Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The idea is to make a Warhost kind of formation for Dark Eldar, specifically Wych Cults. Wych Cults are basically impossible to play right now due to Wyches themselves....kinda really sucking. I know some of the special rules are quite strong, however i don't think any are to powerful in comparison to some of the Special Rules of other Formations. Take a look and throw me some feedback? I want to know if these rules would be acceptable to you as a Formation. Take into account the people who i play with are mainly post-Necron armies, so many of my opponents have their own version of this anyhow.

The Dark Olympiad.

A Dark Olympiad will always include the core formation, with optional additional formations may be taking as auxiliary formations. The auxiliary formations may only be taken as a part of the Dark Olympiad.

Dark Olympiad: Wych Cults live and die in the Dark City based on the grandeur and success of their Dark Olympiads, Cult-Wide events which pit the best of the best of many Cults against each other in contests of bladework, acrobatics and lightning reflexes. If a Cult preforms well in the Olympiad, wealthy Archon's will shower gifts and patronage upon them just to be associated with such a Cult. However, not all of the Olympiad occurs within the manifold bladed arenas of Commaragh. Indeed, what is considered the greatest contest of skill is when the Cults pour out of the Webway into realspace, baying for blood and glory, were the Wyches that cause the greatest misery and best the mightiest opponents are remembered in halls of the Bloodied Sands for eons.

Special Rules: All formations taken as part of the Dark Olympiad have the following special rules in addition to any granted by their individual formations.



Core Formation: The Bloodied Sands



Command Formation: Legends of the Arena



Auxiliary formations: Arena in the Sky



Wealthy Patronage


Hounds of the Hunt



Veterans of the Arena


Spoils of Victory

Sexy! To clarify, would a unit that kills 3 enemy units in a single assault phase gain 3 medals? What if you have 2 units engaged in a fight against 1 or more enemy units? Would you split the medals up, or does everyone get a medal for participating?

I really like what you are doing here but not sure if execution is there just yet. I do like the "houses" rule where each unit gets their own style of combat. The whole medal thing sounds a little strange to me.
I'll have to sit down more with this later as I have some wyches, reavers and hellions sulking on the sidelines.

Basically Medals = Last Codex's Pain Tokens by another name. If you kill a unit, you advance on the table of special rules. I'll have a search for my Old DE codex and see the wording on pain tokens then copy it onto Medals to clear up issues such as Multi-Assaults.

I really like the idea of a fully supported, semi-competitive Wych cult. It's different from most other armies out there and it just all fits to a certain theme so well. I'm a little stuck on how to include Blood Brides, so i just threw them into the core formation but i also want one based around the Blood Brides themselves, but i am at a loss for how to make them unique. Maybe rending? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Blood Brides should be a 0-1 inclusion, like space marine command squads.

I think a base should be succubus, 3 wych sqds, 1 reaver sqd.

auxiliries incl hellions, beast masters, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thinking more on it, I don't think that killing units should gain them quicker access to power from pain, but maybe an additional roll on the combat drugs chart. If you roll something you already have, you choose a different one. easier to track for each unit (with tokens) than having to think about the turn, which unit got a jump early etc.

 bullyboy wrote:
Blood Brides should be a 0-1 inclusion, like space marine command squads.

I think a base should be succubus, 3 wych sqds, 1 reaver sqd.

auxiliries incl hellions, beast masters, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thinking more on it, I don't think that killing units should gain them quicker access to power from pain, but maybe an additional roll on the combat drugs chart. If you roll something you already have, you choose a different one. easier to track for each unit (with tokens) than having to think about the turn, which unit got a jump early etc.

I disagree. Simply figuring up turn number + number of tokens is much easier for me than juggling 6 different kinds of tokens for drugs. It also makes less sense. Are they rewarding themselves with a hit of a new drug for doing a good job? Medals-as-pain tokens are them savoring the agony up close and getting boosted effects as a result.

Regarding blood brides, I've toyed around with the idea of having different "fighting styles" for wych units to choose from. Things like rerolling invul saves, rending, etc.

