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Fair being fair, their peripheral stuff has always been ridiculously priced. When GW produces a non game-necessary peripheral, i just pretty much pour brain bleach on the part of my brain that registered its existence.

Just to address a few things mentioned:

- AoS lowers the barrier to entry for play, because the number of models for an army is indisputably lower than WHFB. Never was it promised that, per model, the hobby would be cheaper.

- Before AoS, I've argued repeatedly that on a price-per-model, GW is quite competitive; the question, from a modelling standpoint is whether you like the models or not.

- AoS doesn't need to be cheaper per model or per army than its primary rivals. It just needs to be in the same ballpark.

- 5 Stormcast Eternals for $50 is no more a cash grab than 5 Trollkin Long Riders (50mm) for $110 or 5 Trollkin Warders (40mm) for $45. It's a very average price for models in today's market for a 50mm base. Likewise, 10 Trollkin scattergunners are $60 and 10 Eternal Guard are $40. Again, it's just the price of minis from the major wargame manufacturers.

- Just because a starter box is a great price doesn't mean that every other model should be comparable in price. Again, just look at WMH as a comparable. Or Dark Vengeance in 40k. The biggest difference is that the starter box models in AoS are actually GREAT -- both for the game, and as models, at least, a lot of people think so. If you think they're neither, rather, that they're underwhelming plastic scrap, obviously, you should play another game.

- The bottom line is the bottom line. Every miniature or gaming company needs to make money and will charge as much as it thinks it can for its products to maximize its profits.

Oh man, people talking about the bottom line as a consumer is so hilariously stockholm syndrome.

A business is a business, but you are a customer and consumer. You are not part of some grand GW experience, you just consume what they put out. And you should be concerned over what you are getting in the exchange. After all, you have your own bottom line too.

When you forget that, you are truly doomed to be nothing more than part of a bar on a graph.

It's perfectly reasonable to want lower prices, and good rules, and a practical cost for both entry and to have a good full sized game.

 Vertrucio wrote:

A business is a business, but you are a customer and consumer. You are not part of some grand GW experience, you just consume what they put out. And you should be concerned over what you are getting in the exchange. After all, you have your own bottom line too.

I agree! if you like it and find the price reasonable, buy it. Otherwise, don't.

When you forget that, you are truly doomed to be nothing more than part of a bar on a graph.

That's all I am to the companies who sell me practically everything I spend money on, and I'm just fine with that. Marvel doesn't care about me with regards to Avengers 4, not really any more than Microsoft does me with Halo. I expect exactly the same from GW, and from Winsor & Newton with my brushes.

Incidentally, even though I amam individually insignificant, the bar is not insignificant, so I do vote with my dollars.

It's perfectly reasonable to want lower prices, and good rules, and a practical cost for both entry and to have a good full sized game.

Of course. But it's also perfectly reasonable to accept prices for what they are while wishing they were less; and it's even reasonable to see $300 or so as not much money to build an army of miniatures for a game.

My comment above was reported as impolite, I apologise to anyone who was insulted by it as it was not my intention, I sometimes come off as impolite but in my heart I am all about respect and love.

Aside - consider the "limited" army book / codex dice tins ran about $18, I'd call it roughly a $22 dice shaker (since it comes with a set of "limited" dice).

GW has increasingly become more out of touch with its desired player base. They are looking for more youthful players who will get mommy and daddy to pull out the credit card and fork over the rent money for timmys plastic addiction. The issue with what they are doing is as soon as timmy has the cord cut he can no longer afford his habit.

Yes IMO gw produces the BEST quality(some times unimaginative though) plastic minis. With that though their pricing is really pushing players to buy second hand, use bits sellers to piece together kits at bargain rates, etc. I know for myself and several other players in my age group do not have the funds to support the hobby as we would like and what we do get to spend doesn't get us much from the game. I know for myself over the years ive invested quite a bit into warhammer so I have a decent collection. I will NOT put a penny of money into AOS simply because I am not sold on the rules and the incentive to spend is not there. The price of entry has gone down since you can play with 1 box if you wish but the reasonable price of entry is not down at all. With rumors of the books coming(which salt to be applied) but it seems to make sense from Gw's standpoint of squeezing every penny they can from players. The longer i spend a customer of GW's the less i enjoy their product it seems.

