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It might just be a preference thing as well, but I find the "RIR" thing to be a tad rude as well. You can't be bothered to properly utilize quote tags but you can be bothered to use color tags?

Markerlights grant a Ballistic Skill bonus per Markerlight Counter expended, grants Ignore Cover for a single Markerlight Counter, and fires a Seeker Missile per Markerlight Counter used.

Mostly right, cover is 2 counters however.

A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.

Pink in quotes is bad.

Yes it is.

Anyway. After looking into the issues with the current codex, I want:

•A decent Battlesuit detachment.
•To keep my relics.
•New Crisis Suit models.
•Buffs to the codex fliers.
•Nerfs to Markerlights (so I can get a game without feeling guilty)
•If they are not put in a seperate dex, buffs to Xenos auxilaries.

Given what they just vomited forth for the DA, which does anyone think that marker lights are the problem? All the sources of marker lights die to reasonable firepower.

The most unreasonable things in the codex are the Riptide w/IA (unreasonable is putting it mildly) and the missileside. But even the missilesides die if you shoot them with lascannons or plasma. Only the Riptide requires grav.

Tau need their crap units buffed up to usefulness like everyone else and the IA neutered. Give them some other anti-heavy infantry tech, but please make the IA not a thing anymore. I've seen it enough.

Please, learn how to use the quote function.

 Wolfblade wrote:

On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.

Or they're going to have a 4+ save from cover in ruins, etc.

Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.

So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still

And a Guard player can also be locked out, entirely, from Orders if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 6's.
Or the Guard player can be able to issue Orders automatically with no LD tests if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 1's.

Let's not pretend that dice rolls aren't a part of the game, shall we?

You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.

And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.

However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck

If they're a character they get a 2+, if they're a non-character model such as a Shas'ui they still have whatever a normal

And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.

Sure, Vanguard are 9 points each. But they're also still moving 6" each turn and can opt to Run in their Shooting phase(which isn't usually a bad idea because of the fact that their guns are 18" Assault 3).

And Rangers v. Fire Warriors wouldn't necessarily be Rangers winning "hands down". If Rangers hit(which is certainly more likely than not but it is still possible to miss) and wound, yes that means a FW needs to have a FNP or Invul or Cover save to make a save against the Rangers' shots, but the FW is wounding on 2+ versus the Rangers wounding on 3+. The Rangers gets their Armor save of 4+ and their FNP of 6+ however.

Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.

And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.

And that's certainly an issue, but it's not like you're being forced to take them are you?

Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.

Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.

Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.

What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?

Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC

Im starting to get the feeling the someone is a little butthurt about 50 FRFSRF IG killing off his 12 man Firewarrior squad......

Really, if you are claiming that the IG are OP than your just invalidating your own point.

Inflitrators do absolutely astonishing damage in close combat. I couldn't believe it when I first did the math.

The free upgrades thing is good, but

a) Skitarii/Ad Mech don't really have much in the way of upgrades. So it's a refractor field for all the characters + the relics + some heavy stubbers and gizmos on the Onagers + special weapons

b) With the exception of the plasma caliver without Gets Out, most of the special weapons are actually lateral moves, decreasing your ability in other areas. Arc rifles for instance are worse (except at 18-24") thatn radium carbines against infantry, which is the primary target of Vanguard, as are transuranic arquebuses (again with range factored into account) vis a vis galvanic rifles (against 4+ infantry anyway).

IG are OP? Whatever. IG have their moments, but OP? Eldar sneeze and ALL the fire warriors die. They can wholesale slaughter you outside your pulse rifle range. Priceless.

Incidentally,a full squad of Vanguard will put a surprising amount of damage on a Wraithknight with their base radium carbines, 2 wounds IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of which, I fully expect Vespid neutron blasters to get the rad poisoning rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Please, learn how to use the quote function.

 Wolfblade wrote:

On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.

Or they're going to have a 4+ save from cover in ruins, etc.

Possible, point still stands that pathfinders fall apart pretty quickly

Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.

So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still

And a Guard player can also be locked out, entirely, from Orders if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 6's.
Or the Guard player can be able to issue Orders automatically with no LD tests if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 1's.

Let's not pretend that dice rolls aren't a part of the game, shall we?

And a Tau player could roll all 1-3s on their markerlights, what's your point? Double 6s or 1s have a 1/36 chance of coming up, so it'd be pretty uncommon to see that happen.

