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Eveyone votes INQ not realizing the whole thing is a Xanatos gambit to cause doubt in a member of the Grey Knights, and through that doubt corrupt them.

The Inquisition just happened to willingly fall into the role they were to play, Just as Planned.

So it's grim dark because the Wolves are Right, but no one sees it that way. Sure, there could still be cultists hiding on Armageddon, and people still know that daemons exist. So what? You don't think that the Thousand Sons or the Alpha legion couldn't introduce that belief later, if they needed to?

Nor did ignorance of the Atheric entities save the people dedicated to the Imperial Truth pre heresy. It may have even made it easier for them to be corrupted.

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

Something to bare in mind about the 1st Armageddon War is that the fluff hasn't really changed from 1st edition. Back then there were no surgical mind wipes, it was ALL or nothing with the recipient unable to even feed themselves, requiring years of rehabilitation before they could even be retrained. Worth it for a Space Marine, a bit pointless for anyone else.

Durandal wrote:
Eveyone votes INQ not realizing the whole thing is a Xanatos gambit to cause doubt in a member of the Grey Knights, and through that doubt corrupt them.

The Inquisition just happened to willingly fall into the role they were to play, Just as Planned.

So it's grim dark because the Wolves are Right, but no one sees it that way. Sure, there could still be cultists hiding on Armageddon, and people still know that daemons exist. So what? You don't think that the Thousand Sons or the Alpha legion couldn't introduce that belief later, if they needed to?

Nor did ignorance of the Atheric entities save the people dedicated to the Imperial Truth pre heresy. It may have even made it easier for them to be corrupted.

Except no one doubts the GK. Those who would be subject to such died.

Going to have to agree with Psienesis on that part. The Grey Knights were designed to be incorruptible, so I highly doubt some in-fighting with the space wolves is going to lead to their downfall. If anything it might lead the wolves to corruption as they seek new allies after being disillusioned with the Inquisition.

Durandal is getting confused with a different incident that didn't involve Space Wolves.

The Inquisition's doctrine wasn't even consistent. If it only takes one man to corrupt a planet then the Inquisitors themselves should have been lining up the firing squad- the slew of Inquisitors who fall to Chaos every day are proof that they're just as susceptible to its machinations as any other human.

In any case, it took months/years for the Inquisition and Grey Knights to track down most of the Guardsmen who fought in the war (they never found them all, meaning there's probably thousands of Guard who fought there that are still on other planets), and during that time no planet is on record for having been corrupted by tainted Armageddon Guardsmen, so their over-caution was pointless anyway.

Beyond "muh authority", the Inquisition really didn't have a leg to stand on.

In any case, it took months/years for the Inquisition and Grey Knights to track down most of the Guardsmen who fought in the war (they never found them all, meaning there's probably thousands of Guard who fought there that are still on other planets), and during that time no planet is on record for having been corrupted by tainted Armageddon Guardsmen, so their over-caution was pointless anyway.

Um, no?

They tracked every ship that managed to make the jump and committed Exterminatus on their points of destination.

Not according to TEG, iirc.

Though, even if they did, with warp travel being as slow as it is you're still talking months to years at minimum before they got to them all.

Don't have the book immediately on hand, but Lexicanum quotes chapters 19 and 20 as providing the source for that.

Lexicanum wrote:Any world or outpost that came into contact with the survivors was subject to Exterminatus by Grey Knights ships, resulting the destruction of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica station Ralas Meridian, the worlds of Jendara Quintus and Tybuilt, and the Adeptus Mechanicus outpost of Priam Novus. The Inquisition meanwhile hunted down the troop transports themselves, destroying them in Warp transit. It seemed that the Space Wolves actions had only doomed even more worlds to destruction. As the months went by, some elements within the Inqisitorial side pragmatically realized that a complete purge was becoming increasingly unfeasible; combined with Lord Inquisitor Kysnaros's handling of the Wolves and the aftermath of the war, dissension had taken root.

as for the Xantos Gambit. it was a single new grey knight having a MOMENT of doubt over the purging of a world.(not armageddon) the book very specificly uses the phrase "moment of doubt" so yeah it could be a path to corruption.... or Brother Brutus gives it no more thought and nothing happens of it.

Further, doubt in the Inquisition by a Grey Knight isn't corruption. It's a highly-advanced psychic killing machine watching someone who is not such a one make strategic decisions. Not him doubting in the Emperor and deciding to glue spikes onto everything.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

but if you mind-wipe people it is genocide. That's the very definition, like the original definition of genocide. Actually all of the plans were genocide.

The term genocide was coined in 1944, and it was defined in a way that would include what you describe. If you want to use the term genocide, it has to mean this:


Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.


