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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/655877.page

Thanks!

First of all hi all, I lurk Dakka from long time but finally feel like make an account to say my 2 cents about all it's happening - also sorry for my English as is not my primary language.

So, the title summarize pretty much my option already, but let me start by telling you a story...

I'm 34, married and with a pretty busy life - I didn't play WHFB from quite a lot ( 7- 8 years) - a few months ago I wanted to come back and I'm in a different country knowing no one play it... so I start research, during end times and when rumors about 9 edition and sky falling was starting all around...

The feeling I get was: GW is crap, WHFB is dead, they going to squat all the armies whatever

Ok, the hell, is the internet - I didn't give a rat bottom to all as I just wanted to buy some toy soldiers to paint while relaxing after work and some fun games

So the internet being a bad place, the next step - try to find a community near here. I found what is the only store in the 100km and do the most natural thing: contact on their facebook page if they play WHFB, if they play some, if there was a gaming community active.

If I had insulted their mothers I would had a better reaction.

The more diplomatic was the store owner ("oh yes, well we don't stock it as we play mostly 40 but definitely can order whatever you want if you can just wait 4 weeks for delivery"), the other was the usual "no we play 40k" "everything is going to be squatted, don't buy nothing now" "GW is not gonna support fantasy anymore" and people start circlejerking about how fantasy was crap and all

Ok whatever, well I don't care: I really want my toy soldiers. Browsing the GW website, and ordered a Island of Blood + some basic stuffs - a color bundle, green stuff etc just to start put me back in the hobby

Now - here things goes interesting. GW messed up the order and was never showing sent, I try contact the support but got nothing from a couple of days... hey so the internet was right! GW suck!

nope

something with the address was not getting into their system, it was in the end half my fault and half their, so they send me another order

with everything I ordered already

twice

two IOB, two of the bundles, two of everything

and they give me back the delivery fee (fastes delivery the more expensive one)

So despite all the gak I was reading on the internet, despite I was already looking bad at GW, they totally buy me with that.

I start painting my toy soldiers and buy some other stuffs (this second order a 200GBP worth of plastic), and make some games for fun with the wife, but still wanted to see to find someone else to share the hobby - so thinking was the internet to make people I decided to try go to the shop to see how people was there.

Driving there, I was happy like a kid, ready to dish out some money for toy soldiers and make friends that share my interest! when I see the shop entrance it was like christmass look there's a gaming community here! look at all those tables and those pack of toy soldiers around!

When I open the door however, it was like if you 8 and your parents told you that Santa does not exist.

on a Christmas eve.

right after telling you they are divorcing and that you've been adopted.

The shop owner never bother to take his eyes off the mmorpg he was playing on his laptop. A shop assistant comes, I said something in the line "hey hi I see the fb page, I just dropped by and wanted to see if you people into play with toy soldiers and what you have around".

He point me at the 6 WHFB boxes they had there (not a random number, they was really 6) and go back to chat with other guys in the store playing 40k, coming every 5 minutes to ask "did you find what you want?"

Not a single word about gaming, not a single word about the hobby, just for the fact I was looking for Fantasy I was looked down like a poor slowed...

The feeling of the other people was the worst - WAAC, people discussing RAW and complainign about that toy soldier was not enough near the other (for a matter of millimeters) and overall a whole bunch of TFG put together.

I buy a couple of pot of colors, drive home

and ordered another 150gbp of plastic from the GW site

note that as I'm a pretty remote country fastest delivery is the only option I trust - and I have to pay import taxes when they come... so the atmosphere there was so toxic that I RATHER PAY 20% ON TOP OF THE ALREADY HIGH GW PRICES AND DELIVERY FEES THAN STAY AROUND THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE

And just for clarification: I am not rich.

This kind of behaviors, this kind of toxic environment is not only bad for the hobby, it make GW lose money. If I followed the negativity on the internet, if I follow the negativity of people that play and should be fonded in the hobby, the "my plastic soldiers with guns are more SERIOUS BUSINESS than your plastic soldiers with spears" and all I would not get back in the hobby at all.