I don't think we want to re-ignite the pricing debate.

However if you are looking for a cheap way to get an army for AOS, there are lots of historical boxed sets on the market.

For example Perry Bros French Curassiers look very High Elvish with their tall plumed helmets and cost only £20 for a box of 14.

If you want something more mediaeval, the Agincourt and WoTR sets are worth considering.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think we want to re-ignite the pricing debate.

However if you are looking for a cheap way to get an army for AOS, there are lots of historical boxed sets on the market.

For example Perry Bros French Curassiers look very High Elvish with their tall plumed helmets and cost only £20 for a box of 14.

If you want something more mediaeval, the Agincourt and WoTR sets are worth considering.

Ill use what I have but I wont waste time or money building and painting new stuff

So we are just gonna ignore that every single new rule for AoS has been free, including all army rules and the core rules, and just focus on things you don't actually need to play the game?

You get roughly 50 models for about 125usd. Based on how the new golden boy kits are 50, how is that not amazing? Free figure in a white dwarf? How long since thats happened?

I swear its "dakkadakka:where the glass is always half empty ALWAYS"

die toten hosen wrote:
So we are just gonna ignore that every single new rule for AoS has been free, including all army rules and the core rules, and just focus on things you don't actually need to play the game?

You get roughly 50 models for about 125usd. Based on how the new golden boy kits are 50, how is that not amazing? Free figure in a white dwarf? How long since thats happened?

I swear its "dakkadakka:where the glass is always half empty ALWAYS"

Not to get into specific prices (I agree with Killcrazy, the last thing I want to see is that debate again...), but what would make a group of people happy would be:

1. Free rules, and no need to buy other books (though optional printed ones for a price is ok)
2. Armies that never get outdated from a rules perspective (ie no power creep that makes old stuff weak)
3. Production of cool new stuff, but make it totally unnecessary (new units are relatively no better than the old units)
4. Individual kit prices in the same strata of pricing as the Starter box, with price increases that underperform inflation
5. Campaigns are ok, as long as they're 100% optional.

The problem is, this isn't very profitable. Case in point, the amount of money that most independents make off of Kings of War is so small as to not even be a rounding error. There are only 2 ways to make money -- motivation for people into buy new stuff for their old game, or new games. GW obviously thinks that the former is easier than the latter, and has been very successful in it in 40k, and not successful at all in Fantasy Battle.

I only have one friend that really loves his Fantasy Battle, and to him, #2 is very important (ergo, he's stuck in 6e WHFB with his friends), and uses essentially the same army he's used for over a decade, which consists almost entirely of cavalry and infantry sized models. He hates all the big supernatural/heroic stuff. What he would like to see is basically a new rulebook & codex (he's willing to pay for it) every 4 years or so, that will work perfectly with his army.

The problem is, and he recognizes it, GW would go bankrupt with that business model, because the only way then to sell more miniatures is new players.

Expensive dice cups and measures are collector's items, nothing more. They're meant for people with more money than sense.

Just vote with your wallet, don't buy them, they wouldn't keep making and overpricing them if people weren't buying them. Obviously there's a market for overpriced dice cups (strangely enough) and if some army of people who really, really like dice cups want to keep funding GW to make more models by buying dice cups, I'm not complaining.

If it was like dishwasher safe and useable a beer glass for the beer part of beer and pretzel then i think it would of been cool.

But a resin cup hastily dry brushed with the blood of WHFB?

No thanks.

Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

 Chute82 wrote:
Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

Man I forgot how stupid high their MSRP is on their spray paint. My local stores tend to sell it much, much cheaper actually.

I heard part of the reason is that the new golds are much better chemically and have additives. I know they work really, really well, but $28? I mean.. if I was going to base an entire army like Eternals $30 would have to beat out 7 bottles worth of the bottle variant and I somehow doubt it has that much paint.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

Man I forgot how stupid high their MSRP is on their spray paint. My local stores tend to sell it much, much cheaper actually.