You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.

And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.

However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck

If they're a character they get a 2+, if they're a non-character model such as a Shas'ui they still have whatever a normal
Shasui are characters, not ICs. characters get a 4+, ICs get a 2+ iirc.

And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.

Sure, Vanguard are 9 points each. But they're also still moving 6" each turn and can opt to Run in their Shooting phase(which isn't usually a bad idea because of the fact that their guns are 18" Assault 3).

And Rangers v. Fire Warriors wouldn't necessarily be Rangers winning "hands down". If Rangers hit(which is certainly more likely than not but it is still possible to miss) and wound, yes that means a FW needs to have a FNP or Invul or Cover save to make a save against the Rangers' shots, but the FW is wounding on 2+ versus the Rangers wounding on 3+. The Rangers gets their Armor save of 4+ and their FNP of 6+ however.

the 2+ wound doesn't make as much of a difference as you think, a squad of 12 FWs firing at the rangers (outside of rapid fire), no cover will get 5 wounds, 2.1 (rounded) wounds unsaved vs the rangers dealing 4.44 if the fire warriors don't have any cover (4+ cover obviously brings it down to 2.22) So no, FWs die to rangers unless they have an aegis or something similar

Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.

And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.

And that's certainly an issue, but it's not like you're being forced to take them are you?
And that solves anything how?

Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.

Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.

Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.

What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?

Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC

Dunestrider grants you +3 inches to your Charge, Run, and Movement. Scout is a wash, because it specifically states that it doesn't allow you to Outflank anything which would not be able to thanks to a different rule such as Infiltrate or a Mission special rule.
That's not bad 9" if they don't move through difficult terrain, a minimum of a 4" run or charge. it means while they're not as durable as say, bikers, they can still move roughly as fast if they run.

Which means that Infiltrators can do it, but nobody else can.
Dragoons can do it in a different formation but they do NOT get Crusader if they are taken as part of that Formation and the formation requires 2x units of Dragoons and a unit of Ironstrider Ballistarii.

Yes, Infiltrators and Ruststalkers have 2W each--but again, T3 with 4+/6++ and a 5+ FNP.
For 35 points per model(Infiltrator) or 30 points per model(Ruststalker).
And thanks to BB they can use the BA taxi service, or any number of vehicles.8

As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.

said formation also grants FREE upgrades to every unit. And honestly, the arc rifle is better since plas/grav can be done by the mechanicus better if you're going that route. Or Dunecrawlers if you're not running mechanicus. Or any of the IoM BBs, i.e skyhammer for a massive alpha strike so your other stuff can close in.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Please, learn how to use the quote function.

 Wolfblade wrote:

On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.

Or they're going to have a 4+ save from cover in ruins, etc.

Possible, point still stands that pathfinders fall apart pretty quickly

Yeah, and? So do any number of 5+ save units.

Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.

So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still

And a Guard player can also be locked out, entirely, from Orders if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 6's.
Or the Guard player can be able to issue Orders automatically with no LD tests if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 1's.

Let's not pretend that dice rolls aren't a part of the game, shall we?

And a Tau player could roll all 1-3s on their markerlights, what's your point? Double 6s or 1s have a 1/36 chance of coming up, so it'd be pretty uncommon to see that happen.

It's not as uncommon as you might think, considering if a Guard player is running Infantry Platoons there are anywhere from 3(the minimum of 2 Troops[Platoons require a PCS] and 1 HQ[Company Command Squad]) Officers to 11 Officers(6 Platoon Command Squads, 2 Company Command Squads, 3 Tempestus Command Squads in Tempestus Platoons) issuing Orders per turn.

That can potentially be anywhere from 5 Orders per turn if your Warlord rolls a 6 on the Guard Warlord traits(you issue an additional Order per turn) table to 14 Orders per turn if your Warlord rolls a 6 for Warlord trait.

The likelihood of double 6s or double 1s cropping up in that is higher than you might think, and to continue to act as though being locked out of your army's special rule is somehow comparable to a single unit of Markerlights not hitting is just plain silly.

If you had to make Leadership tests to engage in Supporting Fire, and on rolls of 6s your entire army was locked out of Overwatch? That would be comparable.

You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.

And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.

However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck

If they're a character they get a 2+, if they're a non-character model such as a Shas'ui they still have whatever a normal
Shasui are characters, not ICs. characters get a 4+, ICs get a 2+ iirc.

