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Ouze wrote:
Do you understand that when I said they were using Nazi iconography, I wasn't calling them Nazis? I mean, I know it feels good whaling away on a strawman, but come now.

It's kind of ironic you said "context is everything" and glossed over that the band KISS uses them, without mentioning it's in part of a larger word, and that Tolkein used them, without mentioning that he used the rest of the symbols from that alphabet as well.

Obviously, you know all these things already and are just pretending you don't, but I thought I'd mention it for any other readers that don't feel like doing a quick google search.

So far as "other iconography we shouldn't have our tax-payed-funded troops display while overseas", lets start with removing the ones that are most strongly associated with the people responsible for the holocaust, and go from there. Crazy talk!


I don't think we even need to get into the idea you're fumbling for that every skull is a totenkopf


even for the Dakka OT, these ideas are just pure lol

So your argument is that I was somehow being deceitful when I wrote it "can be seen in the logo for the band KISS" without explaining that the logo for the band KISS is the word KISS? I didn't think I needed to considering there is a previous post in this thread, on the same page as my post that shows a large picture of the band's logo. Nobody would have to use google to search for the KISS logo, CaptJake posted it a few posts above mine on the same page, people would only be confused if they read my post without reading the preceding posts on the same page of the thread.

I thought the Tolkien example was also self explanatory, runes/symbols can be used in different contexts and gain different meanings due to different context. The lightning S rune wasn't invented by the Nazis, it wasn't used solely by the Nazis and it isn't inherently a Nazi symbol.

This is a picture of US Marines, they are dressed like Marines and are standing next to flags with decades of association with US Marines. The context of this photo makes it clear that these are Marines.


When I see the above photo it doesn't make me equate US Marines with these guys. They are clearly different. The inclusion of the SS runes in both pictures doesn't create any confusion in my mind that the pictures show two categorically different groups of men.


The Marine Scout Snipers are not the Waffen SS, they don't behave like them, dress like them, and have no association with them. If you swap out that SS flag for any other flag the character and conduct of the Marines around it does not change. The Scout Snipers have done nothing wrong, they've merely chosen a symbol that you disapprove of but has been utilitized by their unit without issue for decades. You are arguing that punitive action should be taken against them for the sole transgression of violating your personal arbitrary notion of proper decorum. That's absurd.




The skull to the right of the Cobra logo is a totenkopf:

A skull-and-crossed bones symbol is centuries older than Nazi Germany. After all, even pirates in the fifteenth-through-seventeenth centuries flew them on flags.

The "lightning" SS is, also, centuries (millennia, actually) older than Nazi iconography, being Nordic runes.... representing, fittingly enough, lightning bolts.

I think you might need to download more RAM for your video card if that skull looks just like the SS Totenkopf on your screen...

The Marine Scout Snipers are not the Waffen SS, they don't behave like them, dress like them, and have no association with them. If you swap out that SS flag for any other flag the character and conduct of the Marines around it does not change. The Scout Snipers have done nothing wrong, they've merely chosen a symbol that you disapprove of but has been utilitized by their unit without issue for decades.

The 45th Infantry Division were not a Nazi Unit. They did not behave like them, dress like them, and had no association with them. When they swapped out the swastika on their unit insignia for another symbol the character and conduct of the soldiers wearing it did not change. The 45th Infantry Division did nothing wrong, they have merely chosen a symbol that some disapproved of but that has been utilized by the division without issue for decades.

You are arguing that punitive action should be taken against them for the sole transgression of violating your personal arbitrary notion of proper decorum. That's absurd

Is he arguing that every single scout sniper that has ever posed or used the rune SS should be punished, or is he arguing that in an age where everything that they do is shared with the public they might reconsider the use of stupid and questionable symbols?

Maybe you are seeing things that are not there, like all skulls suddenly becoming Nazi Totenkopf symbols, and maybe there comes a time where military leadership needs to step up and say "listen guys, I know we never really cared if you flew that stupid SS flag in the desert while killing Taliban and nobody knew what was going on. But if you guys are going to keep on posing with the stupid flag and carving SS runes into your rifles and then posting that gak on Facebook then we are going to put an end to the stupid SS runes everywhere", but arguing that using the exact same style of SS as the Nazis while at the same time not playing guitar or cosplaying as an elf is exactly like using the Cobra symbol on a unit patch is just plain silly.

