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 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I will sound ignorant for this, but what exactly is an exalt? I've only joined this site a few days ago.

A like essentially. Its an up vote to you.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I will sound ignorant for this, but what exactly is an exalt? I've only joined this site a few days ago.

Its the equivalent of a thumbs up. or a likey, or a reblog or whatever other net jargon is going on today.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The standard troop choice for the Eldar is actually the Windrider with a scatterlaser.

I was trying to make an example.

Just don't play against people who take Scatterbikes.

Tau can't take anything that isn't super strong. See, I'd love to make a Tau army. It would be great, but I look though their codex and I can't make a more engaging list. A list that people would be okay with having a go at.
The biggest problem with facing Tau is there's no variation. Just sit back and shoot. Sit back and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Blah blah blah blah. Boring boring boring boring.
Nothing changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I go to 3 different gaming stores and groups and it's all the same there. No one will play against Tau (outside of tournaments) because they're too ridiculous. It's sad that the codex is like that because we have about 4 people who play Tau and they're forced to play against each other. No one will play them. It's too boring.

You see that most often because it I'd the simplest and most obvious way, not the only, or even the best. Mobile tau (which I play myself) is fun to play with and against (ignoring riptide spam, but that's another matter entirely) . And FSE meq tau is quite fun as well.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I will sound ignorant for this, but what exactly is an exalt? I've only joined this site a few days ago.

A like essentially. Its an up vote to you.

Oh. Well. Thank you, in that case.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

SGTPozy wrote:
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

Have an exalt!

"The biggest problem with facing Tau is there's no variation. Just sit back and shoot. Sit back and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Blah blah blah blah. Boring boring boring boring.
Nothing changes."

IG gunline more often than Tau do, so where's their hate posts?

A big problem is that the devilfish is super overcosted. ESPECIALLY with scatterbikes running around HPing them out from 36" away.

Exalts in this thread be like:

One has to wonder, if Tau are so overpowered why are they not doing well in tournaments?

You see them do well here and there, but most of the time I see them in tournament lists it is just the fire base support formation, and definitely not fire warriors. I don't think even in the tau heyday in 6th any really op tau list was running fire warriors with etherials or cadre fireblades. If they where really overpowered you think you would.

they are being consistently beaten out by eldar, daemons, space marines, necrons, and tyranids. Now you can say that these armies are just even more overpowered than tau are, but having armies consistently out competing you is not a small number in a game with something like 20 armies.

I don't think tau are nearly as overpowered as you think, but they can be especially frustrating to play against. I've played against a ethereal fire warrior line a couple times. It's not a tournament winning overpowered list. It is however very good at stomping on unoptimized lists. Anybody who is used to just running a mob of boyz forward is going to have a really bad day watching the tau player count out the 6 million over watch dice.

 coblen wrote:
One has to wonder, if Tau are so overpowered why are they not doing well in tournaments?

You see them do well here and there, but most of the time I see them in tournament lists it is just the fire base support formation, and definitely not fire warriors. I don't think even in the tau heyday in 6th any really op tau list was running fire warriors with etherials or cadre fireblades. If they where really overpowered you think you would.

they are being consistently beaten out by eldar, daemons, space marines, necrons, and tyranids. Now you can say that these armies are just even more overpowered than tau are, but having armies consistently out competing you is not a small number in a game with something like 20 armies.

I don't think tau are nearly as overpowered as you think, but they can be especially frustrating to play against. I've played against a ethereal fire warrior line a couple times. It's not a tournament winning overpowered list. It is however very good at stomping on unoptimized lists. Anybody who is used to just running a mob of boyz forward is going to have a really bad day watching the tau player count out the 6 million over watch dice.

Tournament settings are very different, having a full flying circus of Daemons with Fatewever, etc will dominate anything.
I'm more referring to normal games.

SGTPozy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.

You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?

*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....

Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.

