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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






Is it a 5+ to wound demons with grav weapons, or is it 6 because they only have an "invulnerable" save of 5+?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




What is a daemons armour save?

That is the value you wound on.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





To further flesh out the cryptic answer necessary to not be handing out stats and rules, an invuln is not an armor save.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






So by that logic daemons are immune to grav? So bloodletters are a direct counter to skyhammer?

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So by that logic daemons are immune to grav? So bloodletters are a direct counter to skyhammer?

Please reread, carefully, the grav rules. Oh, and bloodletters have an armour save, just not one you are likely to ever use...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Daemons without a save (-) are wounded on 6's.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






Thanks for giving an answer, Fragile. For the record, I don't use marines or bloodletters, I just hate seeing people not answer simple questions for those who may not understand a rule.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





so yes deamons are a pretty major counter to grav.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Thanks for giving an answer, Fragile. For the record, I don't use marines or bloodletters, I just hate seeing people not answer simple questions for those who may not understand a rule.

If it is a simple question, than it is answered in the rules which you should have.

Some people do not appreciate rules-fishing when the answers are obvious and well written in the books. Some forums also have rules against this as well.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Thanks for giving an answer, Fragile. For the record, I don't use marines or bloodletters, I just hate seeing people not answer simple questions for those who may not understand a rule.

The grav rule could not be much more clear or explicit about how you determine the value of the to wound roll.

The forum has explicitly rules about being a replacement for the rule book. Please read them.
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

nosferatu1001 wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Thanks for giving an answer, Fragile. For the record, I don't use marines or bloodletters, I just hate seeing people not answer simple questions for those who may not understand a rule.

The grav rule could not be much more clear or explicit about how you determine the value of the to wound roll.

The forum has explicitly rules about being a replacement for the rule book. Please read them.


It also has rules telling us to be polite. Even when the rule seems perfectly spelled out, it can still be quite counter-intuitive. Like, say, a weapon often touted as being the best choice being functionally useless against virtually an entire army. It's quite reasonable for someone to take to the forums to get some clarification. What is unreasonable is to answer their question with other questions and treat them like criminals for trying to get some rules confirmation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 20:23:54


Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
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Dakka Veteran




No body runs Bloodletters but man if they did it would be so fun to watch a skyhammer try to play against it...just all the Lolz.
   
Made in no
Crazed Cultist of Khorne






My current army list has 4 units of 13 bloodletters. Just saying......
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Say hi to bolters!
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Jimsolo wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Thanks for giving an answer, Fragile. For the record, I don't use marines or bloodletters, I just hate seeing people not answer simple questions for those who may not understand a rule.

The grav rule could not be much more clear or explicit about how you determine the value of the to wound roll.

The forum has explicitly rules about being a replacement for the rule book. Please read them.


It also has rules telling us to be polite. Even when the rule seems perfectly spelled out, it can still be quite counter-intuitive. Like, say, a weapon often touted as being the best choice being functionally useless against virtually an entire army. It's quite reasonable for someone to take to the forums to get some clarification. What is unreasonable is to answer their question with other questions and treat them like criminals for trying to get some rules confirmation.

Is it unreasonable to ask them to find out the armour value, and then provide them the full information that completely answers their question?

I don't believe so. If you do, the. Perhaps a mod alert would make more sense next time.
   
Made in au
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





the down underworld

Hypothetically, there is a happy medium between just handing out rules, and coming across as condescending, but my experience on ymdc seems to suggest otherwise.

While there are users that are flat out rude, telling someone to reread the rules and/or guiding themnthrough the process does not make nos one of them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 00:02:04


"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





Lost in the Warp

BrianDavion wrote:so yes deamons are a pretty major counter to grav.


As are Orks.

Epartalis wrote:No body runs Bloodletters but man if they did it would be so fun to watch a skyhammer try to play against it...just all the Lolz.


Uhh.. Khorne Daemonkin.

