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Hi all,

I have a question regarding apothecaries. Once a veteran from a command team has been upgraded to an apothecary, can he be given melee and/or ranged weapons and/or storm shields along with the other veterans from said command team?

Cheers,
Ed

 edbradders wrote:
Hi all,

I have a question regarding apothecaries. Once a veteran from a command team has been upgraded to an apothecary, can he be given melee and/or ranged weapons and/or storm shields along with the other veterans from said command team?

Cheers,
Ed

I'd say No since he is no longer a Veteran model and Apothecaries are not listed as "can take items from these lists" - unlike e.g. Tactical Squad Veteran Sergeants, those are still listed as "Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may choose..."

But that depends entirely on whether or not you're allowed to go back up in the "options list" - theoretically one could argue that the Veteran takes the Stormshield, then upgrades to Apothecary - and since it doesn't say "replace previous weapons" you'd retain the Stormshield (or any other previously choosen option). But that doesn't "feel right" - although I can't provide a rule that prevents you from doing that.

I'd say yes, since you replace the bolt pistol or chainsword with the Narthecium

This is one of the eternal cans of worms that Dakka never finds consensus on. There's a bunch of threads where the question is ruminated, but it always ends up inconclusive.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'd say yes, since you replace the bolt pistol or chainsword with the Narthecium

Please provide a quote on that, the profile doesn't say that nor does the Narthecium itself. The Narthecium even lacks a weapon profile, it simply provides the FNP special rule.

Look in the SM codex. It says 1 veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary and trade his bolter or bolt pistol/chainsword for a Narthecium. I have also seen Apothecaries given plasma pistols etc before.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Look in the SM codex. It says 1 veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary and trade his bolter or bolt pistol/chainsword for a Narthecium. I have also seen Apothecaries given plasma pistols etc before.

I did , which is why I asked you to provide a quote.

7th Edition C:SM wrote:One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium

Even IF you'd trade in all the weapons for a Narthecium, you would be unable to choose ANY weapon off e.g. the Ranged Weapons list - since it says "A model may replace his boltgun, bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the
following:" - which, according to YOU, the Apothecary just lost. And the Narthecium is NOT a weapon, not even a Melee one - it would require a weapon profile to count as one. It is merely "special issue wargear".

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I have also seen Apothecaries given plasma pistols etc before.

In what? Was it an example of army created with the current rules and published by games-workshop?

To add fuel to the fire, the Red Scorpions tactical squad apothecaries are specifically allowed to keep their sergeant wargear options.

Are they apothecaries with Sgt's duties? Or Sergeants with narthecium?

I think it's probably best to discuss it with my gaming group and see how they want to play it.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I have also seen Apothecaries given plasma pistols etc before.

In what? Was it an example of army created with the current rules and published by games-workshop?

Given the previous Space Wolf codex had a picture of a wolf scout with a storm bolter and wolf scouts had no options to be armed with a storm bolter i would suggest that pictures do not reflect the rules.

 edbradders wrote:
I think it's probably best to discuss it with my gaming group and see how they want to play it.

Yeah, it definitely doesn't say that you lose either bolt pistol or chainsword with the upgrade. Technically you could do it, though I would be wary about putting too many points into a one wound model.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 edbradders wrote:
I think it's probably best to discuss it with my gaming group and see how they want to play it.

Yeah, it definitely doesn't say that you lose either bolt pistol or chainsword with the upgrade. Technically you could do it, though I would be wary about putting too many points into a one wound model.

The problem arises from no longer being a Veteran once the model is upgraded to an Apothecary.

As others have pointed out, this is a bit of a can of worms that many consider can go either way. Certainly we have precedent in Codex: Space Marines itself that sequential upgrades are possible, correct and necessary, although this instance is a little different as the model in question takes on a different profile (becomes an Apothecary, distinct from a Veteran) and is no longer a Veteran, arguably violating the options allowance after the fact.

Breton wrote:
Are they apothecaries with Sgt's duties? Or Sergeants with narthecium?

From the Chapter Tactics update on the Forgeworld website:

"Purity Above All: Any Tactical squad Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant with Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions) may be made a member of the Chapter’s Apothecarion and upgraded to carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost (see page 125 of Codex: Space Marines). This does not otherwise alter their wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be appropriately represented on the model."

So still a Space Marine Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant but given a Narthecium, so rather different from the Command Squad.

If you are playing ITC, at least, their FAQ lets you take upgrades after switching to an Apothecary.

 Ghaz wrote:
The problem arises from no longer being a Veteran once the model is upgraded to an Apothecary.

That is true. So yeah, he still has his bp&ccw. No, he can't upgrade. Seems settled.

No, it's not settled. Because while the model is still a Veteran, it can be upgraded with other weapons. So give it a plasma pistol for instance, THEN upgrade the Plasma Pistol veteran to an Apothecary who takes a Narthecium.

It's not a 'One model not upgraded with another option may be upgraded to an Apothecary'. Look at the Astra Militarum Company Command Squad. They use a lot of 'one other Veteran may be upgraded with' to show that the models can't stack upgrades, but that's not in the Space Marine one.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
No, it's not settled. Because while the model is still a Veteran, it can be upgraded with other weapons. So give it a plasma pistol for instance, THEN upgrade the Plasma Pistol veteran to an Apothecary who takes a Narthecium.

It's not a 'One model not upgraded with another option may be upgraded to an Apothecary'. Look at the Astra Militarum Company Command Squad. They use a lot of 'one other Veteran may be upgraded with' to show that the models can't stack upgrades, but that's not in the Space Marine one.

There is no established order of operations when it comes to selecting upgrades for a unit.

