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Hey guys, I just wanted to get a little feedback from the community about an idea I have. My girlfriend plays Nurgle Chaos Space Marines, and has been having a hell of a time trying to win anything. Granted, she doesn't have every model in the codex, but it doesn't help that CSM are so underpowered right now. Also doesn't help that her main opponent is Necrons. She hates seeing how much stuff other people can put on the field, yet she struggles to get a good number of things on the field simply because of how pricey everything is. Plus, GW apparently has an "F it, do whatever you want, forge the narrative, blah blah" attitiude. So, I proposed an idea.

I proposed to my girlfriend that we shave 10% rounding down of points off of all non-vehicle model costs, and shave 1 point off of all Mark costs.

I don't have the CSM codex in front of me, so these are just rough estimates.

For example, a Chaos Lord would go from ~65 points to ~59 points.
Warp Talons would go from ~23 points to about 20-21 points.
Daemon Princes would go from 145 to 131.
Standard Chaos Marines would go from 13-14 points to about 12-13.

Again, sorry if I don't remember their exact cost, but you get idea. What do you guys think? Implement this, and have all Marks of Chaos be a single point cheaper (I don't think there are any 1 cost marks, so that wouldn't be an issue). Is there anything else that you guys can think of help CSM out a little bit? My girlfriend loves the army but doesn't enjoy getting curb stomped by everything that moves.

Eh, as a CSM player myself I will agree that they are in need of a buff. But not so dire that a 10% drop across the board is required. I think the hardest part about playing CSM right now is that there are only 1 to 2 viable choices per slot. If you don't adhere to the small pool of unit choices you're going to have a hard time.

Dropping the cost of a Juggerlord 10% is going to make him even more crazy, or 10% off some Nurgle Oblits would be pretty bananas.

However on the other side of the fence it depends on how/who you play. I rarely follow my own advice, and find myself taking decked out Terminator squads or triple-plasma Forgefiends. These units could absolutely use a drop in points or a buff.

Maybe take a look at the models she has and wants to run, and then consider a case to case basis for what could be modified?

 clamclaw wrote:
Eh, as a CSM player myself I will agree that they are in need of a buff. But not so dire that a 10% drop across the board is required. I think the hardest part about playing CSM right now is that there are only 1 to 2 viable choices per slot. If you don't adhere to the small pool of unit choices you're going to have a hard time.

Dropping the cost of a Juggerlord 10% is going to make him even more crazy, or 10% off some Nurgle Oblits would be pretty bananas.

However on the other side of the fence it depends on how/who you play. I rarely follow my own advice, and find myself taking decked out Terminator squads or triple-plasma Forgefiends. These units could absolutely use a drop in points or a buff.

Maybe take a look at the models she has and wants to run, and then consider a case to case basis for what could be modified?

Well, she typically runs a Daemon Prince, Nurgle Termies, Typhus, Plague Marines, Cultists, regular Nurgle Marines, and Oblits and Havocs. That's the bulk of her force, with maybe a predator or some rhinos thrown in sometimes.

You've got a nice chunk of effective units in there, depending on how they are equipped.

With Typhus, you can take Plague Zombies for your horde/troops. Just use cultists or some such for models. Sure you lose your ranged weapon (autoguns are pretty shoddy anyways) but you gain FNP and T4.

Nurgle Obilts can be pretty fun given T5 and 2+/5+, I actually like to run them in squads of 1 each, given enough heavy support slots. You'll be triggering leadership with 1 casualty anyways, might as well make it a non-factor.

Autocannon Havocs are a favorite of mine, though I'm not sure what all heavy weapon options you might have. Also, avoid putting any extra points into the Sergeant or marks. Normally not worth the investment. If someone wants a 5 man marine squad dead, it's going to happen.

Sadly Terminators are very inefficient points-wise. You can get away with a nice Termicide melta deeptrike, though that's the only way I've had mine be effective. You could consider giving a point decrease to them, or maybe cheaper wargear options so they dont end up costing an arm and a leg.

Daemon Prince is another that really depends on their gear. They can either stomp, or get focus fired out of the game immediately.

Plague Marines vs. MoN Marines never seems to have a clear consensus, though I always prefer Plague Marines. The FNP and 4+ poisoned melee outweighs the points for marking a squad of normal marines, IMO. Make sure to run them in 7's with dual specialist weapons to maximize their benefit over standard marines.

 clamclaw wrote:
You've got a nice chunk of effective units in there, depending on how they are equipped.

With Typhus, you can take Plague Zombies for your horde/troops. Just use cultists or some such for models. Sure you lose your ranged weapon (autoguns are pretty shoddy anyways) but you gain FNP and T4.

Nurgle Obilts can be pretty fun given T5 and 2+/5+, I actually like to run them in squads of 1 each, given enough heavy support slots. You'll be triggering leadership with 1 casualty anyways, might as well make it a non-factor.

Autocannon Havocs are a favorite of mine, though I'm not sure what all heavy weapon options you might have. Also, avoid putting any extra points into the Sergeant or marks. Normally not worth the investment. If someone wants a 5 man marine squad dead, it's going to happen.

Sadly Terminators are very inefficient points-wise. You can get away with a nice Termicide melta deeptrike, though that's the only way I've had mine be effective. You could consider giving a point decrease to them, or maybe cheaper wargear options so they dont end up costing an arm and a leg.