I wasn't reflecting on the drugs themselves, just the attributes. As the glory of the kill escalates they become more deadly...almost whipping themselves into a frenzy, not actually taking more drugs. I just see the combat drugs as being more wych specific while the power from pain seems to fit the haemonculi etc.
I see the strikeforce as one big gladitorial conclave, with each "house" trying to out perform the other. It's not about inflicting pain, but winning combats in the most spectacular fashion.
Anyway, it's neither here or there but that's probably the mechanic I would manipulate.

The drugs are wych-specific, but power from pain is universal. Haemonculi are just a bit better at supplying/flavoring agony. Wych drugs are handy, but the PFP benefits actually synergize very well with what wyches want to do. The normal table just happens to be useless for wyches because wyches consider turn 3 a "late game" assault. They need that FNP and Furious Charge pronto, not a turn or two after they've already been shot dead. Medals help offset that by letting you bully a unit early, then become a half-decent assault unit later on.

Edit: Also, making medals grant drugs makes the rich sponsors stuff a bit unnecessary/redundant.

The catch with Bloodbrides is that the only real advantage they have over Wytches, normally, is +1A and +1Ld, and that last part is of middling importance considering you can attach a Succubus, Archon or Lelith (or maybe Drazhar) and just work around it. Or heck, even an allied Autarch and work around Overwatch with a banshee mask while getting Ld10 as part of the deal. So, to make them good, you'd need to cash in on the main advantage they get: more attacks.

To me, that means any of: more reliable wounding (but you can get Wytch weapons with Shred or Preferred Enemy already), more potential AP, even more attacks, or more accurate attacks (but you can get Wytch weapons with Twin-Linked). Other options might include a way to not die - resistance to Overwatch, resistance to being swept. You do get Fearless from PFP, but usually too late to matter.

So, here's my suggestion:

Auxiliary Formation: Veterans of the Arena

I really like that, it builds off the core formation which is great because it means less rules to remember. The only change I'd make the Shardnet and Impaler a defensive upgrade similar to like it used to be.

I am happy with how it looks at the moment. Using the core formation, a unit of Wyches will have 2 Combat Drug Benefits, the entire squad will benefit with some kind of re-roll ala Wych Weapon and whenever they kill a unit they get a leg-up on the PfP table. That's not half bad for 13pts, Wyches would actually be useful!

Fluffwise I like the idea of giving the Shardnet and Impaler some kind of defensive benefit, but I think crunchwise an offensive benefit has fewer possible interactions. That might depend on what kind of defense benefit, though.

Old Necron Wraiths with their Whip Coils, for example, had the weird "Captain and Veterans" initiative paradox, which is why Initiative penalties - though fluffy - are tricky. An Initiative bonus - like Tyranid Lash Whips - is an ingenious solution, but for models that are I6 anyway it's of minimal use. It could be a weapon skill bonus, but that probably won't matter much. A save bonus, maybe, but depending on how much, the net and Impaler rapidly becomes either the awful option that nobody takes, or else the amazing one that everyone always uses, all the time.

To me, Rage here represents that the net ties the enemy up long enough that the wielder gets to poke them again. Maybe a straight-up +1A is better?

Captain-and-wraiths problem:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another set of thoughts regarding Wytches in general: their main problems to me are that they're incredibly squishy against shooting, which means they need to stay in cover or in a transport when they're not in melee. But that leads to the second problem: no assault grenades, on a unit that basically depends on striking first to be effective, and no Move Through Cover on a unit that lives and dies by cover and charge distances.

Things that would be very nice, somewhere in here - maybe as a command choice benefit: counting as having assault grenades, and gaining the Move Through Cover and possibly Crusader rules, or being able to consolidate back into their transports (like Harlequins get with one formation).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dah, donut seeds on my part - I didn't see your modification above. Yeah, that seems sensible and fluffy - I like the idea of guys getting gummed up in the net. My only objection is that model-by-model penalties of that type slow down rolling - I guess that makes for a klunkiness-versus-fluffiness tradeoff.

