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 astro_nomicon wrote:
What about something like this:

Fateweaver
Nurgle Herald: ML2, FNP Locus, Grimoire
Nurgle Herald: ML2, Greater

10x Horrors
10x Horrors

6x Plague Drones w/ venom sting

Daemon Knight of Khorne

Be'lakor

10x Cultist

1850

Not to derail conversation, but honest question. Why do i often see belakor with CSM allies? Wouldn't Nurglings deepstriking with shroud be better with daemon allies?

 astro_nomicon wrote:

Yeah im not completely sold on that list either. Mass obsec spam (Gladius Mehreens), extremely mobile obsec (scatbikes) and lists toting a fair amount of D could all be potentially problematic. I mean a single 6 from the D table on Knight could put you in a bind.

While it is only two ground threats, those threats are both fast, the drone star has a pretty big foot print, which can be useful, and they are both insanely durable. I think its strength would really depend on the mission type (with Maelstrom primary being its most obvious shortcoming)

I made that list partially because of what models I own. Any thoughts on what could be a better hypothetical list? Drop Belakor for what else maybe?

Hmm, honestly, I have no experience playing a knight, nor constructing an army to fully utilize the knight's capabilities. My guess is that a knight would do very well in a khorne daemonkin army with dogrush along with bikers, spawn, and maulerfiends. I think it would do well with screamerstar, but the potency of screamerstar is questionable nowadays with all of these tough armies coming along like the ones you mentioned.

Belakor is nice, as is fatweaver, but that list really can't kill anything besides the knight shooting/charging a unit a turn and the psychic powers that come out of fateweaver and be'lakor
I would say a summoning army might do quite nice, and actually come to think of it, your list could do quite well for summoning. I might even add death of Kasyr Lutien on the knight so you can spam maelific powers left and right from fateweaver and that unit of plague drones... Not a bad idea come to think of it. Re-roll any dice for psychic powers and spam the hell out of summoning units.

You'd generate something like 11+d6 warp charge and you could reliably summon like 3+ units a turn given rerolls to individual dice. That would be pretty solid in my eyes. Spam daemonettes and see how much damage they can do while your invisible/grimoired units mop up

and @Breazeal yeah, you're 100% right. More wounds, more survivable, fearless, more mobile from deep strike. The reason for that is that Be'lakor has been around for a while now, normally you couldn't take an allied detachment of the same faction (so no Daemon CAD with Daemon allies). But the switch over to 7th edition and the explosion of detachments have changed that now you can. I guess most people haven't capitalized on that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I think a solid list might look like:
Be'lakor
2x 10 cultists
Daemon knight of Khorne w/ dirge caster and Death of Kasyr Lutien

Fateweaver
Nurgle Herald: ML2, FnP Locus, Grimoire
Nurgle Herald: ML2, Greater, Lesser

3 nurglings
11 pink horrors

5x plague drones w/ venom sting


That gives you 13+d6 dice to cast invisibility + any maelific powers.

It would look like 5-6 dice at invisibilty (if you needed it)
and 10 dice at maelific, which would mean 2-3 summons reliably popping out of that unit per turn

A Knight and Belakor is too many points in two models.

As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

DaPino wrote:
As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

The Reroll to hit of 1s applies to both close combat and shooting at lets you reroll the scatter die for its blast weapons. It also still gets the Daemon rule with it do has a 5++ as part of that 65 points.

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

The Reroll to hit of 1s applies to both close combat and shooting at lets you reroll the scatter die for its blast weapons. It also still gets the Daemon rule with it do has a 5++ as part of that 65 points.

Re roll 1's =\= re roll scatter die

Breazeal wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
What about something like this:

Fateweaver
Nurgle Herald: ML2, FNP Locus, Grimoire
Nurgle Herald: ML2, Greater

10x Horrors
10x Horrors

6x Plague Drones w/ venom sting

Daemon Knight of Khorne

Be'lakor

10x Cultist

1850

Not to derail conversation, but honest question. Why do i often see belakor with CSM allies? Wouldn't Nurglings deepstriking with shroud be better with daemon allies?

