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Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






 Kanluwen wrote:

Players start copy/pasting lists they find on the internet or use tools like Battlescribe without knowing their own books. It's not MY job to review your damn list before we even play a friendly game to make sure you've made a legal list. That's YOUR job.

And because someone cheated you (either through intent or negligence) that we're going to assume FW options don't exist? How would this situation be any different with a book that is either not in stock or you are unfamiliar with?
Maybe a little malice and bias is rearing it's head here.

I know my book and it's supplement. I always had the most recent FAQ printed out (when those were a thing).
Honest question on this part. How is a Tau player less able to describe the flaws with their codex than a non-Tau player or someone that has suspected bias against Tau?

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Players start copy/pasting lists they find on the internet or use tools like Battlescribe without knowing their own books. It's not MY job to review your damn list before we even play a friendly game to make sure you've made a legal list. That's YOUR job.

And because someone cheated you (either through intent or negligence) that we're going to assume FW options don't exist? How would this situation be any different with a book that is either not in stock or you are unfamiliar with?
Maybe a little malice and bias is rearing it's head here.

The "malice and bias" is against people that prefer to use netlists and Battlescribe than actually sit themselves down and figure out a list with pen and paper or a typed up document.

It took me, when I got home, not even FIVE MINUTES to check and see that the FW Riptides do not have access to Farsight Enclave items. Battlescribe, as of the time of my game, allowed them to take it.

I know my book and it's supplement. I always had the most recent FAQ printed out (when those were a thing).

If you know your book and its supplement, then you know that Earth Caste Pilot Arrays are in Farsight Enclave.

R'varna allows for two Support Systems--Positional Array and Stimulant Injectors, while Y'vahras are explicitly prohibited from taking any Farsight Enclaves options.
Seriously:
The Y’vahra Shas’vre may take up to two items from the Support systems list (see Codex: Tau Empire)with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit. This
does not include any of the options presented in the Farsight Enclaves supplement.


Honest question on this part. How is a Tau player less able to describe the flaws with their codex than a non-Tau player or someone that has suspected bias against Tau?

I'm not saying that a Tau player is "less able to describe the flaws with their codex", so don't think that's the case.

However there are players who willingly blind themselves to their own codex by only comparing their armies against "tournament gradings" and other nonsense that don't even apply to them as they won't ever step foot in a competitive environment.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






 Kanluwen wrote:

If you know your book and its supplement, then you know that Earth Caste Pilot Arrays are in Farsight Enclave.

R'varna allows for two Support Systems--Positional Array and Stimulant Injectors, while Y'vahras are explicitly prohibited from taking any Farsight Enclaves options.


Right. And I'm not the person you played against so I really fail to see how any of this applies to me. Battlescribe or whatever allowed the error to be made could be more in part due to negligence. Just like some were unaware that the proposed rules even changed for it that reduced the AP value. The rules are still experimental are they not? From what I'm used to players generally let both sides see their lists, ask questions, and go over what units they may be unfamiliar with.
However there are players who willingly blind themselves to their own codex by only comparing their armies against "tournament gradings" and other nonsense that don't even apply to them as they won't ever step foot in a competitive environment.

I have gone back several pages to and seen the discussion with the people you are referencing and I frankly do not see the issue. They have made decent points in my opinion. The biggest problem being the Riptide, which admittedly could just some adjustments. However there are units that seriously need adjustments just to function. The railgun broadside was a staple in the 4th ed codex and now it's non-existent because of the glancing system. An immobile S8 AP1 just has no place in the army, especially with the buff to solo crisis suits and fusion guns.
There is a unit that has a working variant loadout and another unit that can fulfill a similar role. Does that mean the Railgun Broadside does not need or should not be adjusted? Not at all.
Firewarriors are decent troops, but have always lacked a complimentary transport. Does the Devilfish not warrant a moderate change because some view a pulse rifle as too good?

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

Sidestepping the arguments, my wishlist is:
A signature system for vehicles, a nova core for StrD.
Shas'la at BS2, Shas'ui at BS3, Shas'vre at BS4, and Shas'o at BS5.
Rail weapons for suits,
Stealth suit option for commanders,
One of the ethereal characters to get a jet pack so it can keep up with my suits. (Aun'shi)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 03:47:28


'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

Measuring the effectiveness of the Tau codex by the Imperial Guard codex is ultimately a flawed approach to determining a books's power. While Tau have many flaws of their own, they can at least stand up to many of the new 7th edition codexes. The same cannot be said of the Imperial Guard, currently one of the weakest codexes. Why should an in-game faction be measured by the weakest in-game faction? Personally, I would measure Tau by the current Space Marine codex: Tau are weaker, but still have a few builds and units that are workable. I'm not saying that Imperial Guard players should just ally in from more powerful armies; every army should be able to stand on its own. I am saying that calling for Tau to be nerfed because one codex is particularly weak is a wrongheaded approach.

