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2015/07/09 15:00:03
Subject: Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
Is there any reason not to take a dirge caster on your knight?
Your knight will be charging things, yes they are immune to most shooting but they are not emmune to all of it. Seems like a stupidly easy 5 points to spend. Autotake.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2015/07/09 15:03:24
Subject: Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
So does this make chaos a lot more competitive? Having their own knights , I think this would move them up the ladder.
Wyzilla wrote: Saying the Eldar won the War in Heaven is like saying a child won a fight with a murderer simply because after breaking into his house, shooting his mother and father through the head, the thug took off in a car instead of finishing off the kid.
2015/07/09 15:54:14
Subject: Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
Exergy wrote: Is there any reason not to take a dirge caster on your knight?
Your knight will be charging things, yes they are immune to most shooting but they are not emmune to all of it. Seems like a stupidly easy 5 points to spend. Autotake.
Yeah I am surprised this hasn't been discussed more. Especially in light of increasing DA popularity and a new Tau dex on the horizon. Knight may not care as much but Spawn, khorne dogs and the like love getting to charge without overwatch. And having it on a model you want to get in close to the enemy it is much more likely to do work, then say a rhino or landraider dirge would.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2015/07/09 16:15:12
Subject: Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
It makes for an ideal compaion to other fast moving melee units. As a super heavy it walks 12 inch right? I'd wager that would make for a pretty good distraction over some "paltry" bikers. who then get to benefit from the dirge caster too. The 12 inch dirge caster would make it especially nasty vs tau gunlines I'd think.
Might make footslogging csm more viable. Unlike our other vehicles these are tough as nails and pose a big threat and they're pretty fast too. Using them as "beacons" for legacies, you could have large khorne berzerker units with feel no pain for example. instead of paying for the land raider.
2015/07/10 04:07:37
Subject: Re:Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
You won't see too much of a focus on it competitively until the rules are officially published in a book; virtually nobody allows experimental rules in tournaments.
If it comes out (unchanged from what we've seen) it'll be a boost, but not an enormous one. It's a very expensive piece for an army that is already built around numerous expensive pieces--which may mean forfeiting one of the others.
Things like Be'lakor and Fateweaver are cornerstones you build a list on, a single Knight isn't. He requires support. That means you won't see people dropping Be'lakor or Fateweaver to try to fit in a Knight, because dropping those guys will frequently break a list completely.
It'll be easier for things like KDK Flesh Hound lists to fit him in, but those lists haven't exactly shown themselves to be high-tier competitive yet in the first place. Maybe it'll help them more than most. For an average competitive Daemon list, it'll be about seeing if you can trim already-slim support elements down even further to allow for yet another expensive model, and whether or not the tradeoff is actually worth it.
2015/07/10 05:20:35
Subject: Re:Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
DJ3 wrote: You won't see too much of a focus on it competitively until the rules are officially published in a book; virtually nobody allows experimental rules in tournaments.
If it comes out (unchanged from what we've seen) it'll be a boost, but not an enormous one. It's a very expensive piece for an army that is already built around numerous expensive pieces--which may mean forfeiting one of the others.
Things like Be'lakor and Fateweaver are cornerstones you build a list on, a single Knight isn't. He requires support. That means you won't see people dropping Be'lakor or Fateweaver to try to fit in a Knight, because dropping those guys will frequently break a list completely.
It'll be easier for things like KDK Flesh Hound lists to fit him in, but those lists haven't exactly shown themselves to be high-tier competitive yet in the first place. Maybe it'll help them more than most. For an average competitive Daemon list, it'll be about seeing if you can trim already-slim support elements down even further to allow for yet another expensive model, and whether or not the tradeoff is actually worth it.
I think this is true for most builds, however 1 build in particular will greatly be improved. As you mentioned, many Deamon lists have Belakor, Fateweaver, or both and many of those lists have 2-3 Soulginders. Lists that use 2 Phelgm-Grinders will easily trade them for 1 Chaos Paladin. Same AV, same # of str8 large blasts, but the Knight has a better save (Ion shield), moves 12" and has a D-sword.
If only the Chaos Knights could take the Imperial Knights formations. Still, this brings some much needed power to Chaos, but I don't think it will be enough.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
2015/07/19 09:46:57
Subject: Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
Dark Eldar Allied Detachment Lhamean 5 Warriors Venom, 2 Cannons Raider (Fire Dragons go here)
Aspect formation (don't know what its called - it gives BS5 to these units and more) 8 WarpSpiders, Exarch 8 Swooping Hawks, Exarch 8 Swooping Hawks, Exarch
By no means a push-over list.
The game was a carnage. At the end of turn 6 he had 5 Fire Dragons on an objective. I had an unharmed Kytan in the centre of the field and 1 summoned Plague Drone on an objective.
He won the game mostly on account of having scored more maelstrom objectives. The game was his to lose in the early stages of the match, up to turn 4. The last turns were mine, but I just barely missed the chance of pushing him of the last objective and gaining up on his lead in victorypoints. Overall the dice were equally favorable. His to hits and to wounds were on fire, but my resilience and damageoutput weren't too scabby either.
The Kytan was the undisputed MVP. He killed the Wraithknight, Venom, 5 man Windriders with Farseer, Lhamean, Raider, 5 man Windriders with Farseer and 3 man Windriders. All without taking any damage. Key in this was the fact that in turns 1 and 2 he had Invisibility cast on him. The Warp Storm table was also very effective this game. It was good for a turn of tablewide +1 Inv Save and it killed a Hornet, finished a unit of 2 Swooping Hawks and a unit of 3 Windrider jetbikes.