The straight 7th Edition allying rules prevent you from taking an Allied detachment that is the same faction as your primary detachment. So if you're taking Daemons primary, and you've used up your HQs with Fateweaver and Heralds as most people do, the only officia way to get Belakor is to take CSM allies OR another Daemon CAD. Allies with just one squad of cultists is cheaper. Depending on the tournament format you may be prevented from taking 2 CADs, or you may be allowed to ally with the same faction as your primary.

Re the list above: You're spending (300+350+425+135) points for that combo (Fateweaver + Belakor + Knight + Herald w grimoire) PLUS an additional 250pts in terribly weak troops. You end up with nearly 1500pts tied up, and you only have 2 threats on the board. Granted they're tough as all get out, but any savvy opponent will just spread out and win on objectives because you can't kill anything.


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Intercessor wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

The Reroll to hit of 1s applies to both close combat and shooting at lets you reroll the scatter die for its blast weapons. It also still gets the Daemon rule with it do has a 5++ as part of that 65 points.

Re roll 1's =\= re roll scatter die

This is a contentious point for some people in YMDC.

I really think the Walker should have had Hoof feet...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That Night Lords t-shirt!

Holy hockey puck.

The question I have is, does counting as a daemon aligned with "x" give the normal daemon of bonuses? So slaaneshi daemon knights running d6+3", nurgle daemon knights getting shrouded, or tzeench ones being able to reroll ones. Might explain the points difference a bit better.

Edit, never mind. Discussed on previous page, my phone just didn't load fast enough.

Shame they overpriced the Kytan like GW did with LoS......

love the leg conversion, too q_q

jSewell wrote:
Shame they overpriced the Kytan like GW did with LoS......

love the leg conversion, too q_q

The Kytan kinda highlights exactly HOW awful the Lord of Skulls was though. The most egregious thing about the LoS was that it was a hilariously overcosted Superheavy Walker with the most powerful benefit of that unit type (Stomp) completely removed for no apparent reason.

The Kytan just proves that if you gave it back Stomp--and dropped its cost by 350 points--it still wouldn't be very good. That's just an impressive level of terrible.

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

The Reroll to hit of 1s applies to both close combat and shooting at lets you reroll the scatter die for its blast weapons. It also still gets the Daemon rule with it do has a 5++ as part of that 65 points.

- Re-rolling ones for heavy stubbers? Greaaaaaat. /s
- I have zero clues as to why anyone would consider re-rolling 1's the same as re-rolling the scatter die.
- I know it applies to CC as well as shooting, I just think it's not worth it's points since Alligning with Khorne is just flat out the better option to have if you want to go into CC.
- I know you get a 5+ invul save, but the thing is, I get those with ALL allignments, not just Tzeentch and again, the benefits from the other gods are just flat out better.

DaPino wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

The Reroll to hit of 1s applies to both close combat and shooting at lets you reroll the scatter die for its blast weapons. It also still gets the Daemon rule with it do has a 5++ as part of that 65 points.

- Re-rolling ones for heavy stubbers? Greaaaaaat. /s
- I have zero clues as to why anyone would consider re-rolling 1's the same as re-rolling the scatter die.
- I know it applies to CC as well as shooting, I just think it's not worth it's points since Alligning with Khorne is just flat out the better option to have if you want to go into CC.
- I know you get a 5+ invul save, but the thing is, I get those with ALL allignments, not just Tzeentch and again, the benefits from the other gods are just flat out better.

The rules for blasts simply say if you have the ability to reroll to hit then you can reroll the scatter die. Rerolling ones is an ability to reroll to hit. That simple.

 CrownAxe wrote:

The rules for blasts simply say if you have the ability to reroll to hit then you can reroll the scatter die. Rerolling ones is an ability to reroll to hit. That simple.

Feels like a loophole due to ambiguous wording, but seeing the price tag it does look like that would be intended.

 n0t_u wrote:
I like how Kytan just looks like one of those lord of skulls to knight conversions you see around the net.

OMG!!! He has a cannon in his crotch!!!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Renegades count as CSM for allied chart purposes. Does this mean that my renegades can take a Knight without allying in CSM or Daemons?

