just take a horde of Vampire Lords, an army made purely of characters that are multi-wounded and have a small footprint to hide behind terrain, then fly a long distance to charge. Since there are no templates in this game, these easy-to-hide character models are more survivable than large infantry blobs that are easily targetted.

We're still exploring the game, it's early days yet, but IMHO maybe just having many, many fast characters on foot are the way to go with the way the AoS rules work.

Yes! I'm thinking the more character the more fun the game is. And also the more terrain the more fun the game is. See my "Fun Ideas for AoS" thread and I've tried to explore some ideas for Hero Armies as I think they could be super fun to play with and against!

 Bottle wrote:
I will say it is a far bit easier in Necromunda to protect, as due to the closest target rules you can put a juve in front to avoid your leader being shot.

You're absolutely right, and in my last AoS game I was playing Dwarfs with a cannon just to test this out in the field. It was really only sportsmanship/forging a narrative that prevented me from shooting into certain units, but the RAW gives a lot of leeway to shooting it seems. It's a tough call, but yeah, I'm guessing the best option is to have multiple characters.

 Bottle wrote:
Yes! I'm thinking the more character the more fun the game is. And also the more terrain the more fun the game is. See my "Fun Ideas for AoS" thread and I've tried to explore some ideas for Hero Armies as I think they could be super fun to play with and against!

Yeah, I'm really starting to think that too. It's like for the reasons in this thread, as well as the general usefulness of Heroes in their own right and to buff units, that we'll take more of them than anything else.

Yes because of the multiple wounds characters now have there is much more scope to try RPG party tactics. For example I'm going to be buying Alarielle from the High Elves for my Empire (Order) army. She can heal D6 wounds in the magic phase on a character within 20". I think that sort of synergy will be really exciting to play with.

 Bottle wrote:
Unless I am missing something, characters are really easy to snipe kill in this game with missile fire.

There is no way to attach them to a unit. In the shooting phase any unit can be targeted so long as it is in range and can be seen. This includes shooting into hand to hand combat.

Unless your hero stays behind a solid wall all game, how can you keep them safe?

Any ideas?

As they are a "unit" they cannot hide.

However, wasting a whole unit of firing to one model could be a waste if something else is heading your way.

It's why the lowest hero wound count I've seen is 5 (seems to be the most common).

EDIT: Plus what you said about heroes everywhere.

ShaneTB wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Unless I am missing something, characters are really easy to snipe kill in this game with missile fire.

There is no way to attach them to a unit. In the shooting phase any unit can be targeted so long as it is in range and can be seen. This includes shooting into hand to hand combat.

Unless your hero stays behind a solid wall all game, how can you keep them safe?

Any ideas?

As they are a "unit" they cannot hide.

However, wasting a whole unit of firing to one model could be a waste if something else is heading your way.

It's why the lowest hero wound count I've seen is 5 (seems to be the most common).

EDIT: Plus what you said about heroes everywhere.

Yep, this question was asked before I had played the game. In the first game I played. My bright wizard took a spear chukka to the chest. Should have seen the opponent's reaction when I told him he still had 3/5 wounds remaining ;-)

Cannons are still ridiculous character snipers though!

Having read the rules for Shadowblade I have no idea how you prevent your character being taken out by the master Dark Elf assassin.