Before anyone say "what happened to you is a specific case, is not all like that" - I still remember my very fisrt game, 20 or so years ago: I bring my Orc army temed around black orcs all excited, got to this club, get a game with TFG that bring out an orc list and start doing all the power play stuffs (I remember something like an orc shaman at the edge of the table with the unit looking the other way so if run would not panic others or whatever) and rotflstomp me in 1 turn - I didn't play for months until some friends start play and i could play with them. And when we was going to the stores to play, the % of TFG and WAAC was always pretty high.

So, tl:dr: the community is bad. Is really bad, is toxic and not only not attract new people, they even actively bring people out.

The communing not only makes fantasy not grow: it makes it lost player.

This is why AOS. This is why the beard rules, the no army comp, the "do whatever you want"

People like me, that play to have some fun, will go around those. I will not play the beard rules, IDGAF. I will paint my toy soldiers and have some fun play friendly games with the wife and some closer friends I'm trying to bring into the hobby.

The people that can't understand why the beard rules are there
The people that think you allowed to win with a screaming bell combo at turn 1
The people that can't sit and agree with who you have to play for limit in the armies if they don't have a point system

If AOS manage to get this people away, then GW finally won as they understand what the problem with WHFB was.

What horrible experience :(
I kind of feel the same way;
Played 2nd edition 40k and 3rd edition fantasy before falling out of the hobby because of life.

Now I want to come back but see everything on the net about how horrible everything's gotten and it's hard to remind myself it's just the internet.

I've always felt that WHFB and 40k are the same game just 2 different time periods and it's really about where my mood is at the time, if I feel more like fantasy or more sci-fi.

*edit*
and I've always played to have fun. Although winning a game did feel pretty good, it wasn't the whole reason to play. All these broken rules people say about the way back editions, I never saw because we played for fun and not WAAC.

The community is bad because GW never shepherded it.
What do you think would happen when Dubs just shovels more gak at people with absolutely no outlet for suggestions/ discussion.

fyi RAW is one thing. a WAAC is an entirely different thing. you are free to say your community is your problem but its not the same for everyone else.

You can stop using the paint roller thanks.

What's up with all the "lurker" accounts that have suddenly popped out singing GW's high praises?

I'm usually not one to go for conspiracy theories, but if I were I would begin to wonder if GW didn't woke up to the more, shall we say, "unsavoury" internet marketing tactics...

Drozer wrote:


The people that can't understand why the beard rules are there
The people that think you allowed to win with a screaming bell combo at turn 1
The people that can't sit and agree with who you have to play for limit in the armies if they don't have a point system

If AOS manage to get this people away, then GW finally won as they understand what the problem with WHFB was.

Spot on.

Honestly, I usually try to ignore the internet keyboard warriors' hate, but lately, all of the rampant negativity here that accomplishes absolutely nothing constructive has really been wearing me down. So, while English may not be your first language, I think you summed up the underlying importance of the social contract nicely.

Age of Sigmar may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure is fun to actually play.

10 years ago I went into a small hobby shop and asked about scale of some models. Guy grabbed the box, turned it over, practically shoved it in my face and said "Are you blind or something" I left and never went back. I chalk this up to the person behind the player rather than the game making people toxic.

But I still don't agree that AoS is some kind of fun loving happy savior ready to wash away all the evil peoples who are meany pants. The rules are trash, mosh pit center of board til someone roles lucky. No skill, no lists, nothing that makes a game survive for a long time. AoS is hardly going to bring people together in the long run when there's nothing really to discuss about points/list building. As for who to blame for fantasy dying off slowly its definatly GW and how they treat the system compared to their overwhelming parenting of 40k, fantasy was like the runt and considering its actual pedigree was a misjustice to the system. It didn't need something like AoS to wipe away the negative, it needed some real love and attention.

An account that has been created today isn't quite a lurker account

Your post essentially says "I had a bad experience with my FLGS". That's about it...that has nothing to do with a specific game system. I made a very positive experience after a longer break at the hobby (another mid-30 here!). Right now, I am head of a gaming club with 30+ members that regularly pairs with 2 other clubs for tournaments I and my wife organize and provide prices for (Annual Grand Tournament with 1000€ in cash prizes (500€, 250€, 125€, 75€, 50€), smaller tournaments in between). We're currently phasing out WHFB as it's abandoned and transition over to KoW. Recently, we switched 40k back to 4th and are now reconsidering switching to 5th.