They're characters, but let's not pretend that when someone refers to a character they're referring to a Sergeant, okay?

And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.

Sure, Vanguard are 9 points each. But they're also still moving 6" each turn and can opt to Run in their Shooting phase(which isn't usually a bad idea because of the fact that their guns are 18" Assault 3).

And Rangers v. Fire Warriors wouldn't necessarily be Rangers winning "hands down". If Rangers hit(which is certainly more likely than not but it is still possible to miss) and wound, yes that means a FW needs to have a FNP or Invul or Cover save to make a save against the Rangers' shots, but the FW is wounding on 2+ versus the Rangers wounding on 3+. The Rangers gets their Armor save of 4+ and their FNP of 6+ however.

the 2+ wound doesn't make as much of a difference as you think, a squad of 12 FWs firing at the rangers (outside of rapid fire), no cover will get 5 wounds, 2.1 (rounded) wounds unsaved vs the rangers dealing 4.44 if the fire warriors don't have any cover (4+ cover obviously brings it down to 2.22) So no, FWs die to rangers unless they have an aegis or something similar

The 2+ Wound makes a huge difference in terms of threat allocation.

Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.

And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.

And that's certainly an issue, but it's not like you're being forced to take them are you?
And that solves anything how?

So don't take them and instead take Gun Drones or Marker Drones?

Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.

What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.

Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.

Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.

What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?

Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC

Dunestrider grants you +3 inches to your Charge, Run, and Movement. Scout is a wash, because it specifically states that it doesn't allow you to Outflank anything which would not be able to thanks to a different rule such as Infiltrate or a Mission special rule.
That's not bad 9" if they don't move through difficult terrain, a minimum of a 4" run or charge. it means while they're not as durable as say, bikers, they can still move roughly as fast if they run.

Right, but again--T3 4+/6++. On paper they're amazing--in practical terms, they're dead before they ever get a Charge off if someone knows what they can do.

Which means that Infiltrators can do it, but nobody else can.
Dragoons can do it in a different formation but they do NOT get Crusader if they are taken as part of that Formation and the formation requires 2x units of Dragoons and a unit of Ironstrider Ballistarii.

Yes, Infiltrators and Ruststalkers have 2W each--but again, T3 with 4+/6++ and a 5+ FNP.
For 35 points per model(Infiltrator) or 30 points per model(Ruststalker).
And thanks to BB they can use the BA taxi service, or any number of vehicles.8

Not everyone plays BA taxi service, so shove that crap elsewhere.

As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.

said formation also grants FREE upgrades to every unit. And honestly, the arc rifle is better since plas/grav can be done by the mechanicus better if you're going that route. Or Dunecrawlers if you're not running mechanicus. Or any of the IoM BBs, i.e skyhammer for a massive alpha strike so your other stuff can close in.

Absolutely and utterly incorrect.

The Mechanicus War Conclave is the White Dwarf formation that grants "free upgrades to every unit" and it specifically requires a Skitarii Battle Maniple formation(1 of each unit with the only choice being Dragoons or Ironstriders), an Oathsworn Imperial Knight(meaning no Relics on the Knight), and a Cult Mechanicus detachment consisting of 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices(minimum).

My bad got them mixed up

How do you get them mixed up? You clearly have a passing knowledge of the Skitarii book, and that formation is nowhere in the book. It's a WD formation.

And Dunecrawlers have no access to plas/grav so not sure why you're bringing them up.
My bad, forgot to add they bring a source of high S low AP

Oh right, the Eradication Beamer--with its range bands that end up with a Large Blast that is S6 AP5 and still allows Cover Saves?
Or the Neutron Laser--which uses the small blast template for S10 AP1 and still allows Cover Saves?
The Heavy Phospher Blaster, which is S6 AP3 Heavy 3--still allowing Cover Saves?
And bear in mind, the only "Ignores Cover" in the book is on the Icarus Array's "Gatling Rocket Launcher" which is S6 AP4 Heavy 5 Skyfire.

And really, Skyhammer? Do you think everyone plays with crummy scans of rules? Get that crap out of here.
Of course not, I was just grabbing an extreme sample. It'd be the same thing with BA taxi service, or bringing admech for longer range firepower, or SM bikers, and so on.

