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Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?

BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.

Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.

Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.


Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Fire warriors are better than scouts because they are shootier.

My primary complaint with Tau is the immortality of the Riptide. I don't suspect that will change, though. The rest of the list is fine, including all marker light shenanigans.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?

Not everyone ignores Morale rules. Those are army specific rules, bud.

BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.

DA gets it at BS2, period, for units in a specific formation taken as part of a larger formation.
Tau can Overwatch at +1 BS per Markerlight Counter used.

Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.

Did you seriously just say that IG Orders, which require two separate Leadership tests and can only be issued within a certain range are "miles above Markerlights in cheapness and versatility"?

A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.

Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.

A 4+ armor save is a 4+ armor save. You understand that right?

Scouts can get beefed up Cover Saves because of Camo Cloaks, and Rangers have Move Through Cover with what are effectively Pulse Rifles with -1S/-1AP. If you want to pretend that a 6+ FNP on Rangers with T3 somehow is so much better than Fire Warriors with Shield Drones, that's your little fantasy.

But that's all it is, a fantasy.

Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.

Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Grotesque With Gnarskin




No supporting fire
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

lustigjh wrote:
No supporting fire

Honestly, Supporting Fire just needs to be made a basic rule for 8th(7.5) edition. Give Tau some kind of benefit to offset the loss of it.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Eacute cole Militaire (Paris)

I want

New crysis suits with cool weapon hardpoints that Are fully moveable and poseable
A big rocket Laser bomb artillery pewpew riptide with big armour and massive firepower
New Kind of reckon suit
A New LOW Tank, antigrav, lotsa guns
New firewarriors
New drone Controlling Unit
New sniper unit

Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace.
For if you do, one day you will look behind you and you will see us And on that day, you will reap it,
and we will send you to whatever god you wish.  
   
Made in dk
Infiltrating Prowler






 Kanluwen wrote:
lustigjh wrote:
No supporting fire

Honestly, Supporting Fire just needs to be made a basic rule for 8th(7.5) edition. Give Tau some kind of benefit to offset the loss of it.


Why don't we just delete the assault phase then? Might as well at that point.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Why don't we just delete the assault phase then?"

What's an assault phase?
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Zewrath wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
lustigjh wrote:
No supporting fire

Honestly, Supporting Fire just needs to be made a basic rule for 8th(7.5) edition. Give Tau some kind of benefit to offset the loss of it.


Why don't we just delete the assault phase then? Might as well at that point.

Supporting Fire:
When an enemy unit declares a charge, all friendly models with this special rule in units within 6" of the charging unit's target can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge. Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once each phase.


If anything, it could actually be a BENEFIT for Assaulting armies since you would be able to "bait" an Overwatch reaction and Supporting Fire reaction on units that you might have built/are fielding explicitly as disposable chaff for that purpose.
   
Made in ru
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

Fire Warriors and Rangers are designed differently. Fire Warriors are designed as a synergy unit that is mediocre on its own but increases greatly in ability with support from markerlights, a cadre fireblade, or an etherial. Rangers have very little direct synergy with the rest of the codex, other than a leadership buff from being near a vehicle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 16:43:45


 
   
Made in ca
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Manitoba

 Kanluwen wrote:


If anything, it could actually be a BENEFIT for Assaulting armies since you would be able to "bait" an Overwatch reaction and Supporting Fire reaction on units that you might have built/are fielding explicitly as disposable chaff for that purpose.


Baiting sounds like an amazing tactic and concept, but sometimes it's just not possible to have enough groups assaulting at the same time to actually bait anything. And there's only so much chaff you can put in an army before the chaff is your army.

Not saying it's impossible, as it's something I try when I play against a Tau opponent, it just isn't really optional sometimes. Assaulting a shooty army is hard enough when you've got no armour, trying to pull multiples groups assaulting at the same time when you've got tons of Dakka in your face is super tricky. It would probably kill assault for assault heavy armies, like Orks where we have no armour saves that could let us sit out a round to line up the perfect charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 18:00:15


 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Trondheim wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.


Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau


Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 19:32:38


DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+


bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
Made in ru
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

 Wolfblade wrote:
 Trondheim wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.


Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau


Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)


I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.

They don't have to be played that way.
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

 Wolfblade wrote:
 Trondheim wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.


Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau


Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)


6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time

But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.

AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

 Vector Strike wrote:
6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time

But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.

I wouldn't count on that. When the next Tau codex is released, I am predicting a storm of gak that will make the 7th edition Eldar codex look like a civilized debate.

~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
 
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




Alcibiades wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 Trondheim wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.


Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau


Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)


I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.

They don't have to be played that way.


Do you also hate Guard then?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 TheNewBlood wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time

But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.