For me, the biggest thing I want out of the new Tau codex is some internal balance; I'm tired of playing against and watching the same Tau lists fight over and over. Whether you like their aesthetic or not, Tau do have distinctive models. I want the new Tau codex to give players a reason to use mass Kroot, Stealthsuits, Ethereals, Devilfish, Flyers, even Vespids! Look at the Eldar codex; every unit in there is useable and effective (some being too effective) and their formations give great bonuses while reflecting the lore on the tabletop. Why shouldn't Tau get the same level of internal balance?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 01:33:02


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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 carldooley wrote:
Sidestepping the arguments, my with wishlist is:
A signature system for vehicles, a nova core for StrD.
Shas'la at BS2, Shas'ui at BS3, Shas'vre at BS4, and Shas'o at BS5.
Rail weapons for suits,
Stealth suit option for commanders,
One of the ethereal characters to get a jet pack so it can keep up with my suits.


I rather like that, everything minus the BS2 on Shas'la. I think a min of BS3 wouldn't be bad, and I'm fairly sure they're more accurate than orks, guard conscripts and drones

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bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



Atlanta, Georgia

Just a quick note to everyone complaining about Tau being OP. Go check the ATC results that were just posted.

The top Tau player is #23 in the standings. The second is 31. Third is 33, and fourth is 52.

Eldar have 7 of the top 10 spots. Space Marines, Necrons, and Daemons make up the rest of the top 20. Notice all of the new codecies there, and then Daemons, which are just super powerful with the tournament results to prove it.

Tau are not OP. If you can't beat them, then you're just doing it wrong. Tau should be brought into the same power level as the 7th edition codecies. They're balancing around that power level. So Tau clearly need a buff, to reach that level.

EDIT: And as someone who knows the #31 player, go look at his list. It runs 1 Riptide. Everyone bitches and moans about this unit. Notice how it just isn't performing on the level you say it does. The thing is 100% fine. It doesn't need a points increase. If it was as good as all the complaining in here, then the top tier list would be running 7 of them, and placing in the top 10. It's just not happening.

EDIT 2:
The list of things I want personally is pretty deep for Tau. I know I won't get all of it, but I'll throw it out there.

  • More suit commander options. Stealth commanders, the old Shas'el commander, maybe a command Devilfish for mechanized lists.

  • Devilfish being worth their points, or being made cheaper. If you gave them a TL HBC as a turret, that would make them a super cool light tank\transport.

  • BS upgrades available at a reasonable price as a support system for Crisis suits

  • Heavy weapons options for Firewarriors (rail and ion rifles)

  • Pathfinders as troops, and just in general fixing our force org to be less horrific in the FA and HS slots.

  • Hammerheads being worth anything again. Strength D on the railgun would do it, kinda.

  • Decurion style detachments and formations

  • Fixing our fliers to not be god awful. Or just include the Barracuda and I'll be happy

  • Adding the FW riptides to the main book, or just more Riptide variants in general to give them a better feel. Right now they almost solely either hunt fliers or TEQs

  • Broadsides HRR getting buffed. S10 on them wouldn't be unreasonable in this meta. Or S9 lance would be cool, if you want to make it a harder choice between the HYMP, or if you're worried about the flier interaction

  • The +1 T 2+ save armor being available as a general upgrade.

  • Tetras making it into the book

  • Markerlights having a more varied list of things that can be done with them

  • Kroot and Vespids being taken out and shot.
  • This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/27 02:25:05


     
       
    Made in us
    Fireknife Shas'el






    LockeWatts wrote:
    If you can't beat them, then you're just doing it wrong. Tau should be brought into the same power level as the 7th edition codecies.

    Now hold up. You make some valid points, but these two just rub me the wrong way.
    The balance, internal and external in 40K is way skewed worse than it's ever been from what I've seen. Good fluffy units that seem fun can end up being terrible choices and even hurting your army because they're such huge point sinks.
    I wouldn't say people are playing the game wrong, just that GW doesn't know what game they want to make and it is hurting everyone.

    Secondly, there is no real level with the 7th edition books that I see. When 6th first dropped CSM and DA got released and everyone thought that would be a great start to a well balanced game if the trend continued.
    Then Tau and Eldar got released in an environment without grav weapons.

    I can agree that Tau don't need to get struck down while others are rising and falling in unpredictable fashion. But I don't believe for a second the fault relies solely on the players.

    I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

    "The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
    lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
    deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
    -Tom Kirby 
       
    Made in us
    Been Around the Block



    Atlanta, Georgia

    The balance, internal and external in 40K is way skewed worse than it's ever been from what I've seen. Good fluffy units that seem fun can end up being terrible choices and even hurting your army because they're such huge point sinks.


    You're not wrong, but the solution is not to nerf Tau. It's externally imbalanced because GW is rebalancing the power level at a new spot, and until that happens across the board, there won't be balance. That's the point of 7th being at the power level it is. If everything is OP, nothing is.
    Internal imbalance is just because GW wants to sell models, and fluffy models don't always sell. I can't help that, but the solution certainly once again isn't nerfs.