Sounds like either you're playing MASSIVELY tailored lists, or TFG again. The Tau guy isn't the same cheating SM is it? That, and IG are pretty weak too, they need an update badly. MT = Sisters (Yeah right that'll happen) > Chaos = IG = orks = nids = DE are roughly the order updates need to happen. And honestly, compare it to just about any of the other top tier codexes. Necrons? Harder to remove, gauss kills everything (or can atleast). SM? Skyhammer, Gladius, Shield Eternal CMs, grav, centstars. Eldar? Scatbikes, WK, Dweapons, etc. DA? 2+ rerolling cover saves, in your face T2, grav again. Daemons? Massive summoning power for tons of free points. Honestly, the only reason Tau aren't up there is because a lot of the really weak armies are assaulty in a VERY shooty edition.

I'd rather see a slight update to tau (i.e. repricing of things), then a massive fething nerf to Eldar/SM and something to balance out decurion (prolly just remove the ability for wraiths to get RP rolls, and it'd be pretty balanced, maybe only get the +1 to RP if they stood still? Something like that, I dunno)

 Desubot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.

You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.

No you can't. It's just an extra shot at half range.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.

You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.

No you can't. It's just an extra shot at half range.

Well its an extra shot at 15" and can buff more than 1 unit (IIRC its been a while) and IIRC can be used on the move. I dont think it stacks between ethereal s but does stack with a fire blade. the number of shots can get pretty wonky.

Is the mental exercise only for full range shots?

 Desubot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.

You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.

No you can't. It's just an extra shot at half range.

Well its an extra shot at 15" and can buff more than 1 unit (IIRC its been a while) and IIRC can be used on the move. I dont think it stacks between ethereal s but does stack with a fire blade. the number of shots can get pretty wonky.

Is the mental exercise only for full range shots?

Actually, I forgot that they were a bubble, not just a per unit thing. I'll have to do some math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, with duel FOC four full FW squads and four ethereals you can get 288 shots at 15" for a cost of 632. Although powerful, it would have limited effectiveness as it has a 15" range, and isn't very durable. Especially if you can take out the ethereals, and they give you an extra VP when killed too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would get creamed by vehicles too.

You can't stack the Ethereal's power

Are you sure? I don't use 'em myself, but I don't see anything disallowing it.

It specifically says a unit can only be affected by the power once

Ah, found it. That's what I get for looking st the quick reference.

Whether Fire Warriors can beat Rangers in a firefight is irrelevant to whether they are more powerful, except against each other. Rangers beat Fire Warriors in the open due to AP4. Against anything that is not 3+, or a light vehicle, they are more or less identical. Against MEQ they both do .111 wounds. Against T6 3+ Fire Warriors do 0.56 vs. 0.37. Against GEQ Rangers are marginally better.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 coblen wrote:
One has to wonder, if Tau are so overpowered why are they not doing well in tournaments?

You see them do well here and there, but most of the time I see them in tournament lists it is just the fire base support formation, and definitely not fire warriors. I don't think even in the tau heyday in 6th any really op tau list was running fire warriors with etherials or cadre fireblades. If they where really overpowered you think you would.

they are being consistently beaten out by eldar, daemons, space marines, necrons, and tyranids. Now you can say that these armies are just even more overpowered than tau are, but having armies consistently out competing you is not a small number in a game with something like 20 armies.

I don't think tau are nearly as overpowered as you think, but they can be especially frustrating to play against. I've played against a ethereal fire warrior line a couple times. It's not a tournament winning overpowered list. It is however very good at stomping on unoptimized lists. Anybody who is used to just running a mob of boyz forward is going to have a really bad day watching the tau player count out the 6 million over watch dice.

Tournament settings are very different, having a full flying circus of Daemons with Fatewever, etc will dominate anything.
I'm more referring to normal games.

They play by different rules in tournaments? Didn't know that

The problem is that FMC >>>> practically anything.

Wolfblade wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?

*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....

Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.

