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I figured it would be some time since this supplement was discussed and I was curious how it holds up or what new things are possible. Or if you learned to embrace some of the more exotic relics like the crucible of lies.

Among the new things that come to mind is a Nurgle biker lord with spineshiver and possibly the skull of ker'ngar with a retinue of nurgle bikers. Backed by your vehicle of choice with the "Vessel of dhornugh the Reborn" legacy of ruin. This gives you toughness 6 bikers, all with rending in melee. The Lord is T6 I6 with +D6 Ap3 attacks all with rending, making him quite the threat despite being only S4 and relatively cheap too. (without the skull anyway)

Or a nurgle lord/sorc with palanquin and the skull of ker'ngar in a dreadclaw with whatever might work but crimson slaughter can do the same even better.They don't get the last memory however, which could do a lot of damage if your coming down in the middle of his army with a claw. And this version is potentially better in melee depending on what you give him in addition.

I've been fairly successful with the last memory of yuranthos, and now that MSU is so big with all the formation spam, it only becomes better. I've been using it on a nurgle sorc on a biker with a retinue of nurgle bikers to get into a position where I can reach the most units without dieing.

They also seem to get a lot of flak for having to take veterans of the long war, but honestly? That 1 leadership has saved me from failing a test on more than one occasion. Hatred is just icing on the cake.

I'm also curious what people think about the Bringers of despair. Unfortunately I never play enough points to try them. Against non marine armies they are ok, but kinda meh. But when going up against marines, which are still quite popular, and equipped with combi plasmas, they become pretty scary. Thats a 2+ rerollable to hit roll and 2+ to wound. And in melee they're not unlikely to hit on 3+ that is also rerollable due to hatred. And you can still reroll the wound for those sporting power/chain fists.
Seems especially nasty on slaanesh termies. And with the icon they'd also get FNP against whatever is still standing. Or even khorne if you take the "auloth the primordial iterator" legacy of ruin. In that case they even get fear. This is assuming you have abaddon roll with them, who is scary enough all on his own.

I'm wondering if those banner type icons might work with the new chaos knights or fire raptors to see more foot slogging . This isn't particularly a Black Legion thing since you don't need the supplement, but large units kinda are. A large unit of space marines with icon of wrath would be able to put out some decent dakka with feel no pain and fear and still being decent in combat due to the mark. I find it's fairly easy to hide a heavy weapon in there and move the rest of the squad while the heavy weapon stands till. I dunno how viable it would be, but it would certainly fit the legion theme. In addition the knight/raptor would get pinning on all their weapons.

We never get to play cities of death or planet strike, so I have no idea if the stratagems are any good there. I never hear or see people playing either of those.

I always liked the Black Legion supplement. You're right, with the MSU becoming more prevalent that Last Memory (especially on a flying Daemon Prince) could be really effective, just make sure it's got a Spell Familiar

The Nurgle Biker w the Spineshiver is nasty good against most any non-vehicles besides 2+ armor of course. I hadn't considered some of those Legacies of Ruin though, with the Rending, let's say on a Spartan (also with that 12" dirge caster), that would be almost as awesome as Ravenwing Knights, just different. Maybe ally in a Balestar Biker psyker to try and get Forewarning too so they can get a 4++ for the unit.

I agree that while VOLTW is extra points, it certainly has made a difference for my Obliterators when I use them. And with all the Space Marines around and a melee focused army it comes in handy. And if you take that Spartan or Fire Raptor with the Legacies, might as well stuff the Bringers of Despair in there. I'd go combi-meltas w chainfists mostly. Might as well take out Knights along with anything else!

I'm not sure a spartan would work though. It would have to keep driving 12 to keep up with the bikers so you would be forced to shoot snapshots.

The fire raptor would probably be a better choice or one of the new chaos knights. Or a storm eagle with a dark apostle, who could jump out at the last minute and join the bikers lol. For that sweet reroll and gribbly protection.

You might not even have to change flight modes, since you only need to be close enough once they assault.

Divination would be amazing, but that's true for pretty much any unit lol. I'm considering pure Black Legion here. But you're right, 4++, to hit reroll and the other powers aren't shabby either.