If you mean mass murder, then you have to say mass murder.

Eliminating knowledge of Chaos would not be a coordinated plan of actions aiming at the destruction of elemental foundations of the lives of national groups at all. It would not be an attempt at destroying them, the disintegration of them, their culture, language, religion, national feelings, their economic existence, personal security, liberty, health, dignity, or their lives. If anything, mindwiping would preserve every single one of these by preserving their lives and preventing their corruption by Chaos, and would therefore not be genocide.


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 Gashrog wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

Something to bare in mind about the 1st Armageddon War is that the fluff hasn't really changed from 1st edition. Back then there were no surgical mind wipes, it was ALL or nothing with the recipient unable to even feed themselves, requiring years of rehabilitation before they could even be retrained. Worth it for a Space Marine, a bit pointless for anyone else.

I never knew that, thanks for the info.


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BrianDavion wrote:
as for the Xantos Gambit. it was a single new grey knight having a MOMENT of doubt over the purging of a world.(not armageddon) the book very specificly uses the phrase "moment of doubt" so yeah it could be a path to corruption.... or Brother Brutus gives it no more thought and nothing happens of it.

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

or it'll be forgotten about like one of the zillions of other plothooks GW's put out and done nothing with over the years.

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

GK are incapable of falling to corruption.

 Psienesis wrote:

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

GK are incapable of falling to corruption.

That is a fallacious assumption. Imperial propaganda about the Grey Knights says that they are infallable, but that does not mean they actually are immune to corruption. The Primarchs were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them - and they were the product of the Emperor's most powerful attempts at creating beings immune to Chaos with his own DNA. The Legiones Astartes were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them.

And when I say propaganda, I mean what the Grey Knights tell their Neophytes and other Space Marines, Inquisitors, High Lords, etc. etc.

I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

sure except it seems roughly 50% of the people who voted on the poll are in disagreement with you both sides had their reasons for doing what they did. good reasons that where defensable. this is what makes the story so grey. it would have, I agree, been VERY VERY easy to write this novel from the space wolf POV and make the inqusition out to be cartoonish monsters instead b y making the novel from a GKs POV, (and paring the GKs up with an inqusitoner sympathetic to the space wolves ADB allowed us to really see all sides of the conflict. although I'd say Annika as an inqusitoner was honestly one of the weaker parts of the book. she acted more like a chapter serf then an independant inqusitor.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

GK are incapable of falling to corruption.

That is a fallacious assumption. Imperial propaganda about the Grey Knights says that they are infallable, but that does not mean they actually are immune to corruption. The Primarchs were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them - and they were the product of the Emperor's most powerful attempts at creating beings immune to Chaos with his own DNA. The Legiones Astartes were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them.

And when I say propaganda, I mean what the Grey Knights tell their Neophytes and other Space Marines, Inquisitors, High Lords, etc. etc.

Well, not a single Grey Knight has fallen for 10,000 years since their creation. That's a better record than any other Imperial force.

For all intents and purposes, they ARE incorruptible. There is no evidence to say that they are able to be tainted.

Jimsolo wrote:I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

The thing is that you are ignoring pertinent details, such as the corruption seeded in the guardsmen that needed to be stopped. The Wolves might have had a leg to stand on if they'd been able to suggest an alternative, but they couldn't. They're no better than the Pro-lifers who wash their hands of an unwanted baby once its born.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, not a single Grey Knight has fallen for 10,000 years since their creation. That's a better record than any other Imperial force.

For all intents and purposes, they ARE incorruptible. There is no evidence to say that they are able to be tainted.

*cough*Alaric*Cough*.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

The thing is that you are ignoring pertinent details, such as the corruption seeded in the guardsmen that needed to be stopped. The Wolves might have had a leg to stand on if they'd been able to suggest an alternative, but they couldn't. They're no better than the Pro-lifers who wash their hands of an unwanted baby once its born.

and, just as important the Space Wolves KNEW what the policy was, they just seemed to think they could dictate and bluster otherwise.

here's an extract of Logan speaking to the Grey Knight Captain leading the inital reinforcements.

"Hives Helsreach and Infernus have seen nothing of the true threat. Their citizens have remained safe behind high walls, far from the war.' He turned his eyes back on our captain 'Do I make myself clear?' .... "with the cities untouched and the people free from taint, they will not be "processed" by the Inqusition Am I making myself clearer?"

So this guy clearly KNOWS what the Inqusitions MO is in this case, and he's trying to basicly dictate and bluster otherwise to the Grey Knight commander (ignoring the arrogance of trying to dictate how the inqusition does it's job, he's dictating to the wrong person) so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.
that kind of additude might work on some spineless inbred planetary governer, it might cow a Imperial Guard regimental commander (although I'd wager even then it'd not cow a Cadian of Catachan commander) but it sure as hell isn't gonna work on a independant space marine chapter that knows the enemy better then you do. and the idea it'd word on the inqusition is even more laughable.