Long story short: a different experience led to a different outcome. As you can see, the game system itself doesn't play an important part in it. Your initial experience, however, does. While you were agitated, I was inspired and now dedicate, together with my wife, quite some time into the tabletop hobby.

Without GW support. Because GW can go...love themselves! They don't care for their customers, they release half-assed and lazy rulesets to maximize income. AoS is a prime example. By not including a balance mechanism, they skip most of the work a good developer puts into his product. Mantic Games holds PUBLIC beta tests and acts upon the feedback given. GW does not even playtest their rules. Mantic releases the vastly superior ruleset. Is that a surprise?

Drozer isnt coming back is he?..

PhantomViper wrote:
What's up with all the "lurker" accounts that have suddenly popped out singing GW's high praises?

I'm usually not one to go for conspiracy theories, but if I were I would begin to wonder if GW didn't woke up to the more, shall we say, "unsavoury" internet marketing tactics...

Oh dear, looks like you might need to rent my tinfoil hat now.


In any case, it is true that gaming communities, especially when competitive, seem to attract a loot of bad eggs. TFG, rules lawyers, WAAC etc., they are all common enough to be given special names.
You just need to find a bunch of people that are nice, and sometimes, this can be a challenge, especially when there is no much choice. But since those guys in your post don't seem to play WHFB anyways I'd say their attitude doesn't really matter.

I do feel though, that with its increasing focus on 'narrative play', GW is increasingly trying to push away competitive players in favour of more casual (and therefore maybe more friendly?) players. Don't know if it will help though. I tried playing D&D only once, and that is really a narrative game where you actually have to work together instead of compete, but I found that it was full of TFGs. etc. too, so the issue does not seem limited to competitive play.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I do feel though, that with its increasing focus on 'narrative play', GW is increasingly trying to push away competitive players in favour of more casual (and therefore maybe more friendly?) players. Don't know if it will help though. I tried playing D&D only once, and that is really a narrative game where you actually have to work together instead of compete, but I found that it was full of TFGs. etc. too, so the issue does not seem limited to competitive play.

Doesn't stop power builders and meta knights.

never will.

I think we can sum up a lot of it as poor marketing and poor community response from GW.

You flat out say at the end of your post that the people complaining are not out to have fun, which is not true.

I play infinity casually and for fun.
I play warmachine casually and for fun.
I play firestorm armada for fun and exceedingly casual.
Adding to that list, mordheim, malifaux drop zone commander and WH40k and fantasy.
GW has been the driving force for allot of the negativity with how they choose to handle themselves.
People around me are not even looking at age of sigmar right now, it's the lack of caring not the dislike is harming GW community here.

If you look at GW history and how they have handle this it's quite bleak at times.
Bretonians have been waiting for a long time, how many players did that cost them ? How many players get told your army should be getting a update it really needs soon. Only to wait years.
With there choice being play something other or be the one having to negotiate for others to change how they play for them.
Over the last 2 years we have lost multiple players to simple neglect off anything to be excited for.

If GW wants to change this all, it has to be the drive for change. Age of sigmar isn't anything amazing. It's a game that GW is trying to sell off poor choices to market.

I am positive that the game can be made good, and I do try and play there games when I can. But I don't think the beard rules are positive for the game, and without something to allow for discussion I ask why it's a better use of my limited game time than any other game ?

I know the biggest problem with the game is the community and not the game itself.
A very good example being the whole screaming bell fiasco.

We all know what GW implied with that rule (it was a joke as 13 is impossible to get on 2d6) yet there are people who are going to take every word as literal as possible and thus find all these "broken" rules.

The group I was in when we played always had fun because we used common sense when interpreting the rules and never found imbalance in our games.
Everyone had fun and all was good.

Not saying that everyone is like this, or that even the majority are like this. But there are enough that it is noticeable and it is really sad that the OP only has these types of people going to the only location near them.

I hope he can find more people like him to create his own group and have fun.

There jokes are bad. and not funny.

they are supposedly a games workshop. the least they could do is make an actual game.

fact of the mater is they put these dumb rules in as a joke and the the whole system is going to be taken as a joke. and is why many people are going to walk way. TFG or otherwise.

