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" Should Pathfinders really have that kind of firepower?"

Why not? It's 7th ed!

S9 Ordinance HRR?

Seems about right. With Plasma Rifles for extra umpfh and while moving.

I think the broadside rail rifles need a buff to make them a competitive option to missile pods.

And, while I know it'll never happen, riptides should be walkers. Deff dreads and dreadnoughts are closer to MCs than a riptide, as the former are permanently wired into their mechanical bodies, whereas riptides are simply piloted, like, say, IG sentinels.

Wraithlords and knights, by contrast, make sense as MCs. They are a body directly controlled by a consciousness that uses it as its (only) body.

I just want Hammerheads and Vespids to be buffed as to be usable

and

Human Auxiliaries.

Kroot Mercenaries would be awesome too.

Well personally would like to see the Heavy rail rifle go to salvo or rapid fire.

Single shots are terrible. specially heavy ones on a non relentless platform.

WKs are kinda in between due to some really gakky rules, but yeah, Riptides (and DKs) should probably be walkers.

Maybe *gasp* it wouldn't matter if MCs weren't SO MUCH BETTER than walkers.

Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?

Agreed!

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?

wouldn't mind that.

PF should be able to get side shots on all sorts of things

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?

I think those are too strong. A S8 gun with armourbane gets an average armour pen value of 15. Broadsides are twin-linked and so a unit of three without marker support will still get an average of 2 hits. Then on average both of those will penetrate any vehicle in the game and then they're AP1, so +2 to damage chart. Even with D the Hammerhead I don't think the Hammerhead would get taken over that.

As for D on Hammerheads, I just don't like strength D

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?

I think those are too strong. A S8 gun with armourbane gets an average armour pen value of 15. Broadsides are twin-linked and so a unit of three without marker support will still get an average of 2 hits. Then on average both of those will penetrate any vehicle in the game and then they're AP1, so +2 to damage chart. Even with D the Hammerhead I don't think the Hammerhead would get taken over that.

They are RAILGUNS. They are SUPPOSED to be strong. Why limit the game to just a few powerful weapons in the hands of a few codices? Right now, the Tau have two powerful weapons: IA and HYMP. Maybe some of us would like a break in the spam.

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?

I think those are too strong. A S8 gun with armourbane gets an average armour pen value of 15. Broadsides are twin-linked and so a unit of three without marker support will still get an average of 2 hits. Then on average both of those will penetrate any vehicle in the game and then they're AP1, so +2 to damage chart. Even with D the Hammerhead I don't think the Hammerhead would get taken over that.

They are RAILGUNS. They are SUPPOSED to be strong. Why limit the game to just a few powerful weapons in the hands of a few codices? Right now, the Tau have two powerful weapons: IA and HYMP. Maybe some of us would like a break in the spam.

Right but I'd prefer we tone down our overpowered weapons rather than raise everything to their level. Admittedly I may be a minority in that regard but then again I also had the most fun with my Tau army during 5th and early 6th, before the new book, so maybe I'm just a masochist who loves being the underdog.

I already proposed what I think is the best fix for the IA. Range decrease, points increase and loss of the overcharged profile. This means that if it wants to drop a pie plate then it has to nova-charge the gun (and so not have the 3++ shield or 3D6" thrust) and it cannot move in the same turn it fires. This means it has to position itself the turn before it fires, giving the opponent the opportunity to counter it, and also that it cannot drop a pie plate on an interceptor shot.

Could also switch it and the Hammerhead Ion Cannon around so the Hammerhead has the S8 AP2 and S8 AP2 Large Blast on Overcharge and the Riptide has S7 AP3 and S8 AP3 Large Blast Ordnance when Nova charged

Okay, this might seem weird in a time of overpowering everything, but I feel it's important to make sure that some weapons, units or similar are universally feared in the meta. I feel Rail Weaponry should be one of those, alongside Vortex, Shokk Attack Guns and all that.

"Right but I'd prefer we tone down our overpowered weapons rather than raise everything to their level"

Then get used to losing to Eldar. Over and over. Speaking as someone with a "toned down" codex.

" and it cannot move in the same turn it fires"

That actually seems like too much of a nerf. Just make the AP2 mode require NOVA charge and make it more expensive.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, this might seem weird in a time of overpowering everything, but I feel it's important to make sure that some weapons, units or similar are universally feared in the meta. I feel Rail Weaponry should be one of those, alongside Vortex, Shokk Attack Guns and all that.

What's a shokk attack gun? sounds orky.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, this might seem weird in a time of overpowering everything, but I feel it's important to make sure that some weapons, units or similar are universally feared in the meta. I feel Rail Weaponry should be one of those, alongside Vortex, Shokk Attack Guns and all that.

What's a shokk attack gun? sounds orky.

This funny fella:



It can be plenty deadly on the battlefield. To both sides.

Bharring wrote:
And does every thread need to come down to "Waaah, SL bikes beat Marines"?)

Should be more along the lines of " does every thread about Tau have to turn into Waaah Tau are OP but all the awesome stuff in my codex isn't and doesn't need to be brought up"

Back to the original topic:

-I really want to use Rail Rifles but personally I think putting them on Pathfinders is a waste when we have to compete with Marker Lights. I think Fire Warriors should be able to take them either in regular squads or form a special weapon squad of sorts like Imperial Guard.

-Heavy Rail Rifles for Broadsides should become S9 minimum and have some sort of bonus for penetrating vehicles to make them worse taking over Missilesides.

- Having either the Farsight Enclaves book still be legal or a Formation or the ability to take Crisis Suits as Troops in some way.