They weren't there Prestor Jon, they just don't know. How dare you expect people to back up what amounts to lack of experience/knowledge about service members Dark Humor when stuff is posted on the Internet. We Service Members should be ashamed...............not

Though that Afrika Corp pic was nicely done.

Though we had the German Battle Group go nuts on us



Darkside Group in Kandahar were not going to let the Germans up stage them



Sold on the Boardwalk by TGIF

If it were a group just throwing up an SS banner for the lulz, I could maybe see the outrage.

Since it is a group called the Scout Snipers, and those are literally just the initials of their group rendered in a specific font; I would look at their behaviors and attitudes. Are they renowned for white supremacist attitudes? Do they seem to revere the tenets of the Third Reich? No, not really. So maybe let this one go.

I don't think letting internet outrage dictate policy is a winning long term strategy for any group. People need to chill out.

I think most of us understand, even though we weren't here. "Battle humor, herp derp" isn't exactly a complicated concept and nobody here thinks that sniper scouts are some sort of secret unit trying to further the cause of zombie-Hitler or anything like that.

What some people don't seem to realize is that there is "battle humor" and "gak that looks offensive when viewed by people who are not parading through a war zone".

My line of work is filled with offensive humor to deal with crap, same as cops, firemen, soldiers, etc. Most of us realize that the gak we say is funny as hell to us and builds comradery and we know that if just a tiny part of what we joke about gets out we will be in deep gak because it is offensive as hell.

No better summation of how we were raised with the Rebel flag.

When I was a kid and didn't know any better, I looked at that flag and all I saw was rebellion, which is something a teenager likes. The reason we didn't know any better is because we weren't taught any better. We were taught wrong. We were taught a myth.

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/07/25/425315875/q-a-with-chuck-reece-a-bitter-southerner-reimagines-the-region

Southern Rock when it started used Confederate Battle Standard. Kid Rock is more visual about it

According to an opinion writer for Newsweek, It’s Time to Haul Down Another Flag of Racist Hate

In part:

You know that racist flag? The one that supposedly honors history but actually spreads a pernicious myth? And is useful only to venal right-wing politicians who wish to exploit hatred by calling it heritage? It’s past time to pull it down.

Oh, wait. You thought I was referring to the Confederate flag. Actually, I’m talking about the POW/MIA flag.

I suspect this guy is not going to be popular at the next Rolling Thunder event...

While I'm all to happy to sit here and poke holes in the self-righteous indignation of Vietnam vets, I'm not really sure how that flag is racist. I suppose the author makes the argument that the flag is a lie... But racist?

We all hate those there yeller folks doncha know. This flag symbolizes that hate.

(that is my best guess for why the author calls it a racist flag)

He doesn't mention any reason why it's a racist symbol.

Obviously he wants to take a crack at the right-wing provenance of the whole thing, but that is a matter of propaganda, nothing to do with racism as far I can tell.

He declared their treatment, and the enemy’s refusal to provide a list of their names, violations of the Geneva Conventions—the better to paint the North Vietnamese as uniquely cruel and inhumane

I guess this is the closest he gets to explaining the racism angle. It's a pretty weak argument, especially when taken into consideration with all the other persuasive arguments he puts forward.

That seems to me to be entirely political propaganda, unless people are going to believe that South Vietnamese and North Vietnamese are separate races. People would have to be pretty stupid to accept that argument.

The reality of course is that both countries contained a number of ethnic groups.

I suspect the reality is Flag of Racist Hate as a title sells, and the folks he writes to are likely convinced or at least prone to believe anyone with conservative tendencies, especially those with ties to the military, are racist scum.

It appears the song and word Dixie is now beginning to come under attack:

http://5newsonline.com/category/contests/

Looking around there are other articles talking about where the word Dixie might be scrubbed from public usage.

Vote to Choose the Kutest Kidz Photo Winner?

 LordofHats wrote:
While I'm all to happy to sit here and poke holes in the self-righteous indignation of Vietnam vets, I'm not really sure how that flag is racist. I suppose the author makes the argument that the flag is a lie... But racist?

Yeah, they made a great for how it's sort of dishonest but at no point did they seem to actually make a case for, let alone prove, how it's racist despite their headline.

All in all an odd article. I'd say poor editing if it weren't likely clickbaity nonsense.

