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Hello!

Still trying to optimize my TAC list for the new SM codex, meant for very competitive play. I quite like the Gladius and i go down that path.
Please review and comment!


Battle Company:
Khan - Moondrakkan
Chaplain - Bike

Command Squad - Bikes, apothecary, 4x grav-guns, razorback las/plas (hey, nothing in the codex forbids a bike command squad to take a transport )
Command Squad - 4x metagun, Drop Pod

Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - meltagun, combi-melta, Drop Pod
Tac Squad (5 men) - meltagun, combi-melta, Drop Pod

Land Speeder
Land Speeder - 2x multi-melta

Dev Squad (5 men) - 4x lascannons, razorback las/plas
Dev Squad (5 men) - 3x missile launcher, lascannon, razorback las/plas


10th Company Taskforce

Scouts (5 men) - sniper rifles
Scouts (5 men) - bolters, land speeder storm
Scouts (5 men) - bolters, land speeder storm


Obviously Khan and the Chaplain join the bike command squad.
Almost everything has scout, used as needed.
I believe i have a balanced amount of anti-armour and anti-horde weapons, note that in my area flier heavy lists are not common at all

Comments? Suggestions? is it strong enough?
Thanks!

Looks like a really strong army. The only thing you don't have covered is AA but you have so many units it shouldn't be much of a problem to get by without it. If it were my list I would just take 3 barebones scout units without the LSS and try to squeeze in something like a TFC or even a stormtalon. This is just me nitpicking though its truly a great list.

Bikers cant take additional transports, even Command bikers, surely. Although saying that Battlescribe lets me, though, that means nothing.

Thanks for the feedback!

i would love a TFC and some Stormtalons but unfortunately the only way to field them in a Gladius is through the Armoured Speardhead and Stormwing formations, and that is 265 pts needed before fielding a TFC.

Giving transports to Scouts greatly improves their uses and flexibility, though i am open to suggestions what i could alternatively to do with these points.



The SM codex states that a command squad can take a transport and does not have an exclusion rule if they take bikes, like the assault squad that states "if the squad does not take jump packs, they can take a dedicated transport"

Can you point me to a rule that prevents them from taking a razorback?

I believe you are allowed to take the transport, RAW.

I'm considering using some rhino's for the Plaz/combi Plz tac squads- allowing them to scout move 12", move the tank 6", and taking the 4 plas shots (re-rolling 1's because of either the DEV or TAC doctrine of course!) from the safety of the Rhino. Should be pretty good when 3-4 units roll up and shoot the same target possibly.

Or, maybe I should be taking the Razorbacks... I dunno...

I am bothered by the Scouts as the auxiliary of the Gladius.

They cost total 250 pts.

Do you think these could be better spent on another formation?

@Btothefnrock rhinos are solid in a battle company, dont feel forced to take razors. But yeah, like you said you want to load them up with special and combi weapons to shoot out the hatch. I've also seen people just take a grav cannon in a rhino and do work, 4 squads like that and 2 with double melta and you have a pretty solid core to your army.

@spartiatis okay I don't really know the SM formations well so it looks like your choices are probably as good as they're gonna get. You have so much shooting that I would personally not use the sniper scouts but that's just me. The scouts make great use of the hit and run tactic and I personally think that it's their strength, to be annoying and in your opponents face. Though I can see the merit to have an objective camping unit. Still think the list looks great and you'll do well.

My other option instead of the scouts would be a suppression formation, 2 whirlwinds and a land speeder. It comes to 175 pts, meaning i could save 75 pts from the scouts and upgrade all my speeders to HB and typhoon ml and also all MLs to lascannons in my second dev squad.

So, what do you think is best? Some extra anti-horde firepower and 6 ml shots or fast zooming assault scouts?

the bikes obviously can't take a transport.

jakejackjake wrote:
the bikes obviously can't take a transport.

Why not? They are permitted to take one, and not restricted from taking one. They can't ride in it of course, but there's nothing to stop them taking it.

 Zavvy wrote:
@Btothefnrock rhinos are solid in a battle company, dont feel forced to take razors. But yeah, like you said you want to load them up with special and combi weapons to shoot out the hatch. I've also seen people just take a grav cannon in a rhino and do work, 4 squads like that and 2 with double melta and you have a pretty solid core to your army.

@spartiatis okay I don't really know the SM formations well so it looks like your choices are probably as good as they're gonna get. You have so much shooting that I would personally not use the sniper scouts but that's just me. The scouts make great use of the hit and run tactic and I personally think that it's their strength, to be annoying and in your opponents face. Though I can see the merit to have an objective camping unit. Still think the list looks great and you'll do well.

No they aren't. You should never be taking 10 man squads so losing firepower for absolutely no reason is pretty bad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
the bikes obviously can't take a transport.

Why not? They are permitted to take one, and not restricted from taking one. They can't ride in it of course, but there's nothing to stop them taking it.

Yeah as written you are correct. I doubt it was intentional but I guess it is allowed

Back to the original topic, which one do you think benefits my list more? The Suppression or the 10th Company formation?