Anyone had thoughts about this yet?

jSewell wrote:
Shame they overpriced the Kytan like GW did with LoS......

love the leg conversion, too q_q

it's a Knight Warden with Deamon, Fleet, Crusader, Rage, IWND, Deamonforge, and an additional 1 to it's init. as well as the useful ability to charge something else if it kills what it shot at (ok I suppose in fairness it lacks the heavy stubber but..)

with that in mind I'm not sure you can fully argue if it's over priced or not. thats a lot of abilities.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Renegades count as CSM for allied chart purposes. Does this mean that my renegades can take a Knight without allying in CSM or Daemons?

Anyone had thoughts about this yet?

I'd say not. Counting as an army for the purposes of allies doesn't mean you get that army's Lords of War choices

Righty ho. Was a long shot.

To be honest, tempted by a 'lance' of Kytans just because they looks so damn cool.

I like the Lord of Skulls' upper torso - my main complaint is that I neither mechanically nor aesthetically liked the tracks, and you could only ever field 2 in an 1875 force - rather than 3-5 knights depending on pattern. 3 Kytans will have a nice feel to them and can put up a reasonable fight.

I'll be honest, I really want them to do a subjugator now. I don't mind if it ends up being knight sized rather than titan sized, just make the damn thing.

Alternatively, a "four horsemen" lance - one daemon titan of each alignment.

I like the Kytan as well. Because of the looks, but definitely because of it's stats as well. I figure that the starting point of a Knight is good value. The Kytan costs 150 points more but has Daemon, IWND, Fleet and some improved CC stats. Especially Daemon is an upgrade with huge value because of Grimnoire and Cursed Earth. The other factors aren't negligible either.

I'm working with a list like this atm:

Fateweaver
HoT, ML3, Disc, Grimnoire
11 Pink Horrors
3 Nurglings
8 Screamers
Soulgrinder, DoS, BT
Kytan
Sorcerer, ML3, Bike
10 Cultists
5 Spawn, MoN
1849

Fast threats, Resilience, Buffs and some dice for summoning. Could be good. I'll test it later this week I think. I'll post results here briefly.

Cilithan

I started my Chaos Knight conversion before any of these leaked out a few months ago, but I'm glad I don't have to run it as a desperate ally now!


Khorne Paladin looks pretty nice to me (which is good, I dont have to rearm my knight). The foeripper and rerolling stomps makes him extremely nasty in combat.

I also much prefer the multiple high strength shots over a single hit or miss template


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I quite like that conversion...nice job

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DaPino wrote:
As I predicted when they first hinted Chaos knights, they dropped the ball HUGE on the Tzeentch knight.

Re-roll to hits of 1 for 65 pts? whooptie-fuckin-doo. I don't even mention the soul blaze because it REALLY isn't worth mentioning.

The Reroll to hit of 1s applies to both close combat and shooting at lets you reroll the scatter die for its blast weapons. It also still gets the Daemon rule with it do has a 5++ as part of that 65 points.

- Re-rolling ones for heavy stubbers? Greaaaaaat. /s
- I have zero clues as to why anyone would consider re-rolling 1's the same as re-rolling the scatter die.
- I know it applies to CC as well as shooting, I just think it's not worth it's points since Alligning with Khorne is just flat out the better option to have if you want to go into CC.
- I know you get a 5+ invul save, but the thing is, I get those with ALL allignments, not just Tzeentch and again, the benefits from the other gods are just flat out better.

The rules for blasts simply say if you have the ability to reroll to hit then you can reroll the scatter die. Rerolling ones is an ability to reroll to hit. That simple.

That's a discussion for YMDC... Plesse don't pollute this thread.

nevermind

With regard to the Legacies of Ruin, I thought that only the models from the IA13 book could take them, but I could be wrong (I'll definitely have to read all that again more closely). But another vehicle hiding behind the Chaos Knight/Kytan could certainly take the Khorne +1++ Legacy, I was thinking a Spartan loaded w Kharn and 20 Bloodletters, starting and moving up the border of a Void Shield Generator for Turn 1 protection.