However, the only way that is allowed to happen is if you can go back and forth across upgrades with impunity.

Most people prefer to keep the upgrades fit for the final model. This would mean that the Apothecary is not authorized to carry anything but his base Wargear, narthecium, and a bike.

If you go in the order it is presented, than the only thing that may qualify is the Standard, as that is the first option. The rest of the weapon options are either for the Champion (different model) or at the end of the list, and only accessible to Veteran models, of which the Apothecary model is no longer titled as.

That is wrong. The model is NOT a "Veteran" as such, he is an Apothecary. The rules separate "Veterans" and "Apothecaries". Its black and white, Veteran or Apothecary.

A "Veteran" can be upgraded.

There is no rule to say an "Apothecary" can be upgraded. He comes with an unchangeable bolter and chainsword (and his narthecium).

An Apothecary is basically a medic who's main job is to keep people alive not run around with a Baneblade Cannon strapped to his narthecium.

Apply a little common sense when reading rules, and if you are still unsure, apply what you think is intended not what you think you can misinterpret to benefit you and give you an advantage.

In the interest of sportsmanship, Edbradders, I would suggest you use the Apothecary like MOST people play him, like Battlescribe has him and like the rules were intended, and actually like an Apothecary would be.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
That is wrong. The model is NOT a "Veteran" as such, he is an Apothecary. The rules separate "Veterans" and "Apothecaries". Its black and white, Veteran or Apothecary.

A "Veteran" can be upgraded.

There is no rule to say an "Apothecary" can be upgraded. He comes with an unchangeable bolter and chainsword (and his narthecium).

An Apothecary is basically a medic who's main job is to keep people alive not run around with a Baneblade Cannon strapped to his narthecium.

Apply a little common sense when reading rules, and if you are still unsure, apply what you think is intended not what you think you can misinterpret to benefit you and give you an advantage.

In the interest of sportsmanship, Edbradders, I would suggest you use the Apothecary like MOST people play him, like Battlescribe has him and like the rules were intended, and actually like an Apothecary would be.

There is no need to be that condescending in a case where the thing that makes or breaks your rule interpretation is whether or not you're forced to go through the options from top to bottom without being allowed to go back up. The Apothecary option does not "come with a bolter and chainsword" - The VETERAN the apothecary was before he upgraded to Apothecary comes with Bolt pistol, Chainsword and Frag&Krak grenades.

I don't know of a rule that says "you HAVE to go from top to bottom when selecting options", even though I would AGREE with you. But theoretically "Be a veteran. Choose a Power Sword and Grav Gun to replace your Bolt pistol and Chain Sword and add a Stormshield. Choose to become an Apothecary and receive a narthecium. Now you have a Grav Gunb, a Power Sword and a Stormshield while also wielding a narthecium" might be possible WITHOUT breaking the rules or bending them.

I mean come on - a medic has to defend himself or be useful when noone is injured, why not give him an Assault Cannon. < see, bringing realism into a rules discussion sucks, so stop it.

HIWPI would be "no, you can't" because I think the ORDER of how the options are presented on each dataslate was intentional - for example Centurions let you swap out your weapons first, THEN offer to upgrade the Sergeant to a Vet Sergeant and then follow up by offering Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants an omniscope -> No conflicts possible. Since the Command Squad options are sorted differently I'd say the intention was to have the Company Champion limited to Power Weapon plus Combat shield (so no stormshield) and the Apothecary to Bolt pistol and chainsword.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I have also seen Apothecaries given plasma pistols etc before.

In what? Was it an example of army created with the current rules and published by games-workshop?

Codex Dark Angels 6th Ed and 7th ed.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I have also seen Apothecaries given plasma pistols etc before.

In what? Was it an example of army created with the current rules and published by games-workshop?

Codex Dark Angels 6th Ed and 7th ed.

Please provide a quote / page supporting your claim - when I take a look at either codex all I can find is this:

6th Edition Dark Angels:
Greenwing Command Squad: replacing their bolt pistol with a narthecium.
Ravenwing Command Squad: replacing their bolt pistol with a narthecium.
Deathwing Command Squad: terminators.

7th Edition Dark Angels:
Greenwing Command Squad is the same as the one from the vanilla codex.
Ravenwing Command Squad: from what I can tell you're allowed to replace the plasma talon for a grenade launcher and then upgrade to an Apothecary, retaining said launcher. But no plasma pistols anywhere.
Deathwing Command Squad: terminators.

We've had this exact same argument before, nearly word for word in previous threads.

Ravenwing Command Squad: from what I can tell you're allowed to replace the plasma talon for a grenade launcher and then upgrade to an Apothecary, retaining said launcher. But no plasma pistols anywhere.

Doesn't that say Black Knight may? Ergo the same logic says an Apothecary can't upgrade his bike?

If an apothecary can't take anything other than a bolt pistol or a chainsword, then how come you can equip 3 flamers and 2 combi flamers to the whole squad in the force requisition bit? (on iPad)

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If an apothecary can't take anything other than a bolt pistol or a chainsword, then how come you can equip 3 flamers and 2 combi flamers to the whole squad in the force requisition bit? (on iPad)

Because the 'force requisition bit' isn't an army builder, its a collection manager.

 Ghaz wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If an apothecary can't take anything other than a bolt pistol or a chainsword, then how come you can equip 3 flamers and 2 combi flamers to the whole squad in the force requisition bit? (on iPad)

Because the 'force requisition bit' isn't an army builder, its a collection manager.

Amusing, but it's still an army builder you muppet.

And it's built by GW. Not that GW never makes a mistake.

Breton wrote:
And it's built by GW. Not that GW never makes a mistake.

I knew someone in here would say that lol.