    I wouldn't say people are playing the game wrong, just that GW doesn't know what game they want to make and it is hurting everyone.


    I'm talking in terms of competitive play. Everyone who is complaining about how Tau are unbeatable, it's so unfair, etc etc, that's on them. Tau are clearly beatable, and not even in the "top tier" category. They're squarely in tier 2.

    Secondly, there is no real level with the 7th edition books that I see.


    Tournament results disagree. The 3 new books hold 16 of the top 20 general spots at ATC. They're also the 3 most common armies at the tournament. The other 4 are 2 Daemons players, which used to run the competitive scene, a Nids player (at #20), and a SW player, which have had a scary deathstar that's been tournament competitive for a long time.

    When 6th first dropped CSM and DA got released and everyone thought that would be a great start to a well balanced game if the trend continued.
    Then Tau and Eldar got released in an environment without grav weapons.


    I can't speak to that, I played 3rd 4th and 5th, but skipped over 6th completely. Started playing again at the start of 7th. I missed the days of Tau being king, apparently.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 02:35:15


     
       
    Made in us
    Focused Fire Warrior



    Rockwood, TN

    I'd personally just be happy getting a little variety in the troop choices without having to play FSE (don't get me wrong I love my FSE army), and I'd like to see some actual variety in the HQ section of the army instead of mono build cheap guys and the "buff-mander".

    Riptides do need a point increase to the IA, but the suit itself is well costed; however, the FNP upgrade should function just like it does on the FW suits and not be alowed to save the NOVA wound (I actualy play like this because it makes more sense, balances the unit, and the FW rules really point to that being the intended rule).

    Another "nerf" would be to limit the signature systems to one per model just like the majority of other books have done. This would eliminate the buffmander, and force more varied crisis suit hqs; however, once again that should only be done if they actually put some variety in the HQ section, otherwise the buffmander is a sad nessisty to allow the building of tournament competitive lists.

    My last request would be to see a HRR broadside return to being useful. I run 3 in my lists because I LOVE THE MODEL, but I've never seen them do more than pop a rhino or two, due to the static nature of the unit, before being reduced to sniping off one or two meq models a turn because the big stuff either gets away from them, or they get shot off the board. I can see this happening in a couple of ways, leave them S8 AP 1, and make them TL savlo 1/2 instead of heavy or whatever the combination is that lets them shoot more when they stand still. Make them S9 AP1, and give the model relentless. Or return them to S10 AP1 and leave them as is, and as far as the missle side goes... yeah I don't have a fix for that other than making that a 10 or 15 point upgrade, as the state of the game makes the massed S7 shots far more effective than it should be.

    Just my two cents, I'm sure the haters will dive on me soon.

    Noc

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 05:50:52


     
       
    Made in us
    Trustworthy Shas'vre





    Cobleskill

    for those who have a problem playing against tau, a couple ideas;
    1. play maelstrom. I play suit heavy FSE (so NOT static), and even then the games are CLOSE when playing for points.

    2. If list tailoring is going on, try this: bring 2 or 3 lists to your next game in envelopes. let your opponent choose one after (s)he builds h(is\er) list, then reveal the rest so that it is apparent that they aren't all the same. for further hijinks, have your opponent do the same.

    3. Swap armies. (for a game)

    4. Take some time and actually read the Codexes. There are reasons for, ahem, free sites if you are playing competitively. If you play casually, there should be nothing wrong in borrowing your buddy's books so you can actually read up on what their army can do.

    'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
    'THE ENEMY!!!'
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
     
       
    Made in us
    Locked in the Tower of Amareo




    There's a ton of Tau units that need buffs. So many units I never see used.

    And for the record, there's nothing OP at ALL about the pulse rifle when the scatterbike is running around. Plus, the Devilfish sucks pretty hard too, so that's another kick to the head for fire warriors.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 04:33:03


     
       
    Made in us
    Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




    Missouri

    Martel732 wrote:
    And for the record, there's nothing OP at ALL about the pulse rifle when the scatterbike is running around. Plus, the Devilfish sucks pretty hard too, so that's another kick to the head for fire warriors.


    Too bad our Farseer friend seems to have taken his ball and gone home, because I'm sure he'd have an explanation for why scatterbikes are weak compared to the indescribably OP fire warriors. Or why Eldar armies take almost all the top spots in tournaments but Tau are the real problem.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    Martel732 wrote:
    There's a ton of Tau units that need buffs. So many units I never see used.
    And for the record, there's nothing OP at ALL about the pulse rifle when the scatterbike is running around. Plus, the Devilfish sucks pretty hard too, so that's another kick to the head for fire warriors.