False equivalency. The occurrence of TFGs aren't related to the rules of the game or anything: Age of Sigmar isn't going to fix a damn thing.

As has been stated before, these "toxic" people exist in every community, EVERYWHERE. Go join a curling club, or a soccer team - there will be jerks there too, complete with rules lawyering and noob shaming. Somewhere out there, there's a competitive Monopoly league, and you can be sure as hell that there's somebody flipping out about using non-standard game pieces. Is it Hasbro's fault for making a rules-set that encourages that kind of behaviour? Of course not, you'll say: Monopoly was never supposed to be a competitive game!

And there, we return to the origin. GW didn't create TFG by making 40k the way it is, or any of their other games - they're also not going to get rid of TFG by making a more "casual" game in AoS.

FWIW, I agree that Age of Sigmar is a step in the right direction. There's a few steps back in there, IMHO, but when has a GW release ever been everything everybody wanted?

"Do whatever you want!" Isn't the basis for a good game. If it were I would have never sought out a game to play with my miniatures, I'd still be smashing them together saying "PEW PEW!"

Don't get me wrong, I know GW didn't make these people and I know these people exist in any/every other hobby/activity. I also agree that their jokes are dumb and should have been left out.

The point was just simply to show how far some people will go to complain. And unfortunately these complaints are diluting the legitimate complaints.

*edit*
I was actually told that the reason our group didn't find the game completely broken, unbalanced and unplayable (back in the editions we played) was because we "didn't push the rules far enough"

In other words, we didn't twist the meanings of the rules around so that they didn't make sense and therefore we wear rose colored glasses...

Call me TFG or not, couldn't care less, but I played WHFB to win the game. For me the challenge is the fun in the game. No I don't find the kid brand new to the hobby and bring my dual chimera, nurgle prince, nurgle chariots, and bsb on disc against him and mop the floor with him while savoring the sweet tears of defeat......(maybe in a tournament scene)

Either way plenty of us played the game because we liked bringing tough lists against other tough lists. Win or lose doesn't matter(still a fun game) but I didn't pull all my stuff out to lose. With WHFB the option for fun fluffy games were there and I had my fair share of them but it also let us who want to play competitively the ability to do so as well. Sure people had issues with the rules but it was far better then now. AOS doesn't allow the option for those of us who wish to play that kind of game anymore. GW has the ability to write a simple yet solid rule system(LOTR) that is scalable. Some of those people might have been dbags taking advantage of newer players or bringing tournament lists to friendly game sure but that's on that guy not the rest of us who choose to play eachother with that in mind.

 namiel wrote:
Call me TFG or not, couldn't care less, but I played WHFB to win the game. For me the challenge is the fun in the game. No I don't find the kid brand new to the hobby and bring my dual chimera, nurgle prince, nurgle chariots, and bsb on disc against him and mop the floor with him while savoring the sweet tears of defeat......(maybe in a tournament scene)

Either way plenty of us played the game because we liked bringing tough lists against other tough lists. Win or lose doesn't matter(still a fun game) but I didn't pull all my stuff out to lose. With WHFB the option for fun fluffy games were there and I had my fair share of them but it also let us who want to play competitively the ability to do so as well. Sure people had issues with the rules but it was far better then now. AOS doesn't allow the option for those of us who wish to play that kind of game anymore. GW has the ability to write a simple yet solid rule system(LOTR) that is scalable. Some of those people might have been dbags taking advantage of newer players or bringing tournament lists to friendly game sure but that's on that guy not the rest of us who choose to play eachother with that in mind.

Its called being a competative player.

a WAAC being a win at ALL cost. meaning he is the donkey cave willing to go above and beyond cheating and illegal activities to win.

a TFG is just That guy that you or the group cant get along with. anything from the smell of his pits, to the beard of his list.