Sounds like either you're playing MASSIVELY tailored lists, or TFG again. The Tau guy isn't the same cheating SM is it? That, and IG are pretty weak too, they need an update badly. MT = Sisters (Yeah right that'll happen) > Chaos = IG = orks = nids = DE are roughly the order updates need to happen. And honestly, compare it to just about any of the other top tier codexes. Necrons? Harder to remove, gauss kills everything (or can atleast). SM? Skyhammer, Gladius, Shield Eternal CMs, grav, centstars. Eldar? Scatbikes, WK, Dweapons, etc. DA? 2+ rerolling cover saves, in your face T2, grav again. Daemons? Massive summoning power for tons of free points. Honestly, the only reason Tau aren't up there is because a lot of the really weak armies are assaulty in a VERY shooty edition.

I'd rather see a slight update to tau (i.e. repricing of things), then a massive fething nerf to Eldar/SM and something to balance out decurion (prolly just remove the ability for wraiths to get RP rolls, and it'd be pretty balanced, maybe only get the +1 to RP if they stood still? Something like that, I dunno)

Nope, this was someone else and I dont know about tailoring but the dual rapetides just would not go down. the firewarriors where capable of blitzing anything beyond their range and by the time the markerlights where rooted out of cover it was too late.
BTW from what I have seen this was his general take all comers list.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.

Exactly. Have an exalt.

Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.

Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?

Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.

The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.

That is 156 shots over the course of the three to four turns that it takes me to march my infantry into position to get the 150 shot FRFSRF alpha strike. Thankfully not all in one single turn... Yet.

Maybe we can return the thread to what we would like to see in the new Tau codex instead of another thread of inexperienced players bitching about the codex? There's another thread on here for that (and FYI we're not OP).

Now back to the original purpose of the thread personally I would like to see the following:

-Broadsides TL-Heavy Rail Rifle goes up to strength 9 at the minimum, I would love for it to go back to being strength 10 but I would be happy with it being strength 9 because as of right now we could use the extra punch for long range anti tank which we already lack.

-Riptide Formation just because of the amount of Imperial Knight armies running around has reached pretty crazy proportions (according to my FLGS store owner both riptides and Imperial Knights are some of the best sellers currently) and really I just think would be cool to see two armies of monstrous walkers duking it out. Probably will get some flack for saying this but hey if Imperial Armies can have an army of giant walkers why can't we? At least our army won't be able to spam an insane amount of D weapons.

-Fire Warriors get access to special weapons, I loved the Railgun but almost never see it. If Fire Warriors cant get special weapons at least have a special weapon squad that can field them.

-Stealth Suits go down in points.

-Barracuda becomes a flyer choice in the new codex or they fix the current fighter and bomber.

Naw wrote:

The problem is that Crazy Shooty/Psychic Shooty FMC >>>> practically anything.

FTFY.

CC FMCs don't do jack normally, other than get shot down when they prepare to assault.
Also, I'd hardly call Slaanesh Whip Princes OP. 2d6 S6 AP- shots are pretty worthless unless you're targeting AV 12 or less vehicles.

Now OT:

While I can't speak about where Tau need to be buffed specifically (except that their Flyers are bad and I hear Vespids are worse) there's only 3 things I feel need a nerf (or in one case that I want to get removed/replaced)

- Riptide's IA needs to get fixed. It's way too cheap. (Not anything new, Everyone knows this and has already said this)
- Markerlights no longer ignore cover for 2 lights, instead giving a -1 debuff for 1. (Again, already suggested.)
- Supporting Fire removed. (This is just because I hate it and all it encourages, not because it's broken or anything. I'm fine with it getting replaced with something like BS2 overwatch but for the love of god please remove this castle-encouraging rule. My CC units are already mangled enough from the 2-3 shooting phases they've been through just to reach your lines, they don't need to suffer a 4th!)

My hatred of Supporting Fire is probably illogical, and I'll admit as such, but by god do I hate it... *grumble grumble*

 gmaleron wrote:
Maybe we can return the thread to what we would like to see in the new Tau codex instead of another thread of inexperienced players bitching about the codex? There's another thread on here for that (and FYI we're not OP).

Now back to the original purpose of the thread personally I would like to see the following:

-Broadsides TL-Heavy Rail Rifle goes up to strength 9 at the minimum, I would love for it to go back to being strength 10 but I would be happy with it being strength 9 because as of right now we could use the extra punch for long range anti tank which we already lack.