Fluff reasons say no for fire warrior rail rifles but GW seems to be gaking on there fluff anyway.

Im fine with it on pathfinders as long as they can entice me to actually use it instead of just shooting marker lights. (OMG Tactical decisions in a war game?!?!)

Bharring wrote:
What about the third one?

Armorbane would make the Rail Rifle far too powerful, methinks.

(A 5++ will often be the difference between that pie plate removing the entire unit, and having the most important few models survive it.

And does every thread need to come down to "Waaah, SL bikes beat Marines"?)

Transauranic Arquebus has Armourbane and it's far from OP.

Just copy/paste the profile from it over to Rail Rifle. Boom, done.

It would be nice if the Hammerhead had another ammo options for its Railgun. Solid shot being Str 10 Lance or Armorbane, Submunnition being its normal Str 6 AP4 L blast, a new exploding anti armor round that does D3 hull points on an unsaved penetrating hit and D3 wounds to a model for every unsaved wound while being Str 10 AP2. Let the exploding rounds be for MCs and medium vehicles while the solid shot is designed to be more reliable vs AV13/14.

-Make Stealth Suits cheaper
-Make Vespid ALOT cheaper
-Give Rail weapons lance, or that thing where you roll 2D6 and pick the highest to pen (is that ordnance???)
-Give Pathfinders and Darkstrider Stealth
-Move Sniper Drones to Elites (also bring out plastic versions that don't cost £25 for 4)
-Make Kroot Initiative 4 and Strength 4

The Tau codex is pretty solid as it is. I think with these changes every unit in the codex will be viable.

I'd like to see Darkstrider become an upgrade to a pathfinder Shas'ui, and not take up an HQ slot.

Nocturus wrote:
I'd like to see Darkstrider become an upgrade to a pathfinder Shas'ui, and not take up an HQ slot.

Unfortunately, GW has been moving away from named character upgrades; see Sergeant Telion and Brother Corbulo. I have a bad feeling that Darkstrider is staying as a HQ. Is there anything that could be done to improve him?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Is there anything that could be done to improve him?

The old style of having an HQ unlocking certain units as troops would have been good for this. Take Darkstrider, Pathfinders are troops and you can now make a very interesting army based around a recon unit. Stealthsuits in elite, piranha and fighter/bomber in FA, with Sniper Drones and Sky ray in HS.

Now though, it's tough to say because I believe they want less FOC moving and only care about formations and such. They need to fix the Pathfinders first. The special weapons are too expensive and Darkstrider being thrown in makes them way too juicy of a target.
Easiest fix would be to drop the price of the special weapons down and give Darkstrider a networked markerlight to buff his squad. I didn't really like how he is supposed to go along with Pathfinders but his buff is for offensive firepower. Pathfinders don't really do that too well.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I'd like to see Darkstrider become an upgrade to a pathfinder Shas'ui, and not take up an HQ slot.

Unfortunately, GW has been moving away from named character upgrades; see Sergeant Telion and Brother Corbulo. I have a bad feeling that Darkstrider is staying as a HQ. Is there anything that could be done to improve him?

The problem with Darkstrider is that he is primarily there to give his own unit synergy with his falling back in overwatch and -1T to shooting but he himself costs a whopping 100 points. The biggest squad he can attach to is either 10 pathfinders who would be using mostly markerlights (trying to not be close to the enemy and the markerlights have zero interaction with toughness) or 12 Fire Warriors which is basically the same points cost as he is. For the points you could just take 12 more Fire Warriors and get double the wounds, map control, and something like 50% more killing power (did the math a while ago, can't remember the exact figure). The fall back is decent but when a squad of Fire Warriors cost double the rest of the squads then the enemy tends to shoot that unit first. Being able to fall back in overwatch doesn't really help you when your already dead. Also the benefit of Darkstrider is directly tied to the power of the unit hes with. As they take casualties then his benefit is greatly reduced. Without a unit he is just a highly accurate pathfinder with more wounds and slightly more killy. Also when compared to Fireblade he just costs a lot more while the Fireblade gives similar if not more shooting power.

The next codex needs to completely revamp what he does so there is a purpose to bring him. A heavy points drop isn't even worthwhile unless its cut to something like 50 points but even then its not all that great. He needs to have some durability increase like shrouded for his squad to make their staying power fit the points investment but really his -1T needs to benefit other units shooting at the target instead of just his own unit. That way we could see him going with pathfinders to markerlight things and still benefiting the army with his toughness reduction. When it comes to HQ slots he just needs to have a rule similar to Arjac or Snikrot where they don't take up a FOC slot if there is a particular unit type in the army (most likely pathfinders).

I guess what really annoys me about Darkstrider is that he is a great concept of a character for the Tau, but takes up a slot in the FOC that you just can't afford to give away if you want to be even semi competitive... I still want to stab people who use Farsight and Shadowsun in the same army...

Taffy17 wrote:
-Make Vespid ALOT cheaper

Personally, you could make vespid free and I still don't think I'd field them. Especially since I'd have to buy the models.

They definitely need a lot more than a point reduction to be worth a damn.

The obvious one: Formations
Make Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles a 0-2 special weapons upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Grav-Inhibitor and Pulse Accelerator drones a 0-2 drone upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Heavy Rail Rifle on Broadsides Heavy 2
Increase the Ballistic Skill of Hammerheads to 4
Point reduction on Stealth suits
Something to make Pathfinders better. Increased survivability, better ballistic skills, inflitrate

they could make the rail cannon a weaker version of a D weapon..... If you roll a 6 to wound or Penetrate it becomes a D weapon and roll on the D chart. How about something like that? Tau already have a D railcannon...Its the Heavy rail cannon.