 Desubot wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Call me TFG or not, couldn't care less, but I played WHFB to win the game. For me the challenge is the fun in the game. No I don't find the kid brand new to the hobby and bring my dual chimera, nurgle prince, nurgle chariots, and bsb on disc against him and mop the floor with him while savoring the sweet tears of defeat......(maybe in a tournament scene)

Either way plenty of us played the game because we liked bringing tough lists against other tough lists. Win or lose doesn't matter(still a fun game) but I didn't pull all my stuff out to lose. With WHFB the option for fun fluffy games were there and I had my fair share of them but it also let us who want to play competitively the ability to do so as well. Sure people had issues with the rules but it was far better then now. AOS doesn't allow the option for those of us who wish to play that kind of game anymore. GW has the ability to write a simple yet solid rule system(LOTR) that is scalable. Some of those people might have been dbags taking advantage of newer players or bringing tournament lists to friendly game sure but that's on that guy not the rest of us who choose to play eachother with that in mind.

Its called being a competative player.

a WAAC being a win at ALL cost. meaning he is the donkey cave willing to go above and beyond cheating and illegal activities to win.

a TFG is just That guy that you or the group cant get along with. anything from the smell of his pits, to the beard of his list.

Many people confuse them. They just see the guy who wins most of his games and others get salty, or the guy who beats up on the 13 year olds in the shop while they are still new. Plenty of people just view that as the same guy as the competitive player

but that's just it, AOS removed that ability for us competitive players. When those fluffy players always had the option in the game now all they did was kill it for us competitive players. Thus NOT a good move by gw

If anything, AoS offers even more possibilities for TFG. Especially if you want to screw over new players who aren't familiar with all units and their respective value on the battlefield. Without points, they cannot properly make a verdict on a unit's strength and are negatively surprised.

In WHFB, even if you did not know a lot about individual units, you knew that a model of 400 points was a very strong model and that a unit that costs 3ppm was rather weak. In AoS, as a beginner...good luck.

No problems when playing with friends, but again, in PUGs? Terrible.

I and my group only play for fun. None of us are competitive or even close to tournament level.

None of us find AoS enjoyable or even engaging.

I think in all honesty if you are a true fun player 8th should have been fine against other fun players. It also had enough depth to keep many people interested.

Drozer wrote:

The people that can't understand why the beard rules are there
The people that think you allowed to win with a screaming bell combo at turn 1
The people that can't sit and agree with who you have to play for limit in the armies if they don't have a point system

If AOS manage to get this people away, then GW finally won as they understand what the problem with WHFB was.

Well you did have a bad experience in that hobby store, you would have never been treated like that on a friday night at my FLGS. As for GW games (mostly 40K) seems to attract the WAAC and TFG player, however its do to poor rules development is what makes that possible.

With the exception of End Times and AOS when was the last time GW activily promoted WHFB. I've been with WHFB since 5th and I cant remember when the put effort equal to ET and AOS. Im just saying maybe it they made the effort before ET, just maybe, it wouldn't have been in the state it was.

I already play 2 skirmish based fantasy games Wrath of Kings, and malifaux. Wrath of Kings is fast paced easy to master and a really fun game. Malifaux is hard to master but has a depth of play that is intriguing.

I didn't want a new skirmish game to play, I played WHFB becuase it was regiment based. Thats why I'll be moving on.

Seems more people are distracted by a flashy new system that has more problems than 8th did.

Not sure if "Drozer" will be back, I will try to chalk it up to needing to vent.

Rude is rude, I would have to assume as well that he ran into our more socially awkward members of the community.

He found joy in the models, the game system seemed to suit his needs and GW service has done themselves proud.

The behavior of the "shop" people (I have to assume a FLGS) seems to reinforce GW's stance on the shopping "experience" needing control.

I hope he will have better luck with social media and find some happier elements of gamers.

The ONLY thing I can take away from this is I feel it is REALLY important to help the "newbies" to keep their excitement of the game and keep it fun for them.
It looks like he now has a ton of stuff and work invested in the game and it would be shame to see it sour.

I have an axe to grind with GW due to the personalities of the company but can only support my fellow gamers if they are looking for fun (not at the expense of others!).

AoS? Sure fine, it is new yet, the "real" books will come out soon and maybe they will get it right... we can only hope.

Apple fox wrote:
If GW wants to change this all, it has to be the drive for change. Age of sigmar isn't anything amazing. It's a game that GW is trying to sell off poor choices to market.

Looking through the rules fro AoS it's interesting how little change there is. It's still UGOIGO, and it still had the three stage resolution of attacks.

That said I am keen to step back into fantasy. The second hand price of GW fantasy minis is bound to fall and Dragon Rampant is out towards the end of the year. I can definitely see me making an army for it with second hand Dark Elves .