I heard part of the reason is that the new golds are much better chemically and have additives. I know they work really, really well, but $28? I mean.. if I was going to base an entire army like Eternals $30 would have to beat out 7 bottles worth of the bottle variant and I somehow doubt it has that much paint.

The amount of paint you would lose to overspray it hard to justify the cost of a can. But they would not make it if people were not buying it

The problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battles was that veterans didn't spend anything. Now with Age of Sigmar, nobody will spend anything! Because they'll need to eat instead!

 Chute82 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Is the $28 can of spray paint a collectors item?

Man I forgot how stupid high their MSRP is on their spray paint. My local stores tend to sell it much, much cheaper actually.

I heard part of the reason is that the new golds are much better chemically and have additives. I know they work really, really well, but $28? I mean.. if I was going to base an entire army like Eternals $30 would have to beat out 7 bottles worth of the bottle variant and I somehow doubt it has that much paint.

The amount of paint you would lose to overspray it hard to justify the cost of a can. But they would not make it if people were not buying it

To be honest, as a newbie I would've gotten into the game much easier had I just dropped $20 on a spray can and painted all of my Khorne Warriors at once in Khorne Red instead of learning the hard way that hand painting takes a lot of time. I assume the spray can is definitely convenience bait for people who wanna just low risk, quick-paint the starter kit.

The spray primers are really pricey. But they're hardly necessary, and most people who are painting mountains of minis will go airbrush anyhow.

Incidentally, a friend showed me a model primed with Corax White, and it is a REALLY nice surface. I mean, better than an airbrushed white Vallejo P/U, and way better than Skull White or P3 White primer.

I might still like Mr. Hobby's better, but Mr. Hobby's primer makes Corax seem cheap (it comes in a midget can and is as expensive as a full size from anyone else).

 Desubot wrote:
hastily dry brushed with the blood of WHFB

Best sales patter I have yet seen for these overpriced geegaws.

I would still use the Army Painter sprays, and I think even those are pretty pricey.

Army Painter in a sense is taking advantage of the user's lack of knowledge about DIY.

Army Painter dip is basically the same formulation as Minwax polish, used for decades by historical players to get tabletop standard results quickly and easily. However the magic dip technique is still a kind of folk knowledge while Army Painter gives you the confidence of buying a product that is guaranteed to produce the results.

Coloured primers are the same thing. You could just buy spray paints from DIY or graphics shops and get the same results, but the primer spray promises you it will work.

Montana Gold spray chrome paints are £4.99 a can, if someone wants to avoid the official GW gold spray.

frankelee wrote:
The problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battles was that veterans didn't spend anything.

I don't even think that's true. I tend to make 3-4 new armies or equivalents per year for what ever game system I am interested in at the moment.

So far this year I have completed an Epic Marine army, 1500 points of UCM for Dropzone, a 6 point warband of Islemen for Saga, a Nuln Mordheim warband and the Haqq Islam starter set for Infinity. GW has seen no cash whatsoever from this despite the fact that I have painted 5000 points of GW miniatures that I was forced to get from Ebay. I am currently painting a Goblin army for KoW (using GW miniatures) and I am planning a Minervan Super heavy Regiment for Epic (featuring 15 Baneblade hulls) that I will either be buying from ebay or I will be using models that I already possess.

I am definitely a wargaming veteran and I spend quite a lot of money on toy soldiers yet GW doesn't see a single penny. Granted I get quite a lot of stuff from Ebay or other manufacturers but if GW produced what I want, at a reasonable price, then I would buy from them.

I think you are an outlier in terms of the amount of money you spend but the point you make is valid, people are spending money on stuff, just not enough on WHFB to keep it viable for GW.

The reasons for that, and the likely amount of money in play, has been debated widely elsewhere.

GW obviously want to make money out of AOS and they can't do that from the rules which are free, so they have to make it up by selling premium items to super fans.

That actually is a clever strategy, since the more people playing the game the better. Cheapskates like me will download the rules for free, and make armies from non-GW models, but our presence in the player base improves the spread of the system anyway.