I wouldn't count on that. When the next Tau codex is released, I am predicting a storm of gak that will make the 7th edition Eldar codex look like a civilized debate.


I know. I told my friends I was going to start a Tau army and they were fine with it. Now they're getting annoyed at it. I'm toning down my army at every turn and no one can pull off a win against me. First I had to ditch my FSE since it was too powerful. Then they are getting mad at my Y'vahrah for being op. So now I can't bring that and only a Riptide. Next I'll have to field all Vespid and Kroot. -_-

Yet instead of them taking my advice on how to play better they instead get mad and say I'm the one who doesn't know how to play the game. Despite never having lost once to anybody. I'm not even trying.

I expect when our new dex comes out I'll have to use standard FOC to keep them satisfied.

Imagine their rage when the Vespit/Kroot are removed and put into their own codices so I have no choice but to bring better units. LOL.

Edit
Oh my army initially appears to be a "gunline" army but due to how I position it if I break a flank I can follow up with a crossfire. I wouldn't be playing this and I would be using FSE but they would rage hard.

In 15+ games I've only lost a single Riptide. My opponents are scrub tier AM, bad CSM, average ork, and slightly above average Tyranids player.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/18 20:51:26


 
   
Made in ru
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

SGTPozy wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 Trondheim wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.


Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau


Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)


I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.

They don't have to be played that way.


Do you also hate Guard then?
'

Depends on how they're played. Guard don't have to be played as gunline either.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Alcibiades wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 Trondheim wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.


Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau


Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)


I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.

They don't have to be played that way.


Do you also hate Guard then?
'

Depends on how they're played. Guard don't have to be played as gunline either.


Yeah, mechguard are nice to play. It's not our fault GW doesn't give us any good assualt units or a whole host of fast vehicles. Witht he exception of Blobs, which I hate. No offense to the lovers of the blob, but i follow a different style of guard.

I am the Paper Proxy Man. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Gamgee wrote:
 TheNewBlood wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time

But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.

I wouldn't count on that. When the next Tau codex is released, I am predicting a storm of gak that will make the 7th edition Eldar codex look like a civilized debate.


I know. I told my friends I was going to start a Tau army and they were fine with it. Now they're getting annoyed at it. I'm toning down my army at every turn and no one can pull off a win against me. First I had to ditch my FSE since it was too powerful. Then they are getting mad at my Y'vahrah for being op. So now I can't bring that and only a Riptide. Next I'll have to field all Vespid and Kroot. -_-

Yet instead of them taking my advice on how to play better they instead get mad and say I'm the one who doesn't know how to play the game. Despite never having lost once to anybody. I'm not even trying.

I expect when our new dex comes out I'll have to use standard FOC to keep them satisfied.

Imagine their rage when the Vespit/Kroot are removed and put into their own codices so I have no choice but to bring better units. LOL.

Edit
Oh my army initially appears to be a "gunline" army but due to how I position it if I break a flank I can follow up with a crossfire. I wouldn't be playing this and I would be using FSE but they would rage hard.

In 15+ games I've only lost a single Riptide. My opponents are scrub tier AM, bad CSM, average ork, and slightly above average Tyranids player.


Are FSE really that good? I haven't bothered to try them because I like fire warriors acting as bubble wrap/supporting fire for broadsides ( and I enjoy my buff mander, and bonding knife, as always, seems like a waste of points)

DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+


bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





FSE is indeed that good. The only times I've ever come "close" to losing is when I don't take them.

FSE w/ Tau Empire allied deatchment is even better.

I was originally doing that. Then they got mad. So FSE only. Then TE only. Then no Y'vahrah. Now they are mad I brought 6 missilesides to the last game.

I don't know what else I could possibly drop from my army. I'm now running Shadowsun, Pathfinders, and Sub-Commander Darkstrider (eeeew) and still pulling off non-stop wins. I'm now taking pretty much a mandatory kroot every game and taking th efull squad with snipers and krootox riders and hounds.

Still can't beat me. All I have left to go to is drone squads, sniper drone squads, and vespid spam and maybe stealth suit. If they can't pull a win off against that then I don't know.

I would have to park my vehicles backwards and shoot every other turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 03:19:13


 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Gamgee wrote:
FSE is indeed that good. The only times I've ever come close to losing is when I don't take them. I say "close" since it's closer than pure Tau Empire but not really.

FSE w/ Tau Empire allied deatchment if even better.

I was originally doing that. Then they got mad. So FSE only. Then TE only. Then no Y'vahrah. Now they are mad I brought 6 missilesides to the last game.

I don't know what else I could possibly drop from my army. I'm now running Shadowsun, Pathfinders, and Sub-Commander Darkstrider (eeeew) and still pulling off non-stop wins. I'm now taking pretty much a mandatory kroot every game and taking th efull squad with snipers and krootox riders and hounds.

