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I look forward to feasting on my friends tears when I deploy my KX Supremacy Armour.

Better models.

The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.

Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.

Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.

The HH is definitely not great right now. As many have said. All single shot guns are in need of some boosts. Well... most.

Another issue are all the crazy ass MC's the game has now. It wasn't that bad when it was only units like Carnifex or Wraithlord, but imagine shooting a Wraithknight with Railgun: IF you hit, and IF you wound, and IF the target doesn't make his inv. save and IF he doesn't have FNP...you cause 1 wound and no other effects. Woo hoo.

Backfire wrote:
Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.

List them.

Backfire wrote:
Another issue are all the crazy ass MC's the game has now. It wasn't that bad when it was only units like Carnifex or Wraithlord, but imagine shooting a Wraithknight with Railgun: IF you hit, and IF you wound, and IF the target doesn't make his inv. save and IF he doesn't have FNP...you cause 1 wound and no other effects. Woo hoo.

I like where MC's are at except the Wraith Knight but I feel that single shot guns need to be made better and the vehicles that carry them as well. I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at.

However. If they buff a lot of other things in our codex so they are good and will last a long time like the Riptide class of suits then I would be fine with them giving it a small points increase. I don't want our codex to be good for 3 months and then suck as some new power level comes out like what happened to the DE and AM.

". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Martel732 wrote:
". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Lascannons aren't anti-MC though... Anyway, you're IoM so you have grav!

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Lascannons aren't anti-MC though... Anyway, you're IoM so you have grav!

That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.

Martel732 wrote:
". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Didn't read the rest of the post did you.

 Gamgee wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Didn't read the rest of the post did you.

I did, but I'd prefer to not be forced to use grav to kill it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Didn't read the rest of the post did you.

I did, but I'd prefer to not be forced to use grav to kill it.

Well lascannons suck for taking him down. There are many ways to deal with a Riptide. Single shot weapons are usually not that way.

What are these many ways? For marines, I'm seeing grav and nothing else. You can't catch them, and no long range Imperial weapons can kill them.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "

Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.

Lascannons aren't anti-MC though... Anyway, you're IoM so you have grav!

That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.

So why are you complaining that a bad weapon can't kill something good? That's just silly.

Also, scrap grav then these "uberMCs" (AKA Dreadknight and Riptide) can be toned down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"I'd prefer to not be forced to use grav to kill it."

Same as I'd prefer it if I didn't have to use Riptides in order to compete against Space Marines

I'd just like to point out that the 2+ armor MC came before the grav weapon. The grav weapon just so happens to royally hose over a bunch of stuff that's NOT 2+ armor MCs as well. The Riptide still makes most marine units look foolish, as well. The few exceptions are spammed for this reason against Tau.

The riptide make nothing look foolish

The Ion Accelerator does.

True, the Ion Accelerator is a weapon choice for the riptide, but its only one of them, using the OTHER choice (heavy burst cannon) the riptide is not all that scary, for anyone.

Like I've said over a hundrend times from the day the tau codex came out, there is no reason to nerf the riptide, just the ion accelerator itself. and even with the IA, just removing the non-NOVA pie plate is probably enough without even a price increase.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The riptide make nothing look foolish

The Ion Accelerator does.

True, the Ion Accelerator is a weapon choice for the riptide, but its only one of them, using the OTHER choice (heavy burst cannon) the riptide is not all that scary, for anyone.

Like I've said over a hundrend times from the day the tau codex came out, there is no reason to nerf the riptide, just the ion accelerator itself. and even with the IA, just removing the non-NOVA pie plate is probably enough without even a price increase.

What about the NOVA pie plate? Because that's what my FNP guys are always doubled out by. Ignoring cover, of course.

 Gamgee wrote:
I look forward to feasting on my friends tears when I deploy my KX Supremacy Armour.

And then you find out it's a Superheavy Walker not a Gargantuan Creature...

"I'd just like to point out that the 2+ armor MC came before the grav weapon."

So grav is fine because something powerful came about before it? So why isn't the Riptide fine when the Helldrake came out before it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I look forward to feasting on my friends tears when I deploy my KX Supremacy Armour.

And then you find out it's a Superheavy Walker not a Gargantuan Creature...

I'd prefer a SHW as it'd force IoM armies to take weapons other than grav

" So why isn't the Riptide fine when the Helldrake came out before it?"

The Helldrake had counters (unless you were DA), the Riptide didn't. It was risky to run Helldrakes with Vendetta spam running around. Riptides + buffmanders? All day every day.

I agree that the grav cannon is just stupid, as it basically mows down any marine squad no matter how you equip them. Collateral damage indeed. But we are stuck. And at the same time, I don't know what else really kills Riptides efficiently.

Martel732 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
The riptide make nothing look foolish

The Ion Accelerator does.

True, the Ion Accelerator is a weapon choice for the riptide, but its only one of them, using the OTHER choice (heavy burst cannon) the riptide is not all that scary, for anyone.

Like I've said over a hundrend times from the day the tau codex came out, there is no reason to nerf the riptide, just the ion accelerator itself. and even with the IA, just removing the non-NOVA pie plate is probably enough without even a price increase.