-Riptide Formation just because of the amount of Imperial Knight armies running around has reached pretty crazy proportions (according to my FLGS store owner both riptides and Imperial Knights are some of the best sellers currently) and really I just think would be cool to see two armies of monstrous walkers duking it out. Probably will get some flack for saying this but hey if Imperial Armies can have an army of giant walkers why can't we? At least our army won't be able to spam an insane amount of D weapons.

-Fire Warriors get access to special weapons, I loved the Railgun but almost never see it. If Fire Warriors cant get special weapons at least have a special weapon squad that can field them.

-Stealth Suits go down in points.

-Barracuda becomes a flyer choice in the new codex or they fix the current fighter and bomber.

What the actual- you want a BUFF?!
No
no
NO
NEVER.

There is no way in hell that the Tau need yet another round of the buff bandage. You do not need a S9 railrifle, you do not lack long range AT choices - you have Hammerheads and Rapetides enough. You do not need Special Weapon Firewarriors. Apart from being unfluffy it would also break them even more.
And ALL formations need to go. No exceptions.

And as for inexperienced: I first started properly playing in 4th edition, though I did have several small games in 3rd. I have a hell of a lot of experience with this game so dont try to act all high and mighty.

 master of ordinance wrote:
What the actual- you want a BUFF?!
No
no
NO
NEVER.
There is no way in hell that the Tau need yet another round of the buff bandage. You do not need a S9 railrifle, you do not lack long range AT choices - you have Hammerheads and Rapetides enough. You do not need Special Weapon Firewarriors. Apart from being unfluffy it would also break them even more.
And ALL formations need to go. No exceptions.
And as for inexperienced: I first started properly playing in 4th edition, though I did have several small games in 3rd. I have a hell of a lot of experience with this game so dont try to act all high and mighty.

First and foremost stop being so sensitive, inexperienced comment is directed at those who are throwing comments just because they hate Tau and don't provide any facts to back up their statements which, the way you are coming off you are fitting the description. Its not me acting "High and Mighty" as you so claim, its the fact that all that is being stated is plain anger with no facts to back it up. Also:

-Hammerheads are not that great at taking out Heavy Armor without Markerlight Support and even then statistics show that it is not an automatic thing, stop exaggerating the problem. Courtesy of Matt_Kingsley (A Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds)

-Riptides are not as scary as you make them out to be in regards to offensive output, they are durable and I do think the Ion Accelerator needs to go up in points but other then that its perfectly fine the way it is. You complain about the Riptide yet Imperial Armies get Grav spam galore and D weapon heavy Imperial Knights...hmmm.

-How is Fire Warriors having a few Rail Guns unfluffy? The fact of the matter is in a game where fluff is constantly changed and updated it is irrelevant and even then whats stopping them from taking them in the fluff, do you have an example?

-And guess what regardless of your personal opinions Formations are not going anywhere so you might as well start looking at ways with dealing with them instead of demanding for a change that will never happen.

 gmaleron wrote:

-Hammerheads are not that great at taking out Heavy Armor without Markerlight Support and even then statistics show that it is not an automatic thing, stop exaggerating the problem. Courtesy of Matt_Kingsley (A Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds)

While I wish I had posted those statistics, that was actually IXLoiero95XI.
I understand the confusion though, since in the other thread it switched from a short sub-discussion between you and I before switching straight away into a conversation between you, IXLoiero95XI and MoO.

But yeah, Hammerheads are not super-mega-crazy-awesome AT.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
My hatred of Supporting Fire is probably illogical, and I'll admit as such, but by god do I hate it... *grumble grumble*

Not at all, you're absolutely right that it's bullgak and about the reasons why. It encourages castling up in the corner which is not only boring to play with but really frustrating to play against. It needs to go.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And ALL formations need to go. No exceptions.

Yeah, well seeing as how literally every codex release this year has had formations printed in them, I don't see that happening. Nor do I see them reprinting Eldar, Marines, etc. again just to get rid of them for you.