I'm currently running my Emperors Children warband/company using the Black Legion supplement and to be honest it's great I've not experimented with the artefacts yet but that skull is tempting lol

Well I sure wasn't expecting to hear that lol. Though now that I think about it, it kinda does make sense. Nice

It's just the fact people freak out when they see my dakka chosen in a rhino (6 man squad due to being the dark princes sacred number) and don't believe when I tell them it's a troop choice

Chosen are bad ass. I've had some good runs with chosen in a dreadclaw. An objective secured flyer is really good. Unloading a squad of geared up chosen out of said vehicle is even better.

I've used them with flamers and the claw in a dedicated objective grabbing role. 4-5 flamers are hella scary and chosen being chosen, they can mob up anything that is still standing after that. And the claw being equipped with a lite heavy flamer it can even hurt stuff as it flies off to get an objective of its own while the chosen are busy.

1. Chosen as troops is at least an option. However, they're still 20 point MEQ. Without upgrades. Blech. Plus the Crimson Slaughter can give a single squad of them PE for 10 points. That's worth it over the OS, which barely comes up anyway.
2. That brings me to the fact you HAVE to pay for VotLW. The best units you have are either Fearless or can't buy it, so the mandatory purchasing for stuff like Plague Marines or Noise Marines is flatout terrible.
3. The Warlord traits flatout suck as a whole. Only the IWND and the ID one are usable. Stubborn seems nice until you look at #2.
4. Some of the artifacts are cool though. The Skull ensures EW, and the Spineshiver gives a whopping I7 on a Slaanesh Lord. Even at AP3, it's still good. Yuranthos is kinda lame, Hand of Darkness is kinda expensive, and Eye Of Night is WAY too much. The Crucible sucks.

Overall, the Crimson Slaughter contributes more for the army as a supplement besides a couple of artifacts in this one.

I guess I'm a little biased since I quite enjoy the black legion fluff and it's the closest thing to a legion dex we get.

1. I play Maelstrom missions almost exclusively, so having OS is pretty nice to have. More so now that all the formations mean that there's a good chance my opponent won't have it. And chosen have worked out pretty well for me so far. They're just so damn flexible.

2. VotlLW doesn't just give +1 LD though. With the amount of marines running around there's a good chance to get hatred for 2 points or even 1 in the case of plague marines or noise marines. Of course your mileage may vary on that depending on your opponents.
And then there is the fluff factor. I often take it even in the vanilla dex just because I like actually being veterans in the rules. That and having 10 leadership really does help.

3. My Lord has been turned into a spawn or daemon prince too often to not appreciate eye of the Gods. And I don't see anything wrong with a free combi flamer. Aoe preferred enemy is great especially since it means you have hatred too. But again ymmw on that one. I think they're appropriately personal from a fluff perspective.

4. The Crucible is one way to get a rerollable 2++ without being a daemon though. On a character that can hide in a squad. I'm sure somebody has found a use for it by now?
Hand of darkness is too expensive imho to be really viable , but it sure feels good to falcon punch stuff
Eye of night I totally agree with. That should have been barrage and assault at a bare minimum for that cost.

I can't argue with crimson slaughter being generally more useful either. Just the fact that they get to use Divination is enough to put them ahead. Even the dark apostle relic can be pretty evil in an assault heavy list.

And yet, I feel much stronger toward ye old dogs of war over some new kids on the block.

Roknar wrote:
I guess I'm a little biased since I quite enjoy the black legion fluff and it's the closest thing to a legion dex we get.

1. I play Maelstrom missions almost exclusively, so having OS is pretty nice to have. More so now that all the formations mean that there's a good chance my opponent won't have it. And chosen have worked out pretty well for me so far. They're just so damn flexible.

2. VotlLW doesn't just give +1 LD though. With the amount of marines running around there's a good chance to get hatred for 2 points or even 1 in the case of plague marines or noise marines. Of course your mileage may vary on that depending on your opponents.
And then there is the fluff factor. I often take it even in the vanilla dex just because I like actually being veterans in the rules. That and having 10 leadership really does help.