I like your suggested formation, jade_angel.

A couple of thoughts though:
* Wyches do, in fact, have plasma grenades which are assault grenades.
*Wyches really *should* get shot up if they aren't in a transport or cover, but giving blood brides Stealth is a fluffy way to help keep them alive.
*Hydra gauntlets aren't fuffed as being poisonous weapons are they? Mechanically, it's a good choice, but fluff-wise, they're basically an endless supply of warp-mutated crystal spikes.
*For the net & impaler, how about just boosting their invul saves to 3+ or let them reroll their 4+? Fluff-wise, they're using their reach and their nets to foul up the enemy's attacks while they get out of the way. I liked the old negative attacks thing, but it is kind of a pain to take the time and figure out. This way, you just know that models with nets have a better or rerollable save.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I like your suggested formation, jade_angel.

A couple of thoughts though:
* Wyches do, in fact, have plasma grenades which are assault grenades.
*Wyches really *should* get shot up if they aren't in a transport or cover, but giving blood brides Stealth is a fluffy way to help keep them alive.
*Hydra gauntlets aren't fuffed as being poisonous weapons are they? Mechanically, it's a good choice, but fluff-wise, they're basically an endless supply of warp-mutated crystal spikes.
*For the net & impaler, how about just boosting their invul saves to 3+ or let them reroll their 4+? Fluff-wise, they're using their reach and their nets to foul up the enemy's attacks while they get out of the way. I liked the old negative attacks thing, but it is kind of a pain to take the time and figure out. This way, you just know that models with nets have a better or rerollable save.

Oh, oops, I completely forgot that they had those. For some reason I was thinking that Kabalites did and Wytches didn't, which obviously makes no sense.

I agree they shouldn't be Space Marine-level resilient against shooting, but they shouldn't be completely helpless, either (the 6+ armor save is verging on useless, and at T3, their FNP is likely to be bypassed) - so yeah, that's what I was thinking with Stealth. At least with that they get a fighting chance to save against bolter fire - the fact that it could just as easily shrug off a lascannon is a comical side effect.

No, hydra gauntlets aren't fluffed as being poisonous, but the idea that those crystal spikes shatter, leaving little shards that do all kinds of nasty damage seems like the kind of thing that could be mechanically represented as Poisoned. Or Fleshbane, but I think that's probably too good, especially since it works on GCs - that'd kinda make the hydra gauntlet option a no-brainer.

Ah, I changed Shardnets to effect units they were engaged with instead of models. I know it's a little weird fluffwise, as a single Wych can gum up an entire 30 man Ork Horde, but it sidesteps the whole pile in and initiative step trickyness that comes from it effecting models in base contact.

I don't think -1 Ws and A is that hard to work out compared to re-rollable dodge saves. It also cements the Wyches role as a Tarpit of elite units, for example TH/SS terminators. Reducing them to 1 attack which you get your Dodge save against means they will be held up a long while. I also don't mind Hydra Gauntlets being 4+ poison, i to had the impression of the Gauntlet snapping off in the opponent.

I also added a formation based around Jet Fighters, as i remembered their fluff as being Reavers that were so successful in the Death Races they could afford to get the next step up in speed. Also Razorwings are the only reasonable ranged anti-tank i could include in this while still being fluffy, and I personally believe the Jet Fighters should of had Vector Dancer to begin with. The reason i had them come in turn 1 is because turn 1 damage is what this formation lacks (as in...it has none) and the pinning might help the Wyches survive the return fire.

I'd say it's done, would you say this is reasonable rules wise in comparison with Decurion and Warhost as well as being Fluffy for a Wych cult?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ah, I changed Shardnets to effect units they were engaged with instead of models. I know it's a little weird fluffwise, as a single Wych can gum up an entire 30 man Ork Horde, but it sidesteps the whole pile in and initiative step trickyness that comes from it effecting models in base contact.