    Believe it or not in my experience the Devilfish is actually still pretty useful, in particular when holding objectives and getting your Fire Warriors to optimal firing positions. Especially when you give it Disruption Pods, stick it in cover and hang out there with the 4 up cover save while pumping smart missiles down range.

       
    Made in au
    Slippery Scout Biker





    I competently disagree with Strength D on Railguns, jesus. If you did do that you gotta boost their points by heaps.

    40k:
    Salamanders - 3500 points
    Inquisition - 500
    30k:
    Salamanders - 4000
    Imperial Militia - 1500
     
       
    Made in gb
    Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






    preston

     Savageconvoy wrote:
     master of ordinance wrote:

    So we are overpowered because we have to ally with with some of the most broken armies out there just to stand a hope in hell against your Tau.

    Instead of making up silly quotes about what I'm saying maybe you could just read what I'm actually saying. IoM has lots of options available to them. The current set up of the allies matrix, psychic phase, formations, and detachments offers far more options to the IoM than Tau. Considering FW options and it leans more in the IoM's favor.

    I said that it is fair to assess an army or unit based off what can be paired with it. Much like you compare markerlights in every Tau unit comparison. Without even talking about a list you make an assumption that there are markerlights available. Why? Because it is an option you fully accept exists. It is a double standard.


    And here you go again, claiming that all IoM armies are the same and that we players of the weaker armies need to just shut up, stop whining and get using that allies matrix already. I mean, we have tons of formations available.... If we actually take the right force. And FW loves us..... But the rules for their IG units where written with 5th edition prices in mind and, well, have you even read book 2?

    And Markerlights and an integral core part of the Tau army. They exist for a reason. You do not have to take a bunch of allies to get them so why should I?


    I should be able to take on a Tau force and have a decent chance of winning, assuming I have not made some utterly idiotic choices with my army. Right now 99% of the time I will lose no matter what I bring. Of course by your reasoning that is my fault for not bringing 2 Knights and a dozen SM squads.

    Not at all. Even without FW options available. I'd have to ask to see a battle report and list composition since a 99% lose rate suggest there may be something noticeably wrong. I know for a fact I could not pull a 99% win rate against IG players in my area if I ever bothered counting. Maybe this is causing a bit of malice and bias on your end.


    After having played Tau a couple of times this is what it feels like. The early turn tabling is laughable.

    Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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    Denmark.

    Tau were my first army, so if they actually do some of these things, Imma switch armies

    Kits:

    *New Crisis Suits: With the raptor legs of the Riptide, underslung weaponry and a general more modern design.
    *New Fire Warriors/New Unit Entry: The Fire Warriors are distincly fine, but could use a bit of work - A bit larger guns, more techy armour, more cultural things like knives, honour bands, heads and things. New unit entry could be whatever, but the more infantry models and entries the better (Veterans, splitting Fire Warriors up into two like Skitarii, so forth).
    *Plastic Ethereal: Ethereals are vastly underappreciated right now - I want more


    Rules:

    *Pathfinders should be split up into two different unit entries: Pathfinders, who have no Markerlight, but get the special weapons and drones, plus Scout and maybe Stealth, and something like the old Pathfinders with the Markerlights. I wanna play sneaky shooty, but not at an increased price.
    *Improve the fliers. Seriously improve the fliers.
    *Cut out a few of the Systems - A bit too much boost, removes weaknesses too easily.
    *I like the idea of letting Supportive Fire make the charged unit flee instead of making a ball of hate - Maybe combine them, disallowing the charged unit to Overwatch.
    *Somehow improve the mechanical stuff, I dunno.
       
    Made in gb
    Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





    London

     TheNewBlood wrote:
    Messy0 wrote:-Stealth Suits to Troop choice. They can stay the same price but make them troops.

    -It pains me to say it but...marker lights at -1 cover

    -no gets hot in HBC, other than that riptides stay the same

    -stealth suit HQ thats not shadowsun or make stealth/shrouded a unique upgrade for commanders.

    -Hammer heads become single shot D weapons. Can be taken in squadrons upto 3.

    -Broadisdes become Heavy 1 TL S10 Ap1. When they changed them to S8 Knights and Wraithknights (as they are now) didnt exist, things have changed and S10 is now really needed again in tau armies.

    - Kroot good at CC, more variations of krrot (or a kroot/merc codex that BB with Tau)

    - Vespid...

    - Paycher race added to tau (maybe in Tau mercs codex, see Kroot)


    - Path finders gain stealth, can take all special weapon upgrades, markerlights as an optional upgrade made troops

    - Devil Fish cheaper and FA/dedicated transport

    - Tank squadrons (Skyray, HH)

    - Flyers that dont suck

    - Tau fortifications (feth the fluff, tau would total build a fortification if necessary

    -relentless on broadsides

    -Sniper drones an optional upgrade to firewarrior squads or stand alone unit

    -Shield and marker drones on tanks

    - New Superheavy suit thats not forgeworld with D weapons!