It is typical Space Wolf arrogance though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It is typical Space Wolf arrogance though.

it's extremely typical. and as I said the Space Wolves have gotten away with it plenty because their status as a first founding chapter useally allows em to dictate things. in the inqusition and grey knights they found pretty much one of the few forces in the IoM that really doesn't care

 Jimsolo wrote:
I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

You're approaching the story from the mindset of our current time. In the mindset of 40K, the Inquisition is more than justified.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

You're approaching the story from the mindset of our current time. In the mindset of 40K, the Inquisition is more than justified.

Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

BrianDavion wrote:
so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.

"call on the Inquisition to help handle this"


Like Armageddon falling to the forces of Chaos was some thing that the Inquisition was ambivalent about or something. Logan Grimnar called for help because he knew his forces wouldn't be enough to save Armageddon when Angron himself showed up. Hence the 911 call to the Grey Knights.

The Space Wolves are one of two chapters of Space Marines that actually give a crap about humans. Oh don't get me wrong, all the chapters care about the Imperium and humanity in general. The Space Wolves and the Salamanders are pretty much the only Chapters that give a crap about humans as persons though. This wasn't "you'll do what I saw because I'm a space Viking"; this was "you'll spare those people because they are innocents who have seen and heard nothing about what was going on here". Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.



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BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

I don't know that you don't have a suicide vest on. Clearly when you come near a puppy I should shoot you in the head, just to be sure.

Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.

Mercy is the sin of the foolish.

The Wolves were in the right. The Inquisition in many cases isn't any better than Chaos, and in some cases, the Inquisition is actually worse.
When fighting a dragon, one should take care not to become a dragon himself. The Inquisition has long since crossed this border and fallen to Chaos. There is no possible victory against Chaos, the actions of the Inquisition with all their plotting, murder and corruption strenghten Chaos rather than weaken it.
The whole of the Imperium has already fallen to Chaos, they just haven't realised yet.

In this case, the choice was between an act that might strenghten Chaos (if corruption had indeed spread amongst the population of Armageddon) or an action that would certainly strenghten Chaos (and have almost the same effect if Chaos would have won the war).

Obviously the moral code of the Space Wolves does not allow for murdering of innocent( well presumably anyways) whereas the Inquisition and Grey Knights do not.

There is the conflict. I'm not even sure if right and wrong are applicable in this situation. Both factions were fighting for humanity, and clearly decided their opponent was in the wrong.

@Psienesis:Where do you get those quotes? They sound like they came straight out of an inquisition novel.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:


@Psienesis:Where do you get those quotes? They sound like they came straight out of an inquisition novel.

Imperial Thought for the Day

... though a lot of them are just from various side-bars in various codices and such, they're just in my head.

 streamdragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.

"call on the Inquisition to help handle this"


Like Armageddon falling to the forces of Chaos was some thing that the Inquisition was ambivalent about or something. Logan Grimnar called for help because he knew his forces wouldn't be enough to save Armageddon when Angron himself showed up. Hence the 911 call to the Grey Knights.

The Space Wolves are one of two chapters of Space Marines that actually give a crap about humans. Oh don't get me wrong, all the chapters care about the Imperium and humanity in general. The Space Wolves and the Salamanders are pretty much the only Chapters that give a crap about humans as persons though. This wasn't "you'll do what I saw because I'm a space Viking"; this was "you'll spare those people because they are innocents who have seen and heard nothing about what was going on here". Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.



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BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

I don't know that you don't have a suicide vest on. Clearly when you come near a puppy I should shoot you in the head, just to be sure.

you can bill it as empathy but it was what it was. Logan Grimnar trying to dictate terms to the inqusition through the Grey Knights (which made him look pretty ignorant) despite knowing what the Grey Knights deploying would mean. You're right, the GKs where proably needed, at that point it should have become a chocie to save what he could.


as for your sucide vest comparison, doesn't hold water because you have no reason to belive it. However it's worth noting that if I ran at a military check point in the middile east, they proably would gun me down (fun fact. I know someone who had a machine gun pointed at them because their 12 foot sailing dingy got a little too close to a docked US nuclear submarine.) the Inqusition has been dealing with the hard facts of chaos for the last 10,000 years. they don't show up, finish a fight the IG's been fighting for months, declare victory, and fly away. the Inqusition deals with the harsh realities of the aftermath.

no one cheered when old yeller was shot, but we understood it was nesscary.