I don't think -1 Ws and A is that hard to work out compared to re-rollable dodge saves. It also cements the Wyches role as a Tarpit of elite units, for example TH/SS terminators. Reducing them to 1 attack which you get your Dodge save against means they will be held up a long while. I also don't mind Hydra Gauntlets being 4+ poison, i to had the impression of the Gauntlet snapping off in the opponent.

I also added a formation based around Jet Fighters, as i remembered their fluff as being Reavers that were so successful in the Death Races they could afford to get the next step up in speed. Also Razorwings are the only reasonable ranged anti-tank i could include in this while still being fluffy, and I personally believe the Jet Fighters should of had Vector Dancer to begin with. The reason i had them come in turn 1 is because turn 1 damage is what this formation lacks (as in...it has none) and the pinning might help the Wyches survive the return fire.

I'd say it's done, would you say this is reasonable rules wise in comparison with Decurion and Warhost as well as being Fluffy for a Wych cult?

I'd argue that simply picking up failed 4+ dodge rolls and rolling them a second time is easier than pausing to calculate new to-hit modifiers and possibly new differences in initiative, but I don't think either way of handling the shardnets is too difficult to be practical. I also like that your way of doing it lets wyches take the teeth off of enemies while they're attacked by other units (be they other wyches, incubi, or whatever). Regarding hydra gauntlets, I don't dislike where you have them, but what would you think of a simple +1 to attacks (on top of the current +1 from having a pair of them)? This is just me, but I don't see hydra gauntlets making wyches much better at taking down MCs. If anything, sacrificing a poisonous pistol for those gauntlets should probably make them worse at it! (I kid.) Bonus attacks is simple yet reminiscent of their 5th edition incarnation and, in combination with the right drugs, can give them a ridiculous number of attacks. Which seems like it would be fun to roll.

"What are you? Ork boyz?"
"No. I'm fast and good at what I do."


I like the jetfighter formation. Vector dancer is much appreciated (they really should be able to compete with craftowrlds in terms of aerial agility), and "softening them up," is exactly what I'd want my flyers to do for the wyches. Strafing run, if I'm remembering the rule correctly, seems like it might be a bit too good as a permanent upgrade, but I'm not terribly familiar with how effective our flyers are. Maybe make it a turn 1 only thing? Or is that how you intended it already. I wasn't sure if the pinning *and* strafing run were turn 1 only, or just the pinning.

Overall, I give you an A+ for these rules, and I hope my group will let me try them out. The decurion formation probably has more raw power, but I also consider its benefits to be too good on an already powerful army. Your rules make a low-functioning type of army playable in an interesting, flavorful way. The craftworld war host isn't really all that potent unless you're using it to spam wraith knights or possibly combining it with some other nasty tricks. The main craftworldwar host benefits are mostly flavorful and useful but not broken. I'd say your rules are quite a bit more potent than the craftworld warhost rules, but it's probably fine considering wyches are a bit less potent than guardians, jetbikes, vaul support batteries, etc.

A proposal for the Arena in the Sky formation: Give Reavers in that formation a 4+ cover save if they move, exactly as Eldar Shining Spears get. A big issue with Reavers is that their 5+ armor means they pretty much have to Jink if they get shot at, which in turn means their shooting doesn't do much - doubly so because unlike Marine and Eldar bikes, their guns aren't twin-linked. I'd be inclined to give Hellions something extra too (because they're even more UP than Reavers are), but I don't know what offhand. Guns firing an extra shot, maybe?

jade_angel wrote:
A proposal for the Arena in the Sky formation: Give Reavers in that formation a 4+ cover save if they move, exactly as Eldar Shining Spears get. A big issue with Reavers is that their 5+ armor means they pretty much have to Jink if they get shot at, which in turn means their shooting doesn't do much - doubly so because unlike Marine and Eldar bikes, their guns aren't twin-linked. I'd be inclined to give Hellions something extra too (because they're even more UP than Reavers are), but I don't know what offhand. Guns firing an extra shot, maybe?