    - more formations and a Tau decruion(s)

    Other than that our codex is perfect as it is...I dont want much.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Co'tor Shas wrote:
     BlaxicanX wrote:
    The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.

    Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.


    so you want a Riptide with IA with a max BS of 4 (not including the cost of bringing the markerlights themselves) to be 40 points cheaper than a GC with 2 D weapons, ala Wraithknight...your not serious

    I can agree with some of this, but I think some of these suggestions are misguided or go too far.

    1. Stealth Suits don't need to be troops, they need to be cheaper and more versatile.
    2. The Riptide needs a points increase, or changes to the Ion Accelerator. The HBC can lose gets hot though.
    3. I like this idea. Stealth Suit commander or IC could be really interesting.
    4-5. No. The Hammerhead needs submunitions stock (or better ones), not a D-weapon. The problem is the Wraithknight, not that Tau don't have the means of killing one. Also, the reason Broadsides got S8 rifles was because they got skyfire. Give them S10 and there's no reason for anyone to take flyers.
    6. Tau aren't allowed to be good at CC (except for Farsight, who gets to be mediocre). More Kroot options is definitely good though.
    7. Vespid need a massive points decrease and better leadership. Along with a reason to take them.
    8. I can get behind this if it was limited and expensive, like a costlier Primaris Psyker.
    9. Pathfinders as troops I like.
    10. Also a good idea; Tau need all the mobility they can get, and the Devilfish is too costly to provide it.
    11. Squadrons are always good.
    12. Make the current flyers better. I don't know how, but there has to be a way.
    13. Maybe put some of the FW ones in the codex?
    14. Again, moving broadsides would add needed mobility.
    15. I think you want sniper drones to be actually useable. They need a better BS.
    16. Maybe on Devilfish, but I can't see them on tanks; why would you take the Skyray?
    17. But the KX looks so cool!
    18. Formations are the future. No problems there.
    19. I'm up to 19 items. I don't call this a short list...





    thanks for the awesome detailed reply. I'll try and give one back

    1) I think they could go a few ways with stealth suits. Making them troops would be my personal preference. I agree they could be more versatile by giving them more weapon options etc, i just think they would suit perfectly as troops. Im sure there will be a formation that will satisfy both our ideas of what they would be, they seem perfect for a formation.

    2) I personally get a lot more mileage out of the HBC/SMS/VT/EWO Riptide than any IA configuration. IA is generally just good against SM armies TEQ/MEQ and since SM are the most prevalent army the IA get a whole buttload of hate. A slight points increase to the IA will probably happen but the IA its self in a vacuum (without marker support) really isnt that great. Fixing markers will also fix the IA.

    3) We agree, a stealth commander would be awesome

    4-5) I didnt really think of the implications of skyfire and S10. without mass S10 or experimental riptides Tau have a tough time dealing with some of the tougher targets of 7th. I still think HH Rail should be D. If they were to improve the Submissions shot of the Rail HH there would be no place foe the Ion HH.

    6) the Ethos of Tau is to take the best of other societies into the greater good, knowing their own weaknesses i think they would havew found a good CC meatshield race by now, the kroot should be perfect for that. I dont want them to be TH/SS terminators or anything but at least as good as an orkboy etc.

    7) I agree on Vespid, this could be fixed by a formation or special ability like skyleap for the swooping hawks. I personally would fix their Ld and make their guns 18" assault 2 with a slight points decrease and a skyleap bomb when they deepstrike.

    8) agreed

    9) agreed

    10) An alternative to the devilfish would be a smaller open topped transport. This would allow fire warriors to preform drive by's and give the much needed mobility to tau. I could see this being very popular in mobile cadres

    11) agreed

    12) I have no ideas how to make the flyers better, just make the Barracuda a codex flyer and add in the Remora drones with a points decrease( 90 points is silly, 75 i could get down with other than that they are awesome flyers and very Tau)

    13) I would like to see a bunch of forgeworld stuff in the codex, Remora, Barracuda, Forgeworld Riptides, Forts etc. Forgeworld are what make tau good atm

    14) agreed

    15) I definitely want sniper drones to be usable. I think they would be the perfect addition to FW squads (even if they didnt bring stealth), i agree they would need to be at least BS3

    16) Skyray have Skyfire, that's what makes their marker great. Marker or Shield drones of devilfish would help help with utility and suitability

    17) Dont get it wrong, i love the KX...like i really really think its amazing....but its going to be experimental...which means it wont see tournament use for years...look how long the R'Varna and Y;varah have been experimental. Tau need a Super heavy we can use straight out the box without being experimental.

    18) Formations FTW. Tau have so much potential here.

    19) this really wasn't a short list =P

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 11:51:37


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    What i WANT is drones to more or less stay as they are or, even better, a few new options in regard to drones.

    Furthermore some point changes and fixes on units that are not good enough (stealth suits) or too good (riptides?)
    What i EXPECT is something even bigger then a riptide or a new version.