And though I'm sick of psychic powers being needed for everything, Belakor flying around Shrouding the Spartan and whatever else plus Invisibling the big guy would just be ridonkulous! I did that with my dozer Lord of Skulls and worked out well, until it got mind-shackled (old Necrons).

But I do like the dozer LOS for the extra HP, extra attacks with Cleaver it gets usually, and the Daemongore cannon. That thing erases armies (the instant death really shines). Yeah, too many points, but oh so fun to use!

About all those discussions about Legacies of Ruin, one needs to remember that the Chaos Knight is a Super Heavy Walker, thus limiting its ability to take Legacies to something like 3 or 4, mostly giving him Hatred (something). Only a handful of Legacies are specifically mentionning being available on Walkers ans SH Walkers.

No Khorne +1 Invul (Vehicle only)
No +6' on Dirge (Vehicle only)
No Outflank (Vehicle only)

You seem to have somehow arrived at the conclusion that Walkers aren't vehicles.

Walkers are vehicles, and can take all of those upgrades.

The only ones they wouldn't be able to take are the ones that are explicitly for Tanks, but there's only a couple of those.

I promissed a quick report of my first battle using the Kytan. A friend and I played mission 5 from the ITC format using same rules https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/ .

His list was - by approximation:

Pask Punisher, meltasponsons, lascannon
Eradicator, meltasponsons, lascannon
Priest
5 Bulgryn, shields
Librarius Conclave with Tigurius, 2x Librarian ML2 (with Bulgryn and Priest)
10 Veterans, Lascannon, Meltaguns
Chimera
10 Veterans, Meltaguns, Grenadiers
Taurox
Wyvern
Wyvern
Imperial Knight

I used

Fateweaver
HoT, ML3, Disc, Grimnoire
11 Pink Horrors
3 Nurglings
8 Screamers
Soulgrinder, DoS, BT
Kytan
Sorcerer, ML3, Bike
10 Cultists
5 Spawn, MoN

Deployment
Vanguard Strike. I press against the edge of my deployment zone. My friend hangs back a bit more with both Wyverns on the table edge. Night Fight rules are in effect.

Turn 1
I got to start. Grimnoire failes twice (with Fateweavers reroll). I move up with everything except the Pink Horrors and Cultists who camp on objectives.
In the Psychic phase I get off Cursed Earth and a Summoning of 10 Daemonettes who mishap and get placed in ongoing reserves. Invisibility gets denied.
In the shooting phase the Warp storm table kills a Wyvern. Everything runs max distance forward, except for the Screamers who hang back a bit because they're missing relevant buffs.

My friend responds by moving back into his own deployment zone with his entire army. He is now packed into a corner of the board. In the Psychic phase he summons a squad of Fleshhounds who run forward to act as a screen for my assault. His shooting is pretty much uneventful because of Night Fighting and intervening ruins: most of my units have a 3+ coversave. He kills one Screamer and puts a wound/hp on the Soulgrinder.

We both get one Maelstrom objective this turn.

Turn 2
My Daemonettes arrive. I move up with everything except the Pink Horrors and Cultists who remain on the objectives. The Fleshhound screen helps my friend significantly as I cannot move as far as I would've wanted, which hampers assault options. Grimnoire goes off on the Screamers. In the Psychic phase I summon a Herald of Tzeentch with ML2. I fail to cast Invisibility. Fatewever casts Bolt of Change and pens the Chimera. I cast Forewarning on the Kytan. I put six dice into Cursed Earth at that point. I harness three warpcharges... and he rolls three sixes with his eight dispel dice left. Bah!
Warp Storm puts some wounds on his Bulgrynstar. In assault my Screamers fail the charge on Pasks unit. My Spawn and Daemonettes assault the Fleshhounds and manage to kill two and a half of them.