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Fresh-Faced New User






It also has rules telling us to be polite. Even when the rule seems perfectly spelled out, it can still be quite counter-intuitive. Like, say, a weapon often touted as being the best choice being functionally useless against virtually an entire army. It's quite reasonable for someone to take to the forums to get some clarification. What is unreasonable is to answer their question with other questions and treat them like criminals for trying to get some rules confirmation.




I agree. I have been playing 40K for 18 years or so, and I am definitely a casual player. I actually don't like asking questions on Dakka, because of certain responses that I get for a basic clarification of rules.

I have the rule book. I know how to read. But, some people interpret things differently.

If someone is just going to respond with "the rules are clear, read them" please just don't respond next time. Thanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 15:59:59


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






The difference in this case was the response that against a save - it wouldn't do anything; that situation is clearly spelled out in the grav rule.

I can understand many questions that are in the rules but somewhat vague, have to do with the specific wording involved, or require cross-referencing several rules; but when the exact item being questioned is explicitly addressed in the rule itself: that is when you are going to get a response of read the rule again.

It really comes down to more effort has to be put into restating the rule than there is in telling someone that the exact situation is already covered in the rule and they should read it again(which just gets shorthanded into: read the rule again).

There is also a prevailing attitude that the questioning party just doesn't want to read the rule for themselves in these cases, or that they are fishing for rules they don't want to buy.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Sautek Supreme wrote:

It also has rules telling us to be polite. Even when the rule seems perfectly spelled out, it can still be quite counter-intuitive. Like, say, a weapon often touted as being the best choice being functionally useless against virtually an entire army. It's quite reasonable for someone to take to the forums to get some clarification. What is unreasonable is to answer their question with other questions and treat them like criminals for trying to get some rules confirmation.




I agree. I have been playing 40K for 18 years or so, and I am definitely a casual player. I actually don't like asking questions on Dakka, because of certain responses that I get for a basic clarification of rules.

I have the rule book. I know how to read. But, some people interpret things differently.

If someone is just going to respond with "the rules are clear, read them" please just don't respond next time. Thanks.

That wasn't the response.

In the second post you were asked to answer a simple question, and that gives you the answer to your question. Then someone asked a question that the rules explicitly cover, and gave no hint that they had even read the rule in question.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





Lost in the Warp

Aaand yet another YMDC post starts to get de-railed by niceties of politeness and political correctness on whether to reply with the answer or tell the OP to read the rule again...

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Flashy Flashgitz





Their clan disadvantage is to have Repugnant x3, but it's possible to gain more freebie points he probably took callous, condescending x2, and tactless x2. But it would mean he's about as socially awkward as...ohhhhhhhhh.

OP, unless they changed the rule, you always wound on a 6 with grav. And good luck!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 19:27:38


Warboss Troil
"Less chat, more splat!" 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






In the second post you were asked to answer a simple question, and that gives you the answer to your question. Then someone asked a question that the rules explicitly cover, and gave no hint that they had even read the rule in question.



In the second response your question directed me to a codex I do not own. I listed the relevant armor saves in my original post. I was just looking for a clarification on grav weapons specifically. So the response came across as somewhat rude.

Now, I don't know you, and you don't know me. And the internet is notorious for inflicting butt-hurt anyways. All I would ask is that you use your experience of posting over 28,000 times to ease up on the curt responses. Thanks!

And thanks to those who answered with clarity, it is appreciated.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/07 19:42:01


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I can't help you with a codex you don't own, and a rules forum isn't a replacement for one, either

Secondly, the grab rule states it applies to armour saves. As armour saves are not invulnerable saves, the invulnerable save cannot be relevant. Again, I thought this is quite clear in the grav weapon rules.

I was trying to be concise, and partly Socratic Showing you how to find the answer, not just giving it to you. If that was rude, I apologise.
   
Made in us
Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne




 eldrad2000 wrote:
My current army list has 4 units of 13 bloodletters. Just saying......


And mine currently has 10 units of 8. Not too worried about bolters I actually want you to kill them.
   
 
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