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Something that some havent notice (Dont worry I know some of you have) And MANY didnt realize.

A unit "No Matter how weak or Strong" will Always to hit/to wound on the Same roll Vs EVERY OTHER unit in the game.

A Night Goblin can "Wound" A Bloodthirster the same as another Night Goblin.

The Difference is 2 times, The Bigger Scarier models have Rend, But the Night Goblins (lets say you have 30 In a unit) You may be losing, But your unit doesnt Run or go away, You simply just remove 1 Night Goblin.

So a unit of Night Goblins Not having Rend is that game Changing? no.... Just means you will Lose 2-5 Goblins a Turn (this is counting a Fleeing one you might have) where you might only Wound the Bloodthirster 2-4x.

Some of the More unbalanced things comes from unit size and Wizards. From what Im seeing LARGE units (70-80 models) in a Single unit vs another Player playing the Same army and Same amount of Models, BUT playing them in MSU would lose b.c How the Battleshock rules are.



EDIT: About MSU vs large units, A better look.

If I had 1 Unit of 50 and you had 5 units of 10 (50 models each) For now lets say they all are the Same Models, Night Goblins.

If you charge 5 of your units into my 1 unit and When we look at Battleshock, if I lose battle Shock I lose 1 Model for each point over (but b.c my unit is LARGE I subtrack a number).

If you lose battleshock from Multi units, You DONT HAVE the 10+ or more models Bonus and in the End lose more models due to Battle Shock.

Having a 10man unit vs a 20man unit, If both of you lose 3 Points from Battleshock, The 20man unit will only lose 2 Models instead of the 3 models. In the Long run this will make you on average lose more models. (If playing balanced unit vs Balanced unit).

Another aspect is that the sudden death criteria can happen at anytime. Not just the beginning of the game.

 sfshilo wrote:
Another aspect is that the sudden death criteria can happen at anytime. Not just the beginning of the game.

Can it? My understanding is it only happens at the start of you are outnumbered a 1/3.

Edit: Yep. Sudden Death can only be declared at the start of the game. Not mid way through.

 Bottle wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Another aspect is that the sudden death criteria can happen at anytime. Not just the beginning of the game.

Can it? My understanding is it only happens at the start of you are outnumbered a 1/3.

You know what, reading it isn't really clear, but it seems to be fair. Something to agree with your opponent before the game begins but if you're getting trashed that hard, it can really give you a fighting chance.

Plus, it makes sense to me. Your force of Empire Soldiers meet a gathering Orc Waaagh! in battle and end up getting trounced. They realize that if they kill the Warboss, the Waaagh! will dissipate... for at least a while... and redirect all their efforts towards slaying the fiend.

Forge that narrative!

Nice to see the doomsayers and frothers haven't stopped by in here. Sounds like an interesting game mechanic.

Rihgu wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Another aspect is that the sudden death criteria can happen at anytime. Not just the beginning of the game.

Can it? My understanding is it only happens at the start of you are outnumbered a 1/3.

You know what, reading it isn't really clear, but it seems to be fair. Something to agree with your opponent before the game begins but if you're getting trashed that hard, it can really give you a fighting chance.

Plus, it makes sense to me. Your force of Empire Soldiers meet a gathering Orc Waaagh! in battle and end up getting trounced. They realize that if they kill the Warboss, the Waaagh! will dissipate... for at least a while... and redirect all their efforts towards slaying the fiend.

Forge that narrative!

That sounds fun to me, but just saying it is a deviation from the rules. Sudden Death is part of the pregame set up before generals are chosen. :-)

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Nice to see the doomsayers and frothers haven't stopped by in here. Sounds like an interesting game mechanic.

I actually like the new play style Alot and looking forward to finding a Simply way of balance to enjoy "pick up games"

Knowing what is OP and Game breaking IMO is the 1st step to making a better/more friendly game. I LOVE reading rules and finding that crazy thing, I learn from it and then Move away from it

Knowing how the Game mechanics work I will be able to have a more fun/balanced game

I personally find this to be another fault. It just doesnt sit well with me. I preferred the tables, they just made more sense.

The thing I don't understand about this game. If someone can tell me because maybe I overlooked it.

Everything is just a model for the purposes of counting who is outnumbered right? You can have as many models as you want yada yada.

So does that mean that an army of 30 goblins outnumbers an army of 20 bloodthirsters? They have 10 more models...but certainly are the under dogs here.

bob82ca wrote:
So does that mean that an army of 30 goblins outnumbers an army of 20 bloodthirsters? They have 10 more models...but certainly are the under dogs here.

And the 20 Bloodthirsters will declare Sudden Death at the start of the game.

bob82ca wrote:
The thing I don't understand about this game. If someone can tell me because maybe I overlooked it.

Everything is just a model for the purposes of counting who is outnumbered right? You can have as many models as you want yada yada.

So does that mean that an army of 30 goblins outnumbers an army of 20 bloodthirsters? They have 10 more models...but certainly are the under dogs here.

This to me is the largest flaw in the rules. That said, if someone went out of their way to buy 20 Bloodthirsters for this game, they might beat your 30 night goblins, but they're losing a different and more important game.