In his turn 2 my friend moves up with the Knight and the Bulgryn hoping to get the most out of this turn. I dispel an attempt at banishment on the Kytan. He fails to summon a unit, but succeeds in casting Invisibility on the Bulgrynstar. His shooting again is relatively uneffective. He takes a hullpoint from the Kytan using his Pask unit and some other shooting but my saves are good. The Screamers are unscathed as well. In assault his Bulgryn kill two Spawn and about five Daemonettes. I kill a Bulgryn and a Fleshhound. In the most exciting combat of the game disaster strikes! His Hammer of Wrath hit causes a hullpoint lost to my Kytan who is now on four hullpoints. My Kytan gets to strike first. He hits on 3's. However he rolls 1,1,2,4. Bah! The Knight loses two hullpoints. In return he hits with three of his four attacks and I fail two saves. He then rolls high enough on 2xD3 to kill the Kytan. Blegh! :-)

He gets one Maelstrom point this turn, I get two. (Tally: Imperials 2 vs. Chaos 3)

Turn 3
Due to time this was to be the last turn. I use Grimnoire on the Soulgrinder who needs to take on the Knight. In my psychic phase I summon Plaguedrones and kill a unit of Veterans with Flickering Fire. The Sorcerer casts Force and Forewarning on his unit of Spawn. The Warp Storm does nothing of note. In assault my Soulgrinder fails to reach the Knight. The Screamers kill Pask and put a HP on the Eradicator. My Spawn kill a Fleshhound and a Bulgryn. He kills the Daemonettes and a Spawn in return. We remain locked.

In his last turn his Shooting kills half of the Screamers including the HoT. The Knight assaults the Soulgrinder who whiffs, but luckily so doest the Knight so that combat remains uneventfull. The Bulgrynstar finaly finishes of the Spawn-unit.

We both get one Maelstrom point this turn. Imperials 3 vs Chaos 4.

Conclusion
At the end I have secured two Big Gun objectives and have killed a HS choice of his for 7 points. He has one objective for 3 points. I get primary.
In Secondary I win on Maelstrom objectives.
Also, I have Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord, he has King of the Hill.
All in all a Chaos victory.

A good and close game. The force of fast Chaos lists like mine is that they take the field and make it difficult for the opponent to retake it. Most of the games I win, are won by boardcontrol. Were this game to go on, anything would have been possible. He didn't have a real way of stopping me from killing his backfield, but I would have to throw a lot of summoned units into his Knight and Bulgrynstar to keep them busy long enough to stop him from taking my home objectives.

The Kytan? He will feature in my future lists. I will continue to play this list for a while. Dice can always come up like this - which makes for fun games, but I'm confident eight out of ten times a combat of Knight vs. Kytan would end in favour of the Kytan, which is why I need him in the list for the time being. Also, the Kytan is a good threat to have in a list which relies on boardcontrol and forward pressure.

My friend is leaning towards finetuning his list by removing the Chimera and the Taurox and taking an extra Eradicator with all the trimmings in Pasks unit and an Armored Sentinel with a Plasmacannon. The Veterans will be used as backfield campers with Lascannons.

Cheers, Cilithan

 Dysorange wrote:
About all those discussions about Legacies of Ruin, one needs to remember that the Chaos Knight is a Super Heavy Walker, thus limiting its ability to take Legacies to something like 3 or 4, mostly giving him Hatred (something). Only a handful of Legacies are specifically mentionning being available on Walkers ans SH Walkers.

No Khorne +1 Invul (Vehicle only)
No +6' on Dirge (Vehicle only)
No Outflank (Vehicle only)

Yeah I think in those instances, only walkers are able to take those legacies, but in general, if it states that a super heavy vehicle can take the legacy, then a super heavy walker can.
From the Super-Heavy Walker Section in the BRB:

"Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transports."


@Cilithan

Great Batrep! shame the Kytan got slapped by the knight. Next time, make sure he gets that sweet charge for the +2 attacks and then he will surely slap the knight silly. Also, throw prescience on him for extra security!

That list looks nasty. You've got 4 fast moving, hard hitting units that have the ability to summon more. Plus fateweaver and the grimoire mean that you're re-rolling that grimoire for the 3++ on the Kytan (which you should totally do more often).

I'd like to see more batreps with the Kytan and chaos knights to see where they stand from a competitive standpoint. I would like to use the knights, but it's a shame the next tournament I'm headed to (NOVA) will not be allowing super-heavies
Keep the batreps coming!