3. My Lord has been turned into a spawn or daemon prince too often to not appreciate eye of the Gods. And I don't see anything wrong with a free combi flamer. Aoe preferred enemy is great especially since it means you have hatred too. But again ymmw on that one. I think they're appropriately personal from a fluff perspective.

4. The Crucible is one way to get a rerollable 2++ without being a daemon though. On a character that can hide in a squad. I'm sure somebody has found a use for it by now?
Hand of darkness is too expensive imho to be really viable , but it sure feels good to falcon punch stuff
Eye of night I totally agree with. That should have been barrage and assault at a bare minimum for that cost.

I can't argue with crimson slaughter being generally more useful either. Just the fact that they get to use Divination is enough to put them ahead. Even the dark apostle relic can be pretty evil in an assault heavy list.

And yet, I feel much stronger toward ye old dogs of war over some new kids on the block.

1. That only helps if the Chosen are on the objective and their fragile Rhinos didn't get popped. No amount of Maelstrom missions will make 20 point MEQ's excellent for holding an objective.
2. How often are you actually charging though? With all those Rapid Fire and Salvo weapons, you're not going to. It also doesn't matter against non Marine armies.
3. Turning into a Prince is 1/36, and a Spawn 2/36. That's 3/36, or an 8% chance of something you didn't want to happen. Not worth losing something more helpful. The flamer is one use and therefore limits use, and PE only works against Space Marines. Once again not worth the fact you actually run into other armies. In the same way, I'd want Pedro Kantor to be cheaper to lose PE Orks even though I still run into them.
4. That means a MoT Lord, which is the weakest build outside a Slaaneshi Lord. MoT Sorcerer means you have to roll on the table for Tzeentch.

VoTLW isn't actually bad it's a fluffy rule to distinguish legionaires I guess but I'm fine with that. Yes chosen are expensive but my chosen squad for example generally get more than one turn of shooting. They are actually a great support unit in a noise marine list.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Roknar wrote:
I guess I'm a little biased since I quite enjoy the black legion fluff and it's the closest thing to a legion dex we get.

1. I play Maelstrom missions almost exclusively, so having OS is pretty nice to have. More so now that all the formations mean that there's a good chance my opponent won't have it. And chosen have worked out pretty well for me so far. They're just so damn flexible.

2. VotlLW doesn't just give +1 LD though. With the amount of marines running around there's a good chance to get hatred for 2 points or even 1 in the case of plague marines or noise marines. Of course your mileage may vary on that depending on your opponents.
And then there is the fluff factor. I often take it even in the vanilla dex just because I like actually being veterans in the rules. That and having 10 leadership really does help.

3. My Lord has been turned into a spawn or daemon prince too often to not appreciate eye of the Gods. And I don't see anything wrong with a free combi flamer. Aoe preferred enemy is great especially since it means you have hatred too. But again ymmw on that one. I think they're appropriately personal from a fluff perspective.

4. The Crucible is one way to get a rerollable 2++ without being a daemon though. On a character that can hide in a squad. I'm sure somebody has found a use for it by now?
Hand of darkness is too expensive imho to be really viable , but it sure feels good to falcon punch stuff
Eye of night I totally agree with. That should have been barrage and assault at a bare minimum for that cost.

I can't argue with crimson slaughter being generally more useful either. Just the fact that they get to use Divination is enough to put them ahead. Even the dark apostle relic can be pretty evil in an assault heavy list.

And yet, I feel much stronger toward ye old dogs of war over some new kids on the block.

1. That only helps if the Chosen are on the objective and their fragile Rhinos didn't get popped. No amount of Maelstrom missions will make 20 point MEQ's excellent for holding an objective.
2. How often are you actually charging though? With all those Rapid Fire and Salvo weapons, you're not going to. It also doesn't matter against non Marine armies.
3. Turning into a Prince is 1/36, and a Spawn 2/36. That's 3/36, or an 8% chance of something you didn't want to happen. Not worth losing something more helpful. The flamer is one use and therefore limits use, and PE only works against Space Marines. Once again not worth the fact you actually run into other armies. In the same way, I'd want Pedro Kantor to be cheaper to lose PE Orks even though I still run into them.
4. That means a MoT Lord, which is the weakest build outside a Slaaneshi Lord. MoT Sorcerer means you have to roll on the table for Tzeentch.