    My own Tau are above all infantry and with drones as main theme. Furthermore i like Kroot.
    Other units are the support/flavour/tuning i need next to the main theme of a lot of drones and kroot, which are superb flexible units. The suport is needed for more anti-armour, because my drones and kroot can deal with all types of infantry and objectives.

    As long as i can keep on playing with lots of drones i am content.

    My ultimate WISH: a drone (or other unit) with haywire weapon to deal with Knights. That's it really.,.


    At the moment i don't find Tau overpowered by the way.
    I just find the few Tau armies i see quite boring (crisis suits and riptides).

    Yes, riptides are quite hard, but they can also be dealt with, sometimes VERY easily and they do not explode with D-weapon impact, so easily dealth with in close combat, unlike Knights.
       
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    commander dante wrote:
    What do you want whenever the new Tau codex comes around?
    What i want:
    Stealth Suit Commander
    Yup
    Farsight to either gain EW, or T5, and can take drone upgrades
    EW or T5, yes. Don't really care about Drones.
    Farsights sword to go back to the old rules (AP2, ignores invuns)
    The Dawn Blade never ignored invulnerable saves. It was ignores armour saves and roll 2D6 to pen vehicles.
    Vespids to have new models and a buff
    Vespids got a slight buff in our current book as well as a price decrease. I just don't think anything will make them a decent choice, or rather one which will be taken over other fast attack choices.
    Battlesuits have a buyable upgrade for 2+ armour (no more limited to 1 2+ in an army)
    This upgrade would have to be pretty expensive to prevent utter cheese. A unit of 2W 2+ models with JSJ is pretty nasty.
    Better Signature Systems
    Our signature systems are pretty good, I think. Multi-spectrum, Puretide, Iridium and C&C are all very good upgrades. The rest are less good but still useful in their own situations (Failsafe Detonator is probably the least useful as you're paying for something to happen once the model is already dead. Was more useful before where it could be used to escape from combat rather than be swept).
    More customization for ethereals
    All they really need is access to Shield Generators to get them a save.
    Stealth suits get the 'hard to hit' rule/constantly affected by Invisibility psychic power/ enemies that target them are WS and BS 1
    If they got this in addition to Stealth and Shrouded then they would be ridiculous.

    Anything you want added whenever a new Tau codex comes out?


    I'll drop my list from a previous thread:
    1) Markerlights back to what they were in the 4th ed book.

    2) Seeker Missiles back to what they were in the 4th ed book (don't need to fire at same target as rest of vehicle shooting but can only be fired using markerlights) with a special rule on the Skyray/fliers allowing it to fire them as normal shooting.

    3) Hammerhead Railgun solid shot gains Ordnance. Change the twinlinked burst cannon back into two separate burst cannons to make it a possible choice rather than an automatic trade for SMS, bring back vehicle target locks to allow split fire. Maybe a very small points decrease. Maybe allow squadrons.

    4) S9 Broadside Railguns. There's no way those monsters should be weaker than a man portable lascannon. T5 for Broadsides with a points increase (back to 70/model or up to 75?). Maybe bring back Advanced Stabilisation Systems, but which grant permanent SnP rather than the switch on/off that it was before.

    5) Points decrease for Stealth suits, would say move them to fast attack but then they'll be competing with markerlights and so still wouldn't get taken (unless we gave markerlights to all stealth suits, rather than just the shas'vre, as a wargear option?). At least in Elites they can see play with a Farsight Enclaves list which doesn't want to use Riptides.

    6) Ion Accelerator loses overcharge profile, range decrease for both the standard and nova-charged profile (maybe to 36"?). Increased upgrade cost. Don't like crutches with my Tau.

    7) Aun'Va gains 8D6 Strength D Hammer of Wrath attacks from his pimp chair, 12" movement, 4D6" run and charge distance and can assault after running. Also gains a 2++ save, Eternal Warrior and 10W. Becomes a Lord of War. Gets points decrease.

    8) Shield Drones gain a special rule allowing them to be nominated as the model making a Look Out Sir! even if they're not the closest model, no roll required.

    9) I would say fix Vespid but I have no idea how. Maybe make the Neutron Blaster a template weapon? Maybe be S4 rather than 5 to balance it out?

    10) Slight points decrease for Devilfish

    11) Farsight gains Eternal Warrior. Maybe some form of wound regen from the Dawn Blade? At the end of the fight subphase if Farsight has slain an enemy with the dawn blade then roll a dice, on a (5+ or 4+ maybe?) he regains a wound. This cannot take him above his starting number of wounds. Can only regenerate one wound per fight subphase. Points increase to incorporate these new rules of course.

    12) Points decrease for Shield Generators, maybe down to 20 each?

    13) Make bonding knives useful for Crisis Teams. Maybe a re-roll to morale tests or something?

    14) Bring back S4 for the Kroot.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/27 12:10:00


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    ORicK wrote:
    What i WANT is drones to more or less stay as they are or, even better, a few new options in regard to drones.