What is also a bonus safety net is the game "Kings of War" can be used to play as well. Starting up a fantasy has fairly low risk, but again, it is a hobby, it should not be something to be worried about.

Sigvatr wrote:An account that has been created today isn't quite a lurker account

You know you can actually read a forum without register right?

Doesn't stop power builders and meta knights.

never will.

Jambles wrote:False equivalency. The occurrence of TFGs aren't related to the rules of the game or anything: Age of Sigmar isn't going to fix a damn thing.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:"Do whatever you want!" Isn't the basis for a good game.

You guys are missing the point AND confirming it at the same time.

Is not the rules that created the toxic community BUT it will be the lack of rules that will purge it.

The "competitive", the WAAC the TFGs are attracted by the RAW, by exploiting the rules and think they smart because they break the system...

AOS is done assuming people play it as RAI, it's just totally impossible to play if you focus on the RAW.

I don't like the fact you can shoot if in combat, I will ignore that.
I don't like the magic system and I will be using my slightly custom one.

The smart move here from GW was exactly this: drop the ability to play with RAW at all: if you don't have the common sense to use RAI then you will not have fun, and you will eventually leave.

This will eventually push the toxicity away, because or you play for fun or there's not point to play (if you don't have a gentlement agreement is just broken, starting from "I bring whatever I have") and those kind of people have nothing if there is not any RAW to support their behavior. The community will initially shrink, losing this kind of people, but leaving the ones that want really just have fun and that will in the long term bring more people and with a positive overall experience.

As I understand warmachines have the better ruleset around AND the most competitive/unfriendly community as well.

P.S.
Before people start again with the tinfoil hats or call me fanboy or whatever: there's a lot of reasons where GW sucks, lots of things they cound do way better, lots of things they screw up. The concept behind AOS ("concept" being the keyword here) is not one of this but IMHO the best they could do to save fantasy: pinpoint that the problem has never been the game but the people play it.

Drozer wrote:


You guys are missing the point AND confirming it at the same time.

Is not the rules that created the toxic community BUT it will be the lack of rules that will purge it.

The "competitive", the WAAC the TFGs are attracted by the RAW, by exploiting the rules and think they smart because they break the system...

AOS is done assuming people play it as RAI, it's just totally impossible to play if you focus on the RAW.

I don't like the fact you can shoot if in combat, I will ignore that.
I don't like the magic system and I will be using my slightly custom one.

The smart move here from GW was exactly this: drop the ability to play with RAW at all: if you don't have the common sense to use RAI then you will not have fun, and you will eventually leave.

Thats how WHFB and 40K are played now RAI, AoS doesn't change this in fact it drives deeping into the hole. Didn't seem to help before.

Drozer wrote:


This will eventually push the toxicity away, because or you play for fun or there's not point to play (if you don't have a gentlement agreement is just broken, starting from "I bring whatever I have") and those kind of people have nothing if there is not any RAW to support their behavior. The community will initially shrink, losing this kind of people, but leaving the ones that want really just have fun and that will in the long term bring more people and with a positive overall experience.

As I understand warmachines have the better ruleset around AND the most competitive/unfriendly community as well.

And I understand all GW player like to buy over priced models, and don't care about other people ability to enjoy the game. But, it likely best not to belive stereotypes.

Drozer wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:An account that has been created today isn't quite a lurker account

You know you can actually read a forum without register right?

Doesn't stop power builders and meta knights.

never will.

Jambles wrote:False equivalency. The occurrence of TFGs aren't related to the rules of the game or anything: Age of Sigmar isn't going to fix a damn thing.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:"Do whatever you want!" Isn't the basis for a good game.

You guys are missing the point AND confirming it at the same time.

Is not the rules that created the toxic community BUT it will be the lack of rules that will purge it.

The "competitive", the WAAC the TFGs are attracted by the RAW, by exploiting the rules and think they smart because they break the system...

AOS is done assuming people play it as RAI, it's just totally impossible to play if you focus on the RAW.

I don't like the fact you can shoot if in combat, I will ignore that.
I don't like the magic system and I will be using my slightly custom one.