You are being unnecessarily combative. The Op had perfectly fine responses, and it is quite clear that he likes the army for fluff reasons and is merely pointing out that the rules still have benefits, i.e. glass half full. Don't feel like just because you have an opinion it is worth sharing when it is off topic. You are being negative just for the sake of it, and it is quite obvious. #2 - for example - the OP already responded and pointed out that marines are exceedingly common, so more often than not it is useful to have hatred against them. 100% valid response on his part. Also, hatred is good even if you aren't planning on charging because guess what, things don't always go according to plan. Improvising and taking a chance often win a game.

Back to the original post, I do think having chosen are particularly useful for Maestrom missions. Having the flexibility to charge and still do some damage in order to clear an objective, etc. can certainly be useful. Do you tend to keep them cheap or load up on the equipment?

When I have a unit of chosen on objective hunting duty I tend to keep em cheap. 4 flamers will deal a lot of damage to a large variety of units that you might find at an objective. They can still follow up with 4 attacks on the charge if need be. I might give the champ a power weapon just in case. But I like to use a dreadclaw for this role which drives up the price again so yea. I find its worth it though. It's much more mobile than a rhino and also tougher.

In general I tend not to give them marks though. Unless they're acting as an escort. Between the the special weapons and attacks I'm not really missing them too much. It jsut means I have to be a bit more carfeul.
If I put them in a rhino in a supportive role, they usually don't draw too much fire either. My opponent is more likely to engage sicarans, maulerfiends, blood slaughterers and the like.
They can be really dangerous if decked out, but I rarely use them like that. I find they work best as support or hunting objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. That only helps if the Chosen are on the objective and their fragile Rhinos didn't get popped. No amount of Maelstrom missions will make 20 point MEQ's excellent for holding an objective.
2. How often are you actually charging though? With all those Rapid Fire and Salvo weapons, you're not going to. It also doesn't matter against non Marine armies.
3. Turning into a Prince is 1/36, and a Spawn 2/36. That's 3/36, or an 8% chance of something you didn't want to happen. Not worth losing something more helpful. The flamer is one use and therefore limits use, and PE only works against Space Marines. Once again not worth the fact you actually run into other armies. In the same way, I'd want Pedro Kantor to be cheaper to lose PE Orks even though I still run into them.
4. That means a MoT Lord, which is the weakest build outside a Slaaneshi Lord. MoT Sorcerer means you have to roll on the table for Tzeentch.

The Marine part, like I said varies. If your not facing them, then yes your at disadvantage since your paying quite a bit for being good vs marines. I don't like those kinds of rules either. I like the fluff to them, but I think they don't work well in games unless you're playing a campaign.

Chosen are really versatile. They can get up 6 special weapons and come stock with 4 attacks on the charge with a 3+ save and LD 10. There aren't that many OS units that can keep up with that. If your playing Maelstrom your going to want to get onto an objective sooner or later.
CSM have the option to take dreadclaws if you don't like rhinos, but as my group plays with lots of ruins, they tend not to be all that fragile at all. If they're not plain out of sight, they stand a very good chance of getting a 4+ cover save. And chosen can deal with most small arms fire units that might be close by, so for me, they do indeed make an excellent choice for holding objectives.

They all come with bolt pistols stock and both flamers and meltas are short range assault weapons, so those versions get to assault quite regularly actually. And those with bolters can either shoot as they close in from a distance or stay at a distance. And when they close or the opponent gets close enough, they can switch to bolt pistols and assault. Even when assaulted they still get 3 attacks. As Grumblewartz pointed out, things don't always go as planned and no matter what you equip them with, chosen remain effective at ranged as well as melee should you choose to or are are forced to. It's that versatility showing again.

I don't care what the statistics say lol, I turn into a spawn or prince like every second game. I dread rolling on that bloody table XD. I love the idea of getting buffed as you kill a character in CC but uuuugh lol.