I'm pretty sure you can survive without em

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think you are an outlier in terms of the amount of money you spend but the point you make is valid, people are spending money on stuff, just not enough on WHFB to keep it viable for GW.

I have no interest in WHFB anymore, thats why I haven't bought anything for that system in 7 or 8 years. Yet as soon as AoS comes and with the resultant surge of popularity of KoW I am building up 2000 points of Goblins. I obviously have an interest in this particular area of gaming and I have the means to acquire armies yet I haven't been doing so since about half way through 7th ed and the armies I did have are now either in storage or they have gone on Ebay. If GW had actually thought about what was wrong with WHFB, how it could be fixed in a reasonable manner and then produced a high quality game then I would in all probability be making 9th ed armies now rather than lamenting the death of the Old World.

WHFB has been viable for decades, GW really need to ask themselves why they feel it is no longer viable and how it has become non viable; perhaps if they did that they wouldn't be blindly heading towards financial disaster.

There seems to be a trend in this thread now:

A) Starter box is great deal
- Think least 90% of us agree on this.

B) The models look cool, and the price per model isnt outside the "norm" for a skirmish game.

- My take on this is while the PPM might be "reasonable" GW isn't the king of a larger-base, lower model count skirmish game, and when your trying to pull WMH players, attract new players, and maybe even keep some WHFB players then you can't just be the "norm" you have to either have exceptional value or a product people want more. So far all 3 of my FLGS seem to be way overstocked and very underwhelmed at the turnout for AoS. Meanwhile WMH is growing like wildfire and 40k is as strong as ever. We have more 8th edition WHFB players still than people who have bought the AoS starter. And both upcoming releases have no real excitement factor for me either. The new terrain is cool but horribly overpriced. $58 for ONE gate? It literally will cost more than your army to field your side of the board's terrain lol. The first "book" already at $75, even from someone who bought most of the end times books, is just too much for the first "campaign" which brings me to point C

C) The first wave stuff is all (regardless of its PPM just its flat price) very pricey and is either optional or just repackage of the AoS box with options.

-This is where my problem comes in. GW didn't hit us with a Week 2 launch of an exciting new unit to add to our AoS box at a reasonable cost. Instead we get liberators (the core and most vanilla in excitement of their army) with some weapon options at a price that really sets a barrier at expanding my force. This might not have been so bad, had there been other exciting items to spur people to further their collections, but the first book already is hitting me with an ET vibe with its huge pricetag....so I can read some lore and play some scenarios with models I have to drop another $200 just to have now.

D) But I don't need the book, the sprays, the dice-shaker, etc so just don't buy them.

-My thoughts exactly, but the problem is eventually I get gouged regardless of whether I buy them or not. Because I either am left with this 4 page of rules and a desire to expand on them, or I am forced to buy the overprice books. Then you have the factored overhead into the cost of everything I do want to buy because of the loss from things barely anyone is willing to buy. This is coupled with the inevitable war-scroll power creep as new units come out .





So that is my summarized rant. I mean I WANT AoS to do well because I enjoy both 40k and WHFB, and I will be the first to admit their is plenty wrong on the 40k side but the pros outweigh the cons for me. My problem with AoS is GW doesn't seem interested in competing with WHM or KoW. They want to spur interest with all this hype, coverage, talks, and a snazzy starter. But one week later we are already seeing the writing on the wall at the repetitive cash grab these books, limited run items/accessories, and models are going to be. I mean $50 for what amounts to your core models combined with some of the ET pricing and recent 40k pricehikes for LoW/GC makes me shudder to think what a center piece model in AoS is going to cost. And these costs are what is going to prevent people from moving beyond treating AoS as a "board game" and collecting/expanding multiple armies to use in a skirmish/battle game instead.

@mch21689 - I don't think that GW wants to compete with KoW. In fact, the complete opposite: they're getting out of the regimented fantasy wargame business. They see it as a dead end in terms of revenue (rightly or wrongly).

Unlike you, I don't feel that GW needs to undercut WMH to attract players or hobbyists.