So the core looks solid not a lot I'd change in the battle company. Except maybe a storm shield or 2 in the grav command it is a VERY juicy target at the moment. Whilst just going 4 MLs on the 2nd Dev squad.

The big efficiency gains begin in the auxiliary. If going for LSS Scouts then CCWs or at least shotguns is a far better choice than bolters, also makes H&R more useful. Though the list lacks AA which an AADF brings in spades though you'd have to find some points to field it as it is 295 points (if you're getting 2 Stalkers you are inefficient compared to the huge boost at 3).

Finally I don't really get the CTs. IFs and IHs do this type of list much better so why take WS? Scouting the command is useful but that is a maximum of 1 turn impact and you give up access to the Beatstick Chapter Master you'd run instead of him in either of the other tactics.

@jakejackjake what are you referring to? You quoted my whole post so I don't know what you're disagreeing with. I've seen 5 man units in rhinos with grav cannons do work,watch the 2 latest frontline gaming batreps, great example of using an army like this.

I can scout the Razorbacks as well, since they have a 24" gun.
The main reason though is H&R. My list is as shooty as possible and there is no better way to avoid being shot than being in combat. H&R is my counter to this.

Agreed on the CCW on the Scouts and the SS on the Command squad.

Between 10th and suppression, which formation complements the rest of the list better in your opinion?

Definitely suppression since it fills a need as opposed to the 10th that simply adds more to your strength... Both make sense but the suppression seems better for tac

Suppression has 2 advantages over the Scouts. Firstly it covers a weakness (AA). Secondly it adds to the vehicle target saturation.

As for H&R I don't really see the use here. With the ObSec spam you don't need to table people to win comfortably. Most of your threatening units can't be locked in combat and the other units that can will get wiped in a turn by anything remotely threatening so not much benefit from H&R there. Whilst the unit with some combat potential that stands most to gain from H&R (the command squad) would not need H&R if you had the CM in there instead of Khan.

Do you really, honestly think a unit that is on bikes would arrive in a razorback. I guess whoever plays you can judge how the game is going to go with you, if that is how you interpret transports. Sorry, but taking a transport for a unit, when you have already put them on bikes is a bit lame. Especially when you have considered and discussed it, and know it is a wording grey area. I suggest you don't, and save your opponent any hassle.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
Do you really, honestly think a unit that is on bikes would arrive in a razorback. I guess whoever plays you can judge how the game is going to go with you, if that is how you interpret transports. Sorry, but taking a transport for a unit, when you have already put them on bikes is a bit lame. Especially when you have considered and discussed it, and know it is a wording grey area. I suggest you don't, and save your opponent any hassle.

Squads don't need to be embarked in their Dedicated Transports during deployment. And it follows the same principle of a 10-man Tactical Squad taking a Razorback as a DT. They can't all embark on it, but they can still take it. Other armies have a similar phenomenon, such as Necron Praetorians (Jump Infantry) having a Night Scythe as a Dedicated Transport, despite not being able to embark on it (since they are Jump Infantry and the NS doesn't have a specific rule allowing them to embark).

Exactly, i do not mean to embark a bike command squad in a razorback, i just buy the transport to have an extra tank on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Suppression has 2 advantages over the Scouts. Firstly it covers a weakness (AA). Secondly it adds to the vehicle target saturation.

As for H&R I don't really see the use here. With the ObSec spam you don't need to table people to win comfortably. Most of your threatening units can't be locked in combat and the other units that can will get wiped in a turn by anything remotely threatening so not much benefit from H&R there. Whilst the unit with some combat potential that stands most to gain from H&R (the command squad) would not need H&R if you had the CM in there instead of Khan.

The suppression force is not the hunter/stalker unit, it consists of 2 Whirlwinds and a Land Speeder.
It gives me some precision anti-horde and anti-cover heavy unit firepower.


I would consider IH tactics if i took the CM but currently it is debatable if all IH vehicles have ITWD and i would need to find 100 pts more.
It is bit tight...

Sorry meant AADF not suppression force hordes are not strong right now and you've decent horde control with volume fire already. The AADF also brings ignores cover.

Yeah going IHs probably forces you to take the Scouts. Also IFs work well for the tank hunting Devs.

The Razorback on command is not debatable it is very clearly allowed in the rules. Not sure what Nostromo is getting at there. Likewise IH vehicles have literally no more permission to benefit from CTs than anyone else's does, so I don't see why that is even a debate either.

Well atleast you're trying something different and the strength of the list type will carry you through many games and H&R may help you against multi assaulting deathstars (Dogstar and ThunderKnightstar I'm looking at you). With the list as is I'd go with the AADF if sticking to WS CTs.

Right now i am leaning towards the suppression force, i find the hunter\stalker formation has a very specific role for a TAC list and in my area the meta is not flier heavy.

I have limited it down to 2 lists, please help me decide which is better.