Relapse wrote:
It appears the song and word Dixie is now beginning to come under attack:

http://5newsonline.com/category/contests/

Looking around there are other articles talking about where the word Dixie might be scrubbed from public usage.

I clicked but did not immediately find it.

Getting rid of Dixie, huh? That might be problematic Because of Winn-Dixie

This Dixie?

"All the stations up here don't sign off with Dixie
The way they did in sweet home Alabama
The people here don't sip Jack Daniels whiskey
The way they do in that Tennessee mountain land

I've always heard lots about the big apple
So I thought I'd come up here and see
But all I've seen so far is one big hassle
Wish I was camped out on the Okeechobee

If this is the promised land, I've had all I can stand
And I'm headed back below that Dixie line
Well I just don't fit in and I'll never come back again
I'm busted here with Dixie on my mind
Oh, I'm stuck up here and I got Dixie on my mind

These people never smile or say a word
They're all too busy tryin' to make an extra dime
Oh, I'd love to haul 'em all down around Spartanburg
And show 'em how to raise hell in Carolina

Oh, the things you know that I miss most of all
Is the freedom of the rivers and the pines
They don't do much huntin' and fishin' up here, ya know
But I have met a few squirrels and one porcupine

If this is the promised land, I've had all I can stand
Wish I was down in Houston town tonight
Well I just don't fit in and I'll never come back again
I'm busted here with Dixie on my mind
Oh, I'm stuck up here and I got Dixie on my mind"

Read more: Hank Williams Jr. - Dixie On My Mind Lyrics | MetroLyrics

 CptJake wrote:
According to an opinion writer for Newsweek, It’s Time to Haul Down Another Flag of Racist Hate

In part:

You know that racist flag? The one that supposedly honors history but actually spreads a pernicious myth? And is useful only to venal right-wing politicians who wish to exploit hatred by calling it heritage? It’s past time to pull it down.

Oh, wait. You thought I was referring to the Confederate flag. Actually, I’m talking about the POW/MIA flag.

I suspect this guy is not going to be popular at the next Rolling Thunder event...

I'm going to go cleanse my brain now bleach. I've no idea what the Hell I read. Sounds like his brain left the reservation on that article. Second time on the apology. Special snowflake there with the tin foil hat WTF?!?1

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Vote to Choose the Kutest Kidz Photo Winner?

Weird, what happened there. Here's another article some offense taken over the name of a fair:

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/08/is_the_word_dixie_offensive_co.html

Here we go with the school story:

http://wreg.com/2015/07/28/fort-smith-school-board-bans-southside-highs-rebel-mascot-and-fight-song/

A Winston-Salem city council member wants the city to change its name because "it invokes memories of the civil war".

As I said in the Target thread. People need to shut up, nut the feth up, and get the hell out of everyone else's lives.

 djones520 wrote:

As I said in the Target thread. People need to shut up, nut the feth up, and get the hell out of everyone else's lives.

If you followed your own advice, you wouldn't be posting that reply.

And if we all followed that advice, there wouldn't be a DakkaDakka OT section

But Yellow Rose of Texas is a-ok! As long as they leave out the last verse...


And now I'm going southward, for my heart is full of woe,
I'm going back to Georgia, to find my Uncle Joe,
You may talk about your Beauregard, and sing of General Lee,
But the gallant Hood of Texas played hell in Tennessee.

This whole thing gets lamer and lamer:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/09/us/georgia-confederate-memorial-holiday-feat/index.html

But wait, there's more!

GRAND JUNCTION, Colo. (AP) - Officials at the Grand Junction Veterans Affairs Medical Center have called for the removal of the Confederate flag from a mural inside the facility's cafeteria.

The Daily Sentinel reports that the two-year-old mural is a depiction of American military history, featuring the American Revolution to the war in Iraq.

Medical center spokesman Paul Sweeney says the upper reaches of the Department of Veterans Affairs have asked that the Confederate flag shown behind an image of a Union soldier and a Confederate rebel be removed.

A banner will hide the Confederate flag until the artist of the mural is able to remove it.

The 72-year-old artist, Lee Bowerman, says he reluctantly agreed to get rid of the image.

Mural:




http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/08/14/va-confederate-flag/31707413/

That's pretty dumb

I have to ask, since this whole thing seems to have been initiated by the church shootings, if team jackets and red and blue headbands or shirts will be next on the block because of all the people who have been killed for wearing them.

Dear God.