I think that at there are a significant population of hobbyists who believe that GW models are superior, and that GW kits are superior, so even at similar prices ($10 ppm), they would rather have GW models. Of course, the same can be said for WMH -- but there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think that $300 - $400 for a completely custom army is unreasonable. Prior to AoS, tons of people were pegging this as the ideal price that an army should cost anyways, and if you go to see the popular WMH lists, that's the median price range, I think.

I don't think that AoS will ever make the kind of money 40k makes. 40k is singularly the only miniature wargame where there is a cadre of players and collectors who keep adding insane numbers of models to their armies, even when those armies are already an insane number of models.

In what other game system are there players who own 25,000+ points equivalency (just call that 1,000+ models) and keep adding to the army? I'm not making that up; a lot of the youtubes of people who show "how to paint a crimson hunter" or whatever show 9 foot wide display cases packed solid with models, and the guys say, "even though I have 20,000 points worth of Eldar, I STILL had to buy more models to try this out". I mean, I've never even heard of this in another game.

You also have guys like me, who have several armies, and every decade or so, decide that they want to do a complete revamp (because there's better models, etc.). In the DCM forum, there's a fella who spent something like $6k in the last 4 months, and buys every limited, standard, and electronic codex that drops. I won't go that far, but I'll spend "thousands" on an army to get it to where I'm happy with it (before I move on to another), and there is no other game system / world that I can imagine such a thing (or seen it, or even heard of it, of any other player).

 Talys wrote:
@mch21689 - I don't think that GW wants to compete with KoW. In fact, the complete opposite: they're getting out of the regimented fantasy wargame business. They see it as a dead end in terms of revenue (rightly or wrongly).

Unlike you, I don't feel that GW needs to undercut WMH to attract players or hobbyists.

I think that at there are a significant population of hobbyists who believe that GW models are superior, and that GW kits are superior, so even at similar prices ($10 ppm), they would rather have GW models. Of course, the same can be said for WMH -- but there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think that $300 - $400 for a completely custom army is unreasonable. Prior to AoS, tons of people were pegging this as the ideal price that an army should cost anyways, and if you go to see the popular WMH lists, that's the median price range, I think.

I don't think that AoS will ever make the kind of money 40k makes. 40k is singularly the only miniature wargame where there is a cadre of players and collectors who keep adding insane numbers of models to their armies, even when those armies are already an insane number of models.

In what other game system are there players who own 25,000+ points equivalency (just call that 1,000+ models) and keep adding to the army? I'm not making that up; a lot of the youtubes of people who show "how to paint a crimson hunter" or whatever show 9 foot wide display cases packed solid with models, and the guys say, "even though I have 20,000 points worth of Eldar, I STILL had to buy more models to try this out". I mean, I've never even heard of this in another game.

You also have guys like me, who have several armies, and every decade or so, decide that they want to do a complete revamp (because there's better models, etc.). In the DCM forum, there's a fella who spent something like $6k in the last 4 months, and buys every limited, standard, and electronic codex that drops. I won't go that far, but I'll spend "thousands" on an army to get it to where I'm happy with it (before I move on to another), and there is no other game system / world that I can imagine such a thing (or seen it, or even heard of it, of any other player).

And I agree with some of what you are saying, I mean I have probably 15,000 of CSM/Demons, and another 3-5000 each of SM, AM/IG, GK, and Eldar. I also have about 10,000 WoC and 4000 OK. Not to mention the armies I have bought/sold/traded over the years. But even for the people that collect and own outside of the regular game amounts, GWs recent price hikes and practices have begun to erode my sense of value and desire for something I know I can't place on the table everytime I go to play. I bought the ET books for the lore, even with the ridiculous prices, but I find myself not having the desire to repeat with AoS, mainly because I don't see AoS hanging around the what 30+ years fantasy did?