Still can't beat me. All I have left to go to is drone squads, sniper drone squads, and vespid spam and maybe stealth suit. If they can't pull a win off against that then I don't know.

I would have to park my vehicles backwards and shoot every other turn.


Hm, might need to try FSE out a bit then, and it sounds like your friends need to step up their game and learn from their mistakes rather than blaming you. (but that's neither here nor there, and is getting pretty off topic now)

DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+


bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Playing FSE is a lot different than normal TE. You need to use the mobility of your suits to your advantage. Attack and harass like crazy.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Gamgee wrote:
Playing FSE is a lot different than normal TE. You need to use the mobility of your suits to your advantage. Attack and harass like crazy.

That's what I imagine, since it's a lot like the old Tau 'dex where you had to rely on crisis far more with their JSJ tactics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 03:55:18


DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+


bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 Kanluwen wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?

Not everyone ignores Morale rules. Those are army specific rules, bud.


50 flavors of space marines is hardly "army spesific", daemons, tyranids and orks also has their own variations of moral (some better than others), necrons with cross board Ld10 also don't quite play the same rules there.
And nearly every army got fearless HQs and units.




BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.

DA gets it at BS2, period, for units in a specific formation taken as part of a larger formation.
Tau can Overwatch at +1 BS per Markerlight Counter used.

They can get it at BS4 with the big formation. tau markerlights need to hit to begin with, meaning you need to to be within 6" of assaulted unit, and than hit them at BS1. hardly reliable.


Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.

Did you seriously just say that IG Orders, which require two separate Leadership tests and can only be issued within a certain range are "miles above Markerlights in cheapness and versatility"?

ONE ld check, not two. no idea where you get the second.
A CCS costs just 60 points when looking for budget, and the PCS is mere 30 (though only available one-per-platoon).
Markers can get BS bonus, lunch a seeker (if you got one) or ignore cover, orders can be: precision shot, split fire, extra shots, move&shoot, improving run, pinning, tankhunter&monsterhunter, ignore cover, instant regroup.
If you claim that markerlights are somehow more versatile, we got an issue.


A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.

how is a team 44 points and an upgraded team 34 is beyond me, but a team of 4, 1 shasui and two drones is actually 78 points, for 6 marker SHOTS (not hits), of them 4 at BS3 and 2 at BS2, meaning on average you get 2.66 hits. (far from your "6 hits at 34 points" I can improve it by simply stacking 6 pathys for 66 points landing an average of 3, but still nowhere near 6 at 34.)
Markerlight range is 36" from the TARGET, while order rangeis 18" from YOUR OWN UNIT. big difference see? markers can buff far away units, but not far away targets. orders can buff far away targets, but not far away unit. two sides of same coin, none superior to the other.
And again, orders take a single LD check, not two.



Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.

A 4+ armor save is a 4+ armor save. You understand that right?

Scouts can get beefed up Cover Saves because of Camo Cloaks, and Rangers have Move Through Cover with what are effectively Pulse Rifles with -1S/-1AP. If you want to pretend that a 6+ FNP on Rangers with T3 somehow is so much better than Fire Warriors with Shield Drones, that's your little fantasy.

But that's all it is, a fantasy.
Who's talking about scout cover saves? they have same armor, do similar damage due to improved BS, have much superior statline and an array of powerful USRs, plus some weapon choices. I'd switch FW for scouts in my tau army without even blinking.
As for ranges, its -1S/-1AP with PRECISION shots, MTC, the ability to take special weapons (tau got none), superior statlines, and yes, that little 6+fnp helps. better than nothing FW has. also a non-brainer switch if it was an option, if only for arc rifles.

Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.



Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.

Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.

Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.



Responses in red.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 10:59:59


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




IoM is not a codex. The concept of IoM is the very definition of pay-to-win. Get rid of allies and this gets rid of "IoM".
   
Made in ca
Elite Tyranid Warrior





Riptide nerf and Gue'vesa as a troop choice. Also a fast attack crisis suit.

3500 Imperium army

1250 Nidzilla

1000 Chaos army

1000 Drukhari Raiding Force  
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Future reference? Don't do this "responses in red" garbage. It's annoying, and it takes no effort to break quotes down properly and reply.
 BoomWolf wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?

Not everyone ignores Morale rules. Those are army specific rules, bud.


50 flavors of space marines is hardly "army specific", daemons, tyranids and orks also has their own variations of moral (some better than others), necrons with cross board Ld10 also don't quite play the same rules there.
And nearly every army got fearless HQs and units.

Not "every army got fearless HQs and units". And honestly, I think you're forgetting that you have access to Leadership boosts in the form of Ethereals.



BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.

DA gets it at BS2, period, for units in a specific formation taken as part of a larger formation.
Tau can Overwatch at +1 BS per Markerlight Counter used.

They can get it at BS4 with the big formation. tau markerlights need to hit to begin with, meaning you need to to be within 6" of assaulted unit, and than hit them at BS1. hardly reliable.

So what if they get it at BS4 "with the big formation"? The big formation requires you to take specific units and grants you a bonus. When the Tau get a new book, you're very likely to get something similar.

And let's not forget that Markerlights grant you no saves, so if they hit--they hit, with no Cover or Armor saves allowed. Don't pretend that is not a big deal.


Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.

Did you seriously just say that IG Orders, which require two separate Leadership tests and can only be issued within a certain range are "miles above Markerlights in cheapness and versatility"?

ONE ld check, not two. no idea where you get the second.

Remembering something else, that's my bad. Doesn't change my point though.

A CCS costs just 60 points when looking for budget, and the PCS is mere 30 (though only available one-per-platoon).[
Markers can get BS bonus, lunch a seeker (if you got one) or ignore cover, orders can be: precision shot, split fire, extra shots, move&shoot, improving run, pinning, tankhunter&monsterhunter, ignore cover, instant regroup.
If you claim that markerlights are somehow more versatile, we got an issue.

Markerlights grant a Ballistic Skill bonus per Markerlight Counter expended, grants Ignore Cover for a single Markerlight Counter, and fires a Seeker Missile per Markerlight Counter used.

Those orders you mentioned?
A Platoon Command Squad can issue 6 out of the 9 Orders. All Officers can only issue a single Order per turn, unless they have a rule allowing them to issue more than one Order...which requires a Warlord trait(#6, "Master of Command").

So a Platoon Command Squad can issue an Order which forces you to make shooting attacks with Precision Shots(oh boy! 6s mean you get to choose who gets hit, amazing with Lasguns!), Split Fire, an additional shot if you're using Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns, shooting and then Running, shooting attacks with Pinning, and one which forces the unit to give up its Shooting phase to Run.

You require a Company Command Squad to issue the remaining 3 Orders. Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter, Ignores Cover, and one whole Order that is just for cancelling out falling back/Gone to Ground.


A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.


how is a team 44 points and an upgraded team 34 is beyond me, but a team of 4, 1 shasui and two drones is actually 78 points,

Is it really that hard for you to understand that I did the math for each portion separate? It costs you 34 points to upgrade a Shas'ui and add in 2 Marker Drones. The team is 44 points and a Shas'ui and 2 Marker Drones are 34 points.

The fact that you said 78 points tells me you got it but just thought you could play a "Gotcha!" card.
for 6 marker SHOTS (not hits), of them 4 at BS3 and 2 at BS2, meaning on average you get 2.66 hits. (far from your "6 hits at 34 points" I can improve it by simply stacking 6 pathys for 66 points landing an average of 3, but still nowhere near 6 at 34.)
Markerlight range is 36" from the TARGET, while order range is 18" from YOUR OWN UNIT. big difference see? markers can buff far away units, but not far away targets. orders can buff far away targets, but not far away unit. two sides of same coin, none superior to the other.
And again, orders take a single LD check, not two.

Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.

So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!

Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.

A 4+ armor save is a 4+ armor save. You understand that right?

Scouts can get beefed up Cover Saves because of Camo Cloaks, and Rangers have Move Through Cover with what are effectively Pulse Rifles with -1S/-1AP. If you want to pretend that a 6+ FNP on Rangers with T3 somehow is so much better than Fire Warriors with Shield Drones, that's your little fantasy.

But that's all it is, a fantasy.
Who's talking about scout cover saves? they have same armor, do similar damage due to improved BS, have much superior statline and an array of powerful USRs, plus some weapon choices. I'd switch FW for scouts in my tau army without even blinking.
As for ranges, its -1S/-1AP with PRECISION shots, MTC, the ability to take special weapons (tau got none), superior statlines, and yes, that little 6+fnp helps. better than nothing FW has. also a non-brainer switch if it was an option, if only for arc rifles.

You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.

And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.

And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".

Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.

And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?

Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.

Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.

Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?

Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 13:46:25


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Having ATSKNF doesn't help marine squads that are wiped out wholesale. Which is what usually happens. Morale is pretty minor in the face of 7th ed firepower, which usually leaves nothing standing.
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




"Future reference? Don't do this "responses in red" garbage. It's annoying, and it takes no effort to break quotes down properly and reply."

Didn't you just do the exact same thing though (except you didn't change the colour)?

Edit: he's edited it now so now my post looks silly :(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 14:32:07


 
   
 
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