LIST 1:

Khan - Moondrakkan
Chaplain - Bike

Command Squad - Bikes, apothecary, 4x grav-guns, 3x storm shields, razorback las/plas
Command Squad - 4x metagun, Drop Pod

Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - meltagun, combi-melta, Drop Pod
Tac Squad (5 men) - meltagun, combi-melta, Drop Pod

Land Speeder - HB, typhoon ML
Land Speeder - HB, typhoon ML

Dev Squad (5 men) - 4x lascannons, razorback las/plas
Dev Squad (5 men) - 4x missile launcher, razorback las/plas


Suppression Force:
Whirlwind
Whirlwind
Land Speeder - HB, typhoon ML

This way i have a lot more firepower on the ground (both anti-armour and anti-horde) and a kitted out command squad


LIST 2:


Khan - Moondrakkan
Chaplain - Bike

Command Squad - Bikes, apothecary, 4x grav-guns,

Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - plasmagun, combi-plasma, razorback, tl-assault cannon
Tac Squad (5 men) - meltagun, combi-melta, Drop Pod
Tac Squad (5 men) - meltagun, combi-melta, Drop Pod

Land Speeder - HB
Land Speeder - HB

Dev Squad (5 men) - 4x lascannons, Drop Pod
Dev Squad (5 men) - 4x missile launcher, razorback las/plas

Stormwing formation:
Stormraven - tl assault cannon, tl multi-melta
Stormtalon - skyhammer ML
Stormtalon - skyhammer ML

This way i lose the firepower from 2 razors, 3 typhoon ml and the melta command squad as well as the SS on the bike command squad and of course the suppression formation.
But i gain significant air superiority and ground support, which unfortunately depends on a single 3+ roll at the start of 2nd turn.


Which one do you think is better?

I know troops dont have to be embarked in their transports at the start, lol. I was being literal. As in, could you actually picture a biker command squad entering the battle in the 41st millenium, bombs going off all around, then a razorback dropping its ramp, and 5 huge bikes racing out the crammed interior lol, i just think its lame to exploit such an obviously badly worded rule, that you think because it doesnt actually, specifically say that you cant fit loads of bikes and marines in the back of a razor, that you can. Does the spirit of the game not mean anything to you? Sad really.

I agree with you with all my heart, but what i try here to do is build a list that is meant for winning tournaments and is different from all other cheese-fests that exploit allying 3 different armies and completely broken psychic powers. In that spirit, i believe taking an extra tank with decent firepower for 20 pts is completely within the competitive nature of the list, and i mostly envision it as a Razor covering an advancing bike squad with its guns, rather than bikes disembarking from the rear door.

Your help would be greatly appreciated if you helped me choose the best between the two lists i posted above.
Thank you for your feedback!

Dont get me wrong the gladius is very powerful without cheating (exploiting). I just had a game versus a necron decurion (and did a recent thread about how strong it was) with my 12 razor gladius kicking necron metal ass lol. But i would have liked to put my hqs with a command squad of bikers, and also take a command bikers transport on top of their bikes, to make it even stronger. But I personally would not feel comfortable doing that. And wouldnt be happy if my opponent did either. Thats me though and it looks like several other people in this thread think the same too. Which is nice to see. I just wish more people played for the fun, not just to try and win win win at all costs. Anyway, Ive been wargaming GW for 30 years and you always get divided opinion, so no hard feelings.

We agree in essence. I too prefer casual play with more fluffy lists when playing friends, but this is indeed a WAAC list

Well in that case, take maximum razors/pods and command grav bikers, all las devs and lots of grav cannon/amps and blow him off the table in a couple of turns. Id take razors over rhinos though. TL AP4 Rending AssCans are sweet and very versatile, with Gravs helping out with AT and lots of vehicle guns it provides an overwhelming amount of firepower, that your opponent will be astonished at, at the points value. The number of times I got "thats not 1750" last week

Dont think sniper scouts are weak because of their low cost. Their worth is in their ability to be redeployed to a sweet spot and take out or harass MCs and special units and make your opponent think or change his plan. Im a firm believer in boots on the ground, and giving your opponent a lot to shift. Basic marines are better than some people give them credit for especialy obsec ones, in very large numbers.

If it is a WAAC list why need advice? Just cheat to win if you want to WAACs. Take some loaded dice, a tape measure with long inches and free razorbacks for your Landspeeders.

However from a competitive stance I prefer the 1st list as it has more reliability. EldAIR will cause you problems with no AA though but if your meta is light on flyers you can get away with it. Also I don't understand why list 2 doesn't have a HB Razorback for the command? List 1 probably needs some reserve manipulation if you want to win a Tournament with it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If it is a WAAC list why need advice? Just cheat to win if you want to WAACs. Take some loaded dice, a tape measure with long inches and free razorbacks for your Landspeeders.

Aha, now that some perfect advice i had not considered.Speak of thinking outside the box!!

 FlingitNow wrote:

However from a competitive stance I prefer the 1st list as it has more reliability. EldAIR will cause you problems with no AA though but if your meta is light on flyers you can get away with it. Also I don't understand why list 2 doesn't have a HB Razorback for the command? List 1 probably needs some reserve manipulation if you want to win a Tournament with it.

Agreed on the HB razorback, you are completely correct
I believe you mean List 2, not List 1, needs reserve manipulation?

Yes you are correct sir.