I know GW isn't gunning for KoW, but WMH definitely. The problem being PP is just far more in touch with their consumer base than GW is imo. I dont even play WHM that much, yet I scooped up a khador army box deal because as a starter box the value was incredible. Then I paid 34.99 to add a unit of 10 models and I found myself sitting at a fun to play 35+ point list and the full rulebook. Now sure to expand to 50 pts and swap casters or change jacks out, I might shell out $200-300 in the end, but guess what I didn't have to pay...$75 just to make 6 army lists. The cool AoS models will only carry sales so far before people realize the rules need work, the scenario books are codex fleecing on steroids, AND the books push you toward buying the latest model kits. And even if 5 models for $50 isn't that far fetched...the single model infantry lord clam pack is $33!? Single terrain kits with less than 10 pieces are more expensive than most of the dedicated transports in 40k. I guess I am just sad because I want to give GW money to enjoy a skirmish game set in a warhammer esque lore, but that game isn't out yet. What we have is another execution force or space hulk combined with ridiculously overpriced expansions and collectibles.

mch21689 wrote:
And I agree with some of what you are saying, I mean I have probably 15,000 of CSM/Demons, and another 3-5000 each of SM, AM/IG, GK, and Eldar. I also have about 10,000 WoC and 4000 OK. Not to mention the armies I have bought/sold/traded over the years. But even for the people that collect and own outside of the regular game amounts, GWs recent price hikes and practices have begun to erode my sense of value and desire for something I know I can't place on the table everytime I go to play. I bought the ET books for the lore, even with the ridiculous prices, but I find myself not having the desire to repeat with AoS, mainly because I don't see AoS hanging around the what 30+ years fantasy did?

I know GW isn't gunning for KoW, but WMH definitely. The problem being PP is just far more in touch with their consumer base than GW is imo. I dont even play WHM that much, yet I scooped up a khador army box deal because as a starter box the value was incredible. Then I paid 34.99 to add a unit of 10 models and I found myself sitting at a fun to play 35+ point list and the full rulebook. Now sure to expand to 50 pts and swap casters or change jacks out, I might shell out $200-300 in the end, but guess what I didn't have to pay...$75 just to make 6 army lists. The cool AoS models will only carry sales so far before people realize the rules need work, the scenario books are codex fleecing on steroids, AND the books push you toward buying the latest model kits. And even if 5 models for $50 isn't that far fetched...the single model infantry lord clam pack is $33!? Single terrain kits with less than 10 pieces are more expensive than most of the dedicated transports in 40k. I guess I am just sad because I want to give GW money to enjoy a skirmish game set in a warhammer esque lore, but that game isn't out yet. What we have is another execution force or space hulk combined with ridiculously overpriced expansions and collectibles.

Right, GW is gunning for some of the WMH crowd, though I think the less "math crunching competitive" crowd, which PP cares about (and supports) a lot, and more then "play for fun, love the models" players.

have you seen some of the single-model PPs? Well, really, any of the single-model releases. Kromac is 50mm and $35 and Anston Durst, the last character model I bought, is 40mm and $25, A Nephalim isn't even a character, and I think around $20 each. I'm actually not saying that this expensive: I'm saying that this is the market price in 2015 for premium game pieces. It's not 1985 anymore, and gone are the days of $8 character models and $10 blisters of 5.

The boxes of 3, 5, and 10 are pretty close to GW prices. Personally, I think PP prices its products to be close to GW PPMs. Both are guilty of charging a lot for solos/warcasters/heroes, but I'm actually okay with that: I'm only going to have 1 warcaster, whereas PP can sell me 10 units, it only makes sense that PP charge more for the warcaster. I mean, why would I ever buy 5 Anston Durst or 5 Bradigus, right?

From a "technical design, amazing pose" perspective, the GW models offer a lot more to me, because they come in like, 15+ pieces, which allow very ususual, twisting designs like wraparound cloaks and flowing ribbons, or piece-behind-piece layouts that would be impossible in 2-part metal molds, even in multipart (PP's multipart metal implementation is very simplistic anyhow). But all that's aesthetic, and I get it that some people could care less. They just want game pieces that look sort of nice, and from that perspective a 3-piece model is superior than a 15-piece model, because it takes less time to put together, and If you're only going to spend 2 hours painting him, what does it matter anyhow?