I'd probably be okay with that, but I don't think it's really necessary. Reavers really do have to jink to stay alive, but skilled rider means that they jink better than most and can benefit from regular cover without worrying about dangerous terrain tests. Turbo boosting also means that they can probably reach BLOS terrain if there's any on the board to hide behind. Loosing their shooting stinks, but you're not sinking a lot of points into those guns either. If their shooting helps, great. If not, you're probably building them around clusuter caltrops anyway. Remember that with these rules, it's pretty easy for you to wind up giving them +1 Toughness drugs to help with their survivability. So between potential Toughness 5, a 3+ jink when they need it, and easy access to 4+ cover from ruins, I'm not sure they really need a constant 4+ cover save just for the sake of their guns. Of course, I'm biased here. The main reason I feel iffy on giving them a shining spears save is that shining spears are struggling enough as it is, and giving their save away makes them less special and unique snonwflakes. How about the Spears share their cover save, and the reavers share their hit & run?

Giving the hellions something extra is tempting, but I do think they get a lot out of being able to jink. They can deepstrike in to bully an enemy backfielder, jink to survive return fire, shoot things up with some actually pretty decent poison shooting, and assault *just* well enough to hide in close combat before hit & running out to repeat the process. A pretty solid harassment unit, provided you don't put too many points into a given squad. Remember, they too will be benefiting from more wych drugs than normal, so they'll be some combination of tougher and/or more stabby.

That said, I'd love to see the old "pick 'em up & rip 'em up" rule they had make some sort of a return. It's a nice way to pull apart death stars. Maybe give the unit precision strikes (not shots) to represent them showing off by calling out targets of import? They aren't stabby enough to automatically wreck units with a few precision strikes, but it gives you a chance to possibly snipe special weapons out of squads or to put the squad leader's special weapon to work without having to challenge.

Wyldhunt wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
A proposal for the Arena in the Sky formation: Give Reavers in that formation a 4+ cover save if they move, exactly as Eldar Shining Spears get. A big issue with Reavers is that their 5+ armor means they pretty much have to Jink if they get shot at, which in turn means their shooting doesn't do much - doubly so because unlike Marine and Eldar bikes, their guns aren't twin-linked. I'd be inclined to give Hellions something extra too (because they're even more UP than Reavers are), but I don't know what offhand. Guns firing an extra shot, maybe?

<snippity>How about the Spears share their cover save, and the reavers share their hit & run?

Yeah, for sure - I'd be more than OK with that. Shining Spears shouldn't have lost Hit & Run to begin with, and they didn't even throw us a bone by making it available to Autarchs or Farseers. Give me cover-on-move Reavers and Hit & Run Shining Spears, and I'd be making lists with both just for the dash-and-whack funsies, driving people bananas with them.

Giving the hellions something extra is tempting, but I do think they get a lot out of being able to jink. They can deepstrike in to bully an enemy backfielder, jink to survive return fire, shoot things up with some actually pretty decent poison shooting, and assault *just* well enough to hide in close combat before hit & running out to repeat the process. A pretty solid harassment unit, provided you don't put too many points into a given squad. Remember, they too will be benefiting from more wych drugs than normal, so they'll be some combination of tougher and/or more stabby.

That said, I'd love to see the old "pick 'em up & rip 'em up" rule they had make some sort of a return. It's a nice way to pull apart death stars. Maybe give the unit precision strikes (not shots) to represent them showing off by calling out targets of import? They aren't stabby enough to automatically wreck units with a few precision strikes, but it gives you a chance to possibly snipe special weapons out of squads or to put the squad leader's special weapon to work without having to challenge.

I almost forgot about the Combat Drugs bonuses, since they so often roll one of the mostly-useless ones for me. (+1 Ld? Snore. +1I on an I6 model? Well, OK, that's nice if I run into Saint Celestine or a bunch of Lashwhip/Bonesword Warriors...) Yeah, if you got +1S and +1T, say, that would help an awful lot. T5 Reavers do suddenly get a lot harder to crack with bolters, and get their FNP against meltaguns, lascannons or krak missiles.

Precision Strikes for Hellions is nice and fluffy, yeah - a good way to soften up a unit before the Wyches or Bloodbrides charge in.