 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:

bob82ca wrote:
So does that mean that an army of 30 goblins outnumbers an army of 20 bloodthirsters? They have 10 more models...but certainly are the under dogs here.

And the 20 Bloodthirsters will declare Sudden Death at the start of the game.

Yeah, I mean this leaves the army balancing in the hands of the players. Problem is that a competitive player is going to always try to have an advantage and 1 up you. My brother for instance would have his army ahead (and just argue that it is even).

Also another flaw that someone mentioned is that distances are measured from the model and not their base. So larger models will sometimes never be able to get in range to attack lol. You would have to revert to measuring from the base otherwise you would be screwed.

I haven't played any games yet but the rules seem really overlooked and bad.

Anybody in your unit can be standard bearer.......take whatever upgrades you want....have as many guys as you want. ok.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
A unit "No Matter how weak or Strong" will Always to hit/to wound on the Same roll Vs EVERY OTHER unit in the game.

Yeah, that's a fair point. In fact, all fair points, Battleshock in conjunction with this is important as well.

This makes the very high-end models more vulnerable. It looks like medium-level characters, Heroes, or some elite units that can be fielded in units of 1 look optimal, then, because they're just a little bit more survivable than the rank & file, yet they operate in units of 1 so no need for a Battleshock test. Thanks for sharing.

Fun note on Standard Bearers and Musicians I noticed. There is no limit to how many you take in a unit. However the way the rules read you only get the bonus from one, so having 4 Standard Bearers doesnt give you +4 Bravery, but gives you redundancy.

Sure is a shame GW wrote a simple rule system who's biggest question's can be easily answered by two opponents have a respectful discussion regarding game balance and coming to a mutual agreement without the need for someone to handhold you through the whole process because you are to immature to handle such a simple human interaction.

This game isn't meant for competitive play, GW has made it abundantly clear they don't care for it and the games meant to be played for fun. If you INSIST on it being a competitive game where you need someone else to balance games for you...then wait a few months as I'm sure dozens of comp systems will appear to do just that....just like they did with 8th despite it being a much more robust rule system. Why should GW bother making competitive balanced rules if no one's going to actually use them...I mean look at Hobbit, one of the most balanced rule systems out there and no one wants it.

Erm this whole thing about measuring from the point on the model is getting tiresome. It. Does. Not. Matter.

Why? For sake of argument let's say I have converted my Bloodthirster so he is almost lying down, his arm stretched way out. I measure from the tip of the axe. That means to engage him the enemy models can shoot as soon as they are in range of the tip of the axe, or charge to within 1/2 inch of that tip.

On top of that I've made it harder for myself as I can't move through my own units in any way, and I have to avoid enemy units by 3" in the movement phase, which is harder as the footprint of the model is bigger. So by crazy modelling the only effect is I have a less maneuverable model.

Why would you take big units? It kind of seems better to take large, single models so as to secure the Sudden Death victory more frequently.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Why would you take big units? It kind of seems better to take large, single models so as to secure the Sudden Death victory more frequently.

For the fun of it.

There, I said the F word.

It's also harder to destroy large units.

So if your opponent stops deploying with their 10 Bloodthirsters in order to try and get an 'easy' Sudden Victory and not have fun, take a large unit and surround a hero in the back corner with it so that the hero can't be charged until the massive unit is destroyed. Good luck getting Blunt or Assassinate.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Why would you take big units? It kind of seems better to take large, single models so as to secure the Sudden Death victory more frequently.

Big units unlock abilities the larger they go, usually at 20 or 30 models. Additionally formation scrolls give more benefit if you increase the unit size of your grunts.

So there are fun options for large units too.

Personally I like fielding State Troopers in groups of 10 now :-p

riburn3 wrote:

bob82ca wrote:
The thing I don't understand about this game. If someone can tell me because maybe I overlooked it.

Everything is just a model for the purposes of counting who is outnumbered right? You can have as many models as you want yada yada.

So does that mean that an army of 30 goblins outnumbers an army of 20 bloodthirsters? They have 10 more models...but certainly are the under dogs here.

This to me is the largest flaw in the rules. That said, if someone went out of their way to buy 20 Bloodthirsters for this game, they might beat your 30 night goblins, but they're losing a different and more important game.

Exactly. I quite like the idea of armies facing off which aren't totally equal in terms of "points". Don't get me wrong, the points system was a good way of striving for an equal game but we all know that battles just don't work that way. How cool is it to be able to play an actual last ditch against all odds final stand type battle....and actually win! Granted, chances are you wont. But it'd be fun having a bash and there'll be lots of small little victories in the battle worth talking about. Think it all depends on the spirit that each player approaches the new rules with. Beside, players will doubtless work out their own house rules to balance games if necessary. That's part and parcel of the hobby as well surely?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Udo wrote:

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Why would you take big units? It kind of seems better to take large, single models so as to secure the Sudden Death victory more frequently.

For the fun of it.

There, I said the F word.

Here here

If one guy brings 50 and the other brings 200 I can only see one having fun, your going over 33% so you may as well go all out.