I think it's disingenuous to compare Doctrina Imperatives directly with orders or markerlights. At the high levels the former has heavy downsides, and it affects the whole army. You can't pick and choose who gets +3 BS -2 WS. If some of your army is in assault and you activate that. you've possibly just let them get butchered.

In addition to being usable once each, whereas orders or markerlights can be used over and over. And being much more versatile. There's no ignore cover for DIs, no run extra fast, no split fire, no increasing BS on Overwatch..

LADIES!
COULD WE PLEASE STOP ARGUING AND JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE!
GET BACK ON TOPIC!
I DONT WANT THIS THREAD LOCKED!

The point of a discussion board is to argue.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The point of a discussion board is to argue.

No it isn't

*Changes to riptide to make it balanced (ei, nerf/price increase IA) or just get rid of it

*Old marker rules, and by old marker rules I mean all of them, including the ability to decrease ld of units and force a pinning test (IIRC)

*Decrease devilfish cost. It's balanced, just too expensive.

*Re-work stealth suits. Invisability seems like a good choice, an giving them some weapon options might be nice

*BS4 bodygaurds, FFS!

*Do something with Railgun and HRR to make them worth it

*Just get rid of the codex flies, IMO. We have the barracuda, that's all we need.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think it's disingenuous to compare Doctrina Imperatives directly with orders or markerlights. At the high levels the former has heavy downsides, and it affects the whole army. You can't pick and choose who gets +3 BS -2 WS. If some of your army is in assault and you activate that. you've possibly just let them get butchered.

In addition to being usable once each, whereas orders or markerlights can be used over and over. And being much more versatile. There's no ignore cover for DIs, no run extra fast, no split fire, no increasing BS on Overwatch..

Markerlights can do only two of those things, and only one of them with any reliability.

I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

Edit:Accidentally replied to myself.

So, I don't feel like going down this argument path anymore, just gonna point out a couple things:
1. Characters with heavy weapons (i.e. those that you would want to target with precision shots) CANNOT have a LoS roll UNLESS they have the character rule. Which most don't. I.e. you have a 10 man squad of guardsmen, one with a melta gun, 8 regulars, and a sarge. I fire shots that have precision shots rule, get 3 6s with it. I put 1 on the sarge, 2 on the meltagun guardsman. The sarge can take a LoS roll, but the meltagun cannot, as the meltagun guardsman doessn't have the character rule.

2. Not entirely sure what you mean "threat allocation". Because rangers will kill FWs pretty darn effectively.

3. Taking gun or marker drones over shield drones doesn't fix anything. (and SG = shield generators fyi)

4. Sure, Skitarii out in the open die pretty quickly, that's the nature of 7th, but they have access to amazing transports (i.e. drop pods), and you can say "not everyone plays it", but there are people who do, so, don't pretend it doesn't happen. Literally you don't like that I bring something up, and instead of coming up with a good counter point, you just sasy "don't use that argument! I don't like it!"

5. I have a PASSING knowledge of the skitarii book, and it's not on hand currently. I sorta know the bonuses for the maniple, but nothing about the other formations as they didn't really interest me.

6. Not sure what your point about the weapons allowing cover saves are. High S low AP is still high S low AP. Sure units will claim cover/invul saves, but you're lowering the save and what about the units who aren't in cover? Surely you don't think units are in cover 24/7. Or maybe my group plays differently in that we use a moderate amount of cover (never more than 50% never less than about 30% of the board, generally no area terrain that you get to claim a save just for touching it)

7. You have allies, and people use 'em, you can't ignore them, just like I didn't expect you to ignore FSE. One of the great things for IoM armies is being able to use other armies with no downside (minus actually having to pay for units you might not want, i.e. HQs)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
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Alcibiades wrote:
I think it's disingenuous to compare Doctrina Imperatives directly with orders or markerlights. At the high levels the former has heavy downsides, and it affects the whole army. You can't pick and choose who gets +3 BS -2 WS. If some of your army is in assault and you activate that. you've possibly just let them get butchered.

In addition to being usable once each, whereas orders or markerlights can be used over and over. And being much more versatile. There's no ignore cover for DIs, no run extra fast, no split fire, no increasing BS on Overwatch..

Markerlights can do only two of those things, and only one of them with any reliability.

Absolutely (and fire seeker missiles). But the point is that Doctrina Imperatives a) are army-wide and have downsides at the higher levels, b) cannot be used multiple times, and c) only do one thing.