The smart move here from GW was exactly this: drop the ability to play with RAW at all: if you don't have the common sense to use RAI then you will not have fun, and you will eventually leave.

This will eventually push the toxicity away, because or you play for fun or there's not point to play (if you don't have a gentlement agreement is just broken, starting from "I bring whatever I have") and those kind of people have nothing if there is not any RAW to support their behavior. The community will initially shrink, losing this kind of people, but leaving the ones that want really just have fun and that will in the long term bring more people and with a positive overall experience.

As I understand warmachines have the better ruleset around AND the most competitive/unfriendly community as well.

P.S.
Before people start again with the tinfoil hats or call me fanboy or whatever: there's a lot of reasons where GW sucks, lots of things they cound do way better, lots of things they screw up. The concept behind AOS ("concept" being the keyword here) is not one of this but IMHO the best they could do to save fantasy: pinpoint that the problem has never been the game but the people play it.

As has been pointed out, D&D has toxic players and TFGs.

A completely co-operative and narrative game with no reason to compete with other party members... has TFGs.

You're also falling for the common fallacy that all TFGs are competitive rules lawyers, not to mention the other common fallacy that all competitive players are TFG or WAAC (or to put in non-sugar coated terms, bad people).

Also you're ignoring that AoS as a loose rule set will also lead to even heavier fragmenting and arguing as people adapt their own versions of "RAI". Which is more attractive, a larger player base playing a game... or a fractured community where people refuse to play each other "because I don't want to play with silly rules" or "I don't like being able to shoot into combat so we should play like that".

What is more attractive, "Here are some rule variants officially endorsed by the company that makes the game. You can look at them anytime on their website." or "We do it this way even though the rules say differently because we don't like it."

Hopefully that will give people reading this some counter-thought to what you're saying.

Personally it was different for me. It was merely all the massive change. I mean you hear all the craziness bull like round bases, sig-marines and 'this is the end of fantasy!' before it even comes out. Then July 4th came and i went to the store and in fact on July 3rd i saw the warscrolls. It's taken me about till now to recover from it (sorry if i'm being too dramatic). I'll still probably play the game but having most of the stuff i had is now not needed. I could probably field armies for 3 people with the current army i now have and have collected for a while. The special rules are gone, half the stats don't exist anymore and overall everything has been super simplified.

I'm more angry this has replaced warhammer fantasy completely and the fact everything has changed up to the point warhammer fantasy and age of sigmar are about as different as mordheim to fantasy or possibly even about as bad as 40k to space hulk.

If they wanted to axe off an entire game why didn't they just do it to LotR and the hobbit which supposedly only make 2% of their profits. Instead you axe off the oldest game they currently own. Change isn't bad but too much change all at once will be fought against and should be. The lore has changed and that's the least they changed. The story, gameplay and pretty much everything except models themselves have changed. Fantasy wasn't a bad game and i'll play Age of Sigmar. However the option to play both without axing off fantasy would've been nice.

I honestly wish they just waited for all the warhammer fantasy games to come out before making this decision. Personally i think GW's inability to branch out into other outlets (video games mostly) is holding them back as a company. If it wasn't for the 'dawn of war' series i wouldn't even have played 40k.

I hate the competitive players too but i just want some sort of clue when playing my games. Nobody can even figure out who's better because the game has no points conditions or anything. I could take 30 clanrats and a wizard and my opponent could take 50 chaos warriors and 2 heroes and there's not much i can do. I have no idea of what lists to build before a battle for a points limit since none of this exists. Basically i dunno how to even ****ing play! Personally it's the 'beard' rules, the points and maybe one or two other things holding this system back. I wouldn't mind playing it even after it cut down most of what it was.

Sure the game needed simplification but you could've done so by cutting down 3/4 of the special rules and simplying more of the general rules without changing everything so much. Oh and people have a right to be mad over buying 'end times' books for 70+ USD only for everything in the books to now be invalid in a few months. This is another thing killing GW. Players don't like wasting their hard earned cash for a change GW makes on a whim just for the lolz.

I gave AOS a try and just couldn't get into it. It doesn't feel like warhammer to me, especially the new models. I don't think AOS gets rid of WAAC, TFG, or any other versions of it. Every single game has those types of people, losing a bunch of players is not going to change that fact.