Daemon Prince is another that really depends on their gear. They can either stomp, or get focus fired out of the game immediately.

Plague Marines vs. MoN Marines never seems to have a clear consensus, though I always prefer Plague Marines. The FNP and 4+ poisoned melee outweighs the points for marking a squad of normal marines, IMO. Make sure to run them in 7's with dual specialist weapons to maximize their benefit over standard marines.

Just a clarification, Plague Zombies don't become T4. They stay at T3.

Otherwise, when I look at it, even good units like Plague Marines getting a 10% decrease in cost isn't that bad. They go from, what, 27 points to ~25 points? That's not that huge, and everything in the newer codexes is really cheap anyway.

Easier solution is add 10% to her army points instead of having to change the unit points all the time.

1850 becomes 2035, thats pretty neat

 Dakkamite wrote:
Easier solution is add 10% to her army points instead of having to change the unit points all the time.

1850 becomes 2035, thats pretty neat

Hmm, I suppose that would be an easier solution.

Thanks for the point on T3 zombies, totally forgot.

Adding points makes a lot more sense, ha. Could always tailor a scenario to CSM advantage too, depending on how you normally play.

I'd also point out that necrons are probably kind of a bad matchup for her. Nurgle's whole thing is that he dies more slowly than his enemies. Necrons are probably pretty close to nurgle marines in terms of durability, and they have a lot more stuff that will ignore her armor saves than she has stuff to shut down their reanimation protocols. So far, I've found even terminators to be a losing fight against a lot of necron units.

How has she fared dealing with other armies? Chaos marines aren't amazing right now, but Nurgle is generally agreed to be the most powerful option for monogod armies. Her army looks reasonably powerful (if not tournament level powerful). I imagine she could have a lot of fun against most of the lists in my local meta.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd also point out that necrons are probably kind of a bad matchup for her. Nurgle's whole thing is that he dies more slowly than his enemies. Necrons are probably pretty close to nurgle marines in terms of durability, and they have a lot more stuff that will ignore her armor saves than she has stuff to shut down their reanimation protocols. So far, I've found even terminators to be a losing fight against a lot of necron units.

How has she fared dealing with other armies? Chaos marines aren't amazing right now, but Nurgle is generally agreed to be the most powerful option for monogod armies. Her army looks reasonably powerful (if not tournament level powerful). I imagine she could have a lot of fun against most of the lists in my local meta.

Well, she's played against pure Tzeentch CSM and lost, yet she played against my buddies Eldar and almost won. She's played against Sisters and lost, but she has beaten my friend's Dark Eldar before. So, I don't know.

Hmm. Chaos Marines in general could use some love, but I think Nurgle generally comes out pretty okay in casual games. From the sounds of it, she isn't exactly losing left and right either. Is it possible she just needs a little more practice under her belt? Or has she been at 40k for a while now?

I mean, if you guys have more fun giving her a points handicap, that's totally fine. I'm just not sure she really needs it.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. Chaos Marines in general could use some love, but I think Nurgle generally comes out pretty okay in casual games. From the sounds of it, she isn't exactly losing left and right either. Is it possible she just needs a little more practice under her belt? Or has she been at 40k for a while now?

I mean, if you guys have more fun giving her a points handicap, that's totally fine. I'm just not sure she really needs it.

I mean, she does lose most of the time. I play Crons and Tyranids, and she's almost never beaten me, even my super casual lists. And the only games she's really won are games where she's allied with me (2v2s) or against my friends Dark Eldar.

I think I mentioned this the other day at the shop, actually, but Zagman has a set of rebalance codices that look pretty darn good to me. The Chaos one especially (I'm less sure about his Daemons changes, but even those aren't bad).

The only army he doesn't have covered so far is Sisters, and I'm working on that. His Dark Eldar rebalance is a little... shonky, but nothing that can't be hammered out.

All marks become free, space marines don't pay, neither should we.

Or
World eaters: all models gain mark of khorne for free.
Emps children: mark of slaanesh for free
Etc.

Basically choose a legion trait and away you go, also allow chapter tactics for renegade chapters, so raven guard for raven guard traitors.

All options that space marines get also added for renegades, so grav, land speeders etc.

Legions get access to hh equipment and stuff.

So basically one book with space marines renegades that are limited to space marine stuff and marks, the other part is legions andimited to legion stuff and marks, allies allow mixing of the 2 forces.

Either do that or remove all fluff you have written gw and remove chaos, do it properly this time of just drop chaos.

 Formosa wrote:
All marks become free, space marines don't pay, neither should we.

Or
World eaters: all models gain mark of khorne for free.
Emps children: mark of slaanesh for free
Etc.

Basically choose a legion trait and away you go, also allow chapter tactics for renegade chapters, so raven guard for raven guard traitors.

All options that space marines get also added for renegades, so grav, land speeders etc.

Legions get access to hh equipment and stuff.

So basically one book with space marines renegades that are limited to space marine stuff and marks, the other part is legions andimited to legion stuff and marks, allies allow mixing of the 2 forces.

Either do that or remove all fluff you have written gw and remove chaos, do it properly this time of just drop chaos.

Catch with free marks is, that the benefits aren't actually equal. Though I'll agree, in cases where a mark is mandatory, it should be part of the base cost of the unit.