    ...Exploding Drones with an EMP Pulse.

    Deepstrike capable, explodes with a large blast when within 1" of an enemy or destroyed. No other ranged weapons. S9/10 AP3 Ordinance large blast + Haywire. Can be taken in units of 1-12...that would be awesome.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 12:55:15


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     Messy0 wrote:

    Deepstrike capable, explodes with a large blast when within 1" of an enemy or destroyed. No other ranged weapons. S9/10 AP3 Ordinance large blast + Haywire. Can be taken in units of 1-12...that would be awesome.


    Would make the regular tiger shark worth taking for sure if they were able to get access to that Drone.

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     master of ordinance wrote:

    And here you go again, claiming that all IoM armies are the same and that we players of the weaker armies need to just shut up, stop whining and get using that allies matrix already. I mean, we have tons of formations available.... If we actually take the right force. And FW loves us..... But the rules for their IG units where written with 5th edition prices in mind and, well, have you even read book 2?

    You're putting so many words in my mouth it's like your force feeding me a thesaurus. Since you're not arguing against what I'm actually saying, I'll just leave it at that.

    And Markerlights and an integral core part of the Tau army. They exist for a reason. You do not have to take a bunch of allies to get them so why should I?

    So then you do admit that you consider options legally available to units rather than the unit on it's own? Again, a double standard.
    Regardless, markerlights are a unique mechanic. They are put on to weak units with generally poor leadership, expensive, low model count, immobile, and are such a high priority target. Even doing a drone commander build uses up an expensive HQ slot and is still far from invulnerable.
    Generally the answer is pathfinders in separate units because markers do not buff the unit they are in. Unlike psykers or HQ buffs, these units are rather easy to take down. Doesn't IG have anyform of multishot artillery/mortar unit?
    The Tau's "OP" buff mechanic is generally limited to the FA slot and limits bringing other units from that slot, although the only unit worth a damn in that slot is piranhas.
    They cost points and take up slots to bring. They are rather easy to kill.

    After having played Tau a couple of times this is what it feels like. The early turn tabling is laughable.

    Then I have to ask to see your list. Are you running armor in your lists?


    OT I'd like to see Shapers get dropped down to a simple sarge upgrade. I know the fluff makes them a lot more important than that. Facing facts though, they have never had a clue on how to make Shapers interesting or worth taking (even in the Rogue Trader RPG) and just making them able to see play at this point is a step in the right direction. Cost a bit extra, bring leadership up a bit. Done.
    Krootox squads I'd like to see broken off into a fast attack unit like the rest of the Kroot riders used to be.
    Vespid I honestly have no clue about.

    Shield drones need to go back to the way they were or offer some kind of void shield advantage (have to bypass an AV10 shield before unit takes damage) that removes the drone when it goes down. As they are, with the way wound allocation goes there is just no reason to take them over drones that do something.

    IA and Ion Cannon get swapped but with the Riptide keeping the Nova stat for the cannon.

    Stealthsuits should honestly be changed to upgraded pathfinders and take up a FA slot. Give them a toned down burst cannon and a marker system and then tinker around until points and durability are matched accordingly.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/27 14:41:14


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    Cobleskill

    since we seem to be back to wishlisting, how about these 2?

    Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights

    Supporting fire a purchasable upgrade like target lock?


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    Personally I always thought markers should work for the unit unless specifically mentioned it works for other units.

    I was hoping it'd be like a support system, something that costs points and takes up a slot for crisis suits and riptides.
    Like for a certain amount of points a crisis suit squad leader would get a markerlight he can use for his unit alone. For more points he could get a heavy 3 version

    Pathfinders would be not required but still fill a unique role. Putting marker lights on units further down field. That way vehicles and Broadsides would be able to lay down fire from afar rather than having to move up and try to paint a potential target.

    I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

    "The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
    lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
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     carldooley wrote:
    since we seem to be back to wishlisting, how about these 2?

    Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights

    Supporting fire a purchasable upgrade like target lock?



    I really like this because it's not a big nerf against most things, but a significant one versus units with stealth/shrouded that rely on their cover saves.
    I'm not with you on the supporting fire thing however, it's kind of that makes Tau unique, like AM orders.

    Finally, what I'd like to add:
    - Decrease the Str of missile pods (both regular and high yield) to 6.
    - Increase the Str of railguns to 9.

    This would get rid of the "One gun to rule them all" thing Tau currently suffer from. Tweaks to other weapons might be necessary but I feel those would be most important.

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    Heavy rail rifle should be S8 AP1 armorbane, with an additional +1 to the result, AP 0 if you will. You will still probably see all missile pods, but at least I tried.

    The rail gun on the Hammerhead should be straight up Str D.