Cheers, Cilithan
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 15:18:19
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
Dark Eldar Allied Detachment
Lhamean
5 Warriors
Venom, 2 Cannons
Raider (Fire Dragons go here)
Aspect formation (don't know what its called - it gives BS5 to these units and more)
8 WarpSpiders, Exarch
8 Swooping Hawks, Exarch
8 Swooping Hawks, Exarch
By no means a push-over list.
The game was a carnage. At the end of turn 6 he had 5 Fire Dragons on an objective. I had an unharmed Kytan in the centre of the field and 1 summoned Plague Drone on an objective.
He won the game mostly on account of having scored more maelstrom objectives. The game was his to lose in the early stages of the match, up to turn 4. The last turns were mine, but I just barely missed the chance of pushing him of the last objective and gaining up on his lead in victorypoints. Overall the dice were equally favorable. His to hits and to wounds were on fire, but my resilience and damageoutput weren't too scabby either.
The Kytan was the undisputed MVP. He killed the Wraithknight, Venom, 5 man Windriders with Farseer, Lhamean, Raider, 5 man Windriders with Farseer and 3 man Windriders. All without taking any damage. Key in this was the fact that in turns 1 and 2 he had Invisibility cast on him. The Warp Storm table was also very effective this game. It was good for a turn of tablewide +1 Inv Save and it killed a Hornet, finished a unit of 2 Swooping Hawks and a unit of 3 Windrider jetbikes.
Cheers, Cilithan
Damn! That's crazy. Glad to see eldar get a whupping. But he took down a wraithknight?? How'd that go down?
2015/07/20 07:12:37
Subject: Chaos Knights: Tactica, First Impressions, etc...
Damn! That's crazy. Glad to see eldar get a whupping. But he took down a wraithknight?? How'd that go down?
My friend had first turn, but Night Fighting was in effect and the Kytan was in Ruins-terrain for a 3+ save. My turn 1 and 2 I cast Invisibility on the Kytan. My friend hardly did any attempts at shooting it. The Wraithknight shot at the Soulgrinder first turn. The second turn my friend shot and charged the Screamers with the Wraithknight. In my turn 2 the Kytan charged into that combat. Because he was Invisible my friend didn't attempt to strike the Kytan, but tried to take some Screamers down with him. I think that that was a wise choice. He rolled poorly on his to hit however and failed to hit even once.
The Kytans Hammer of Wrath wounded and the Wraithknight failed it's save and FNP. Then the Kytan had 6 attacks, hitting 4 and rolling 2, 3, 5 and 6 for the results on the Destroyer table. The Wraithknight does not get saves nor FNP against these wounds so it was instantly slain. The 6-result was devastating of course, but even without it the Kytan would've done the necessary damage.
I'd say a Kytan would kill a Wraith- or Imperial Knight 8 out of 10 times in combat. The Kytan has S: Destroyer vs. the Wraithknights S:10 and strikes on I:5 and WS:5. The Kytan has an invulnerable save as well; in my two games up till now it mostly has a 4++ because of Cursed Earth. An Imperial Knight is more dangerous than the Wraithknight because it has S: Destroyer, so if it lives to strike, there is a good chance the Kytan will die. A 6-result is always lethal. The Wraithknight is not so dangerous to the Kytan in my opinion. It hits on 4+, fails to harm 33% of the time and the Kytan will always get to make it's save.
Ranged the Wraithknight is more dangerous, but ITC rules have nerfed ranged S: Destroyer, so the chance of the Kytan being slain instantly before arriving to do damage in combat is not that great.
Also, in my list I have access to 12 mastery levels. Fateweaver has 1 roll on Telepahty and the Chaos Sorcerer has 3. There is a decent chance at getting Invisibility or Shrouding. I can also try for Forwarning with Fateweaver or the Herald, which combined with Cursed Earth could give a 3++. Cursed Earth is almost always a given and I have the Grimnoire. The Kytan has a good chance of 1 or more buffs to it's resilience.
Cilithan
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/20 15:25:04
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
DJ3 wrote: If they get published in a book as-is (they're currently marked experimental so no events would allow them), those Chaos Knights will change the competitive game for Daemon players. The special Khorne one is too expensive and doesn't do enough, but the normal ones are going to be insane.
A bunch of us were already finding ways to shoehorn in Insensate Rage Bloodthirsters because we needed some kind of access to D so badly, to at least attempt to counter other people's deathstars and superheavies.
A Chaos Knight of Khorne will be better than an Insensate Rage BT in pretty much every conceivable way--finding the 150 extra points to fit it will be a given. Being included in a Daemon army (and containing the Daemon special rule) opens up a metric ton of opportunities that normal Knights don't have. First and foremost being the Grimoire leading to 2+ Ion Shields (and 3+ on all other facings, including in combat, and 2+ if a Cursed Earth is nearby) and guaranteed access to Invisibility via Be'lakor.
So you're talking about a ~425 point Knight with invul saves on all sides at all times, re-rollable Stomps, +D3 charge attacks, and the capability to power up to essentially insane defensive abilities whenever necessary.
And I guess also a Dirge Caster because why not?
So I'm curious how these rules are not acceptable in tournament play? Using Nova 2015 as an example they clearly state all FW rules are acceptable. There is no disclaimer saying experimental FW is not admissible. Are we to assume FW means any FW, seeing as the latest books and sheets have got rid of the approved designations all together? Just curious because I'm trying to see how I can fit a Knight into my GT list after reading the Nova rules for 2015.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
Daemons: 5000+ points
Deathwatch/Knights: 5000 points