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The point is not that they are better or worse, but that they cannot be directly compared.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.

I want a nerf.

Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau

Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)

An army doesn't have to be top-tier to suck the fun out of the game.


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 Kanluwen wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
No supporting fire

Honestly, Supporting Fire just needs to be made a basic rule for 8th(7.5) edition. Give Tau some kind of benefit to offset the loss of it.

Are you kidding? Overwatch is totally unnecessary as it is. Giving the Tau bonus shooting phases simply for playing against assault armies is absurd.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.

Id be fine with that - they would need point increase though.

While it would play fine it would take tons of the flavor out of the unit. I would say have them have an upgrade called "stabilizers" if taken you can make snap shots at bs 2.

Martel732 wrote:
Having ATSKNF doesn't help marine squads that are wiped out wholesale. Which is what usually happens. Morale is pretty minor in the face of 7th ed firepower, which usually leaves nothing standing.

I've come to wonder if ATSKNF is simply a counterweight to their typically small unit size/model count. The army would otherwise be liable to being scared off the table after losing a very small number of guys (which I would love to see but recognize as unfun).

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

Both the Hammerhead and the Russ need a bump. Vehicles in general need a bump, as monstrous creatures are completely superior in every phase of the game and don't pay accordingly. I would totally give the hammerhead a "manstopper" type round that inflicts multiple wounds to MCs, as well as a Str D round for anti-vehicle work. It's got a railgun the size of a dreadnought; it should be nasty. Nastier than the weaponry on the Riptide.

I would also give Russes lumbering behemoth back and give them rear armor AV 12. Doesn't help against WK still, but it's something. Maybe it needs more, because the LR has rear armor as well and is still a useless pile of junk in general.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

It's also only one shot at BS4 (before MLs), and against everything that isn't AV14 I think missilesides are better. But the Russ needs a buff too, most vehicles do with how easy it is to glance them to death.

Single shot weapons are in general complete gak now. Exceptions are D weapons of course.

As usual, the thread became another bashing pit instead of realistical requests from either side. Please, be more mindful in the future official rumor thread.

What I would want in the new Tau Codex:
-Commander get an access to special weapons like LBBC, HYMP, some sort of variation of O'ralai weapon, etc. Might sway some players from using the Buffmander and Mark'O
-Get another suit HQ that is more CC inclined. Maybe like the Y'Vahra play style, move fast (maybe jump pack for himself and his bodyguards and still keep the thrust move) with short ranged weapons. Also, would be nice if they could also take some CC weapons, hit and run, fleet.
-Move farsight to LOW with some buff and point increase.
-Make shas'ui upgrade cheaper or +1 BS and access to drone controller.
-Move pathfinders to troops.
-Cheaper devifish or give it fireports or better weapons or even access to markerlights
-Riptide IA point increase or a nerf
-Give us a decent flier that is now FW (barracuda)! Aren't tau suppose to have air supremacy?
-Move sniper drone to FA and take out the spotter and just make them all BS 4 or 5.
-Give broadside a T5 and a point increase and an option to be slow and purposeful. Now they can either move and shoot but lose overwatch or stay still and unload some dakka!
-Do something with the rail weapons! Maybe make then heavy 2 or rapid fire... Something
-Give stealth suits access to rail rifles and ion rifles and take out the special weapon upgrade limit (probably take out the FB access so they don't just pop tanks left and right)
-Make skyray a fast skimmer so it can still move and shoot both its markerlights after it unloads missiles. Also, an option to replace the seekers with HYMP or MP.
-Some sort of decurion-esque formation and vehicle squadrons
I basically just want it to move away from a gun line and be more mobile! Some of those I requested in some sort of combination will probably make it OP... Chances are I probably won't see most of it in the new codex.

 Vector Strike wrote:
As usual, the thread became another bashing pit instead of realistical requests from either side. Please, be more mindful in the future official rumor thread.

Haven't you been paying attention these last few months? The official rumor thread will be even worse! In addition, at least ten separate complaint threads will be made/converted in the 40k board section, with at least one call to ban Tau players from competitive events. Yes, I am still bitter about that.

On topic: one change I want to see is a limit of one Signature System per model, or at least a price increase to reflect their powerful nature. If other codexes only get one relic/banner per model, Tau should too.