    "Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights "

    Maybe. With all the jinking units, though, I think 2 lights for ignore cover is fair. Just nerf the IA badly. Ignore cover on other Tau weapons isn't as obnoxious.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 17:57:51


     
       
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     Messy0 wrote:
    thanks for the awesome detailed reply. I'll try and give one back

    1) I think they could go a few ways with stealth suits. Making them troops would be my personal preference. I agree they could be more versatile by giving them more weapon options etc, i just think they would suit perfectly as troops. Im sure there will be a formation that will satisfy both our ideas of what they would be, they seem perfect for a formation.

    2) I personally get a lot more mileage out of the HBC/SMS/VT/EWO Riptide than any IA configuration. IA is generally just good against SM armies TEQ/MEQ and since SM are the most prevalent army the IA get a whole buttload of hate. A slight points increase to the IA will probably happen but the IA its self in a vacuum (without marker support) really isnt that great. Fixing markers will also fix the IA.

    3) We agree, a stealth commander would be awesome

    4-5) I didnt really think of the implications of skyfire and S10. without mass S10 or experimental riptides Tau have a tough time dealing with some of the tougher targets of 7th. I still think HH Rail should be D. If they were to improve the Submissions shot of the Rail HH there would be no place foe the Ion HH.

    6) the Ethos of Tau is to take the best of other societies into the greater good, knowing their own weaknesses i think they would havew found a good CC meatshield race by now, the kroot should be perfect for that. I dont want them to be TH/SS terminators or anything but at least as good as an orkboy etc.

    7) I agree on Vespid, this could be fixed by a formation or special ability like skyleap for the swooping hawks. I personally would fix their Ld and make their guns 18" assault 2 with a slight points decrease and a skyleap bomb when they deepstrike.

    8) agreed

    9) agreed

    10) An alternative to the devilfish would be a smaller open topped transport. This would allow fire warriors to preform drive by's and give the much needed mobility to tau. I could see this being very popular in mobile cadres

    11) agreed

    12) I have no ideas how to make the flyers better, just make the Barracuda a codex flyer and add in the Remora drones with a points decrease( 90 points is silly, 75 i could get down with other than that they are awesome flyers and very Tau)

    13) I would like to see a bunch of forgeworld stuff in the codex, Remora, Barracuda, Forgeworld Riptides, Forts etc. Forgeworld are what make tau good atm

    14) agreed

    15) I definitely want sniper drones to be usable. I think they would be the perfect addition to FW squads (even if they didnt bring stealth), i agree they would need to be at least BS3

    16) Skyray have Skyfire, that's what makes their marker great. Marker or Shield drones of devilfish would help help with utility and suitability

    17) Dont get it wrong, i love the KX...like i really really think its amazing....but its going to be experimental...which means it wont see tournament use for years...look how long the R'Varna and Y;varah have been experimental. Tau need a Super heavy we can use straight out the box without being experimental.

    18) Formations FTW. Tau have so much potential here.

    19) this really wasn't a short list =P

    No problem

    Again, while I can't see Stealth Suits or Crisis Suits as troops, Pathfinders really need to be troops. Like you said, there will almost certainly be a formation that lets people take lots of Stealth or Crisis Suits without having to take troops.

    Personally, I would argue for Lance for Tau railguns. It would prevent the Broadside railgun from making all flyers obsolete, as there are no flyers with more than AV12, and would give the Hammerhead a massive boost to its ability to take out AV13/14.

    My comment about Tau in CC was meant more as a joke. I agree that Kroot should be at least serviceable in CC, as that is what the lore tells us that the Tau use them for. Maybe make their base gun an assault weapon, and give them two CCWs and Furious Charge or Counter Attack.

    People need a reason to take Vespid over other choices; they currently don't do anything the rest of the codex doesn't do better. My vote is for giving their gun Haywire, as that would let them threaten vehicles.

    The Devilfish just needs to be cheaper, maybe 70 points base. I like the idea of a super-piranha as a transport. Maybe a combo-kit with a plastic Tetra?

    Tau Forgeworld is excellent, and it would definitely be good to see more of it made plastic and incorporated into the regular codex.

    I like the idea of Fire Warriors being able to take Sniper Drones, as long as there was also the option to take the Sniper Drones as a separate unit in another FOC slot.

    The R'Varna and Y'Vahra are arguably just as undercosted as the Riptide. I could see them getting a points increase, moved into the main codex, and potentially made a LoW. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Farsight might be moved to a LoW instead.

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    "Personally, I would argue for Lance for Tau railguns."

    Still way too weak for a single shot weapon.
       
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    Cobleskill

    that is one of the things that a nova reactor could do for a hammerhead. Just as it gives a riptide options, it could do the same for vehicles, hence the signature system or upgrade , option.
    What could the nova options be?
    My choices would be:
    StrD for the railing or haywire for the ion cannon or,
    Shoot all weapons twice or,
    Flyer rules for a turn (as well as the ability to enter ongoing reserves) or,
    3+ Cover.

    Yours?

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 00:27:14


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