What about the NOVA pie plate? Because that's what my FNP guys are always doubled out by. Ignoring cover, of course.

The NOVA pie plate on its own is not a problem.

It has a 33% to outright fail and cause a wound to the riptide instead, then it gets hot for another 16% of fail and a 16% of another wound if it does (so its about 44.5% fail to trigger the blast to begin with and about 36% to wound yourself overall), and if you want to use it in interception, you gotta set it up in advance.
Not to mention that using it would lock out any other NOVA for the turn.

Getting hit by S8+ low AP cover ignoring shots is not unique to tau. the only problem in the IA makes it so godamn easy.
However, if it has to attempt a NOVA in order to do it, its no longer easy, and no longer reliable-solving the issue.

Riptide counters:
Force
Psychic Shriek
Tarpits
Imperial Knights
Dreadknights
Snipers
Poison
Rad carbines
Plasma
Close combat
D weapons
Warp Spiders


There are more but that's all I'll do now and guest what? IoM has access to all except for the last...

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.

So why are you complaining that a bad weapon can't kill something good? That's just silly.

But that is precisely the point. Why should these MC's be more durable against weapons like Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Railguns and Meltaguns than tanks? I repeat again, more durable than TANKS. Not only doesn't that make one bit of sense, it also imbalances the game.

As I said, it wasn't that bad when it was just units like Carnifex or Wraithlord - you could argue that they were kinda balanced compared to equivalent vehicles. They had no inv saves, Carnifex had limited heavy weapons, Wraithlord had just 3 wounds. However, modern MC's have 2+ save AND 4 or more wounds AND inv save AND sometimes also FNP. It's pointless to argue that "all those things existed before Riptide (or Dreadknight)" since it is not a single characteristic which makes the MC's so absurd, but all those things combined.

Lascannons (and railguns) need to do d3 wounds or something.

You could say the same about grav; why does it destroy MCs but not vehicles?

It'd take at least 4 lascannon shots to kill a Carnifex... That's not that good either...

Backfire wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.

So why are you complaining that a bad weapon can't kill something good? That's just silly.

But that is precisely the point. Why should these MC's be more durable against weapons like Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Railguns and Meltaguns than tanks? I repeat again, more durable than TANKS. Not only doesn't that make one bit of sense, it also imbalances the game.

As I said, it wasn't that bad when it was just units like Carnifex or Wraithlord - you could argue that they were kinda balanced compared to equivalent vehicles. They had no inv saves, Carnifex had limited heavy weapons, Wraithlord had just 3 wounds. However, modern MC's have 2+ save AND 4 or more wounds AND inv save AND sometimes also FNP. It's pointless to argue that "all those things existed before Riptide (or Dreadknight)" since it is not a single characteristic which makes the MC's so absurd, but all those things combined.

They also cost more than most tanks, and bigger than many of them. the fact ITS A TANK is not relevant, being a TANK does not automatically make you any good (see exhibit devilfish)
As for the riptide "being so absurd", went over it before. while it has the durability that most MCs will be jello of, on paper, when actually trying to NOVA all the time, its rather fragile due to self-inflicted wounds (IA counters the need to NOVA though, again the problem lies there), and the FNP is a costly upgrade (though slightly undercosted by my calculations. it should have been 40 points rather than 35.) that blocks out other upgrades.
Also, unlike other MCs, its crap in CC. its not any more of a threat to most things than a single terminator in CC. most MCs, even shooty ones, can afford to just walk out the board and say "come at me bro" if you attempt a charge. riptide, really cant. he HAS to keep his distance, or risk imminent death. the IA allows him to retain too much firepower while not risking getting close, but that's again a problem with the IA design. (and again, just removing the non-NOVA pie fixes this too)

SGTPozy wrote:
Riptide counters:
Force
Psychic Shriek
Tarpits
Imperial Knights
Dreadknights
Snipers
Poison
Rad carbines
Plasma
Close combat
D weapons
Warp Spiders


There are more but that's all I'll do now and guest what? IoM has access to all except for the last...

Very few of those work in practice. You should know that, but won't admit it. The DK and CC are especially laughable, because you can never catch it.

" its rather fragile due to self-inflicted wounds "

This just does not happen as often as advertise. I've played against these things at least 30 times and rarely has this been a factor.

" its crap in CC."

Still ignores armor. Still has 2+ armor. Doesn't sound too bad to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
Lascannons (and railguns) need to do d3 wounds or something.

You could say the same about grav; why does it destroy MCs but not vehicles?

It'd take at least 4 lascannon shots to kill a Carnifex... That's not that good either...

Grav destroys vehicles. Just ask someone using LRs.

SGTPozy wrote:
Riptide counters:
Force
Psychic Shriek
Tarpits
Imperial Knights
Dreadknights
Snipers
Poison
Rad carbines
Plasma
Close combat
D weapons
Warp Spiders


There are more but that's all I'll do now and guest what? IoM has access to all except for the last...

A riptide can counter D weapons
It can just pin the d6+6 wounds on a drone

Poison is not a counter either because of 2+ armor. Do you actually play this game?