4 marines killed others shot by shooter at multiple locations in Tennessee

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**Jihadin**

It happen at a medical facility though. Like the last place for something like that happen on a military post.
Anyone remember the Towle Stadium shooting on Ft Bragg? En entire Brigade was getting ready for the run when that shooter went active

**CptJake**

Psienesis wrote:
You might be right, I posted that from memory, and knew that several people confronted/attacked Hasan, but don't recall the specifics of who was armed with what and when (though he did shoot a guy with a table? Chair? Something.) Shot Munley, of course. Shot at Todd, and hit him... twice? One might have been a deflection shrapnel wound.

... so, yeah, actually, armed with whatever, Hasan did shoot every armed person to engage him.

No, he did not hit Todd. You are wrong again.

But even if you had ben right (though again, you are not) it would not negate my point at all. Hasan was only stopped by a guy with a gun. Any fire he exchanged with armed responders was fire he was not directing at unarmed victims.

**skyth**

CptJake wrote:
skyth wrote:
Regardless, allowing soldiers to be armed off-base wi create a huge outcry from the type of people worried about the Jade Heln exercises.

Granted, if it was a Republican president there likely wouldn't be any outcry.

When they are in civilian clothes, they CAN be armed off post as is (assuming they have their permit).

Do the tinfoil hat wearing types get upset at this as is?

And do you really think the folks scared of Jade Helm give a rat's ass if the sitting POTUS has an R or a D? If they are the ones you are worried about complaining, I submit that tiny fraction of our population doesn't care R or D.

Considering that the people concerned about Jade Helm had a sitting govenor on their side...I'd say yes, it would matter. The Jade Helm nonsense only spread like it did because it was done during the Obama administration. This would be worse.

Plus arming recruiters wouldn't do much good. I'm sure the shooter identified himself as an enemy before starting to engage as opposed to attacking from ambush. Also, a recruiting office being armed makes it a less inviting place to visit and will hamper recruiting.

**Grey Templar**

skyth wrote:
CptJake wrote:
skyth wrote:
Regardless, allowing soldiers to be armed off-base wi create a huge outcry from the type of people worried about the Jade Heln exercises.

Granted, if it was a Republican president there likely wouldn't be any outcry.

When they are in civilian clothes, they CAN be armed off post as is (assuming they have their permit).

Do the tinfoil hat wearing types get upset at this as is?

And do you really think the folks scared of Jade Helm give a rat's ass if the sitting POTUS has an R or a D? If they are the ones you are worried about complaining, I submit that tiny fraction of our population doesn't care R or D.

Considering that the people concerned about Jade Helm had a sitting govenor on their side...I'd say yes, it would matter. The Jade Helm nonsense only spread like it did because it was done during the Obama administration. This would be worse.

Plus arming recruiters wouldn't do much good. I'm sure the shooter identified himself as an enemy before starting to engage as opposed to attacking from ambush. Also, a recruiting office being armed makes it a less inviting place to visit and will hamper recruiting.

Ummmm, if recruiters being armed would deter someone from signing up for the army I'm not sure they are the kind of person who should be joining the army.

**Psienesis**

CptJake wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
You might be right, I posted that from memory, and knew that several people confronted/attacked Hasan, but don't recall the specifics of who was armed with what and when (though he did shoot a guy with a table? Chair? Something.) Shot Munley, of course. Shot at Todd, and hit him... twice? One might have been a deflection shrapnel wound.

... so, yeah, actually, armed with whatever, Hasan did shoot every armed person to engage him.

No, he did not hit Todd. You are wrong again.

But even if you had ben right (though again, you are not) it would not negate my point at all. Hasan was only stopped by a guy with a gun. Any fire he exchanged with armed responders was fire he was not directing at unarmed victims.

You seem to be the only one thinking I'm trying to negate a point you're making. This is an internet argument, nothing anyone here says is going to change the mind of any other participants.

**CptJake**

Psienesis wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
You might be right, I posted that from memory, and knew that several people confronted/attacked Hasan, but don't recall the specifics of who was armed with what and when (though he did shoot a guy with a table? Chair? Something.) Shot Munley, of course. Shot at Todd, and hit him... twice? One might have been a deflection shrapnel wound.

... so, yeah, actually, armed with whatever, Hasan did shoot every armed person to engage him.

No, he did not hit Todd. You are wrong again.

But even if you had ben right (though again, you are not) it would not negate my point at all. Hasan was only stopped by a guy with a gun. Any fire he exchanged with armed responders was fire he was not directing at unarmed victims.

You seem to be the only one thinking I'm trying to negate a point you're making. This is an internet argument, nothing anyone here says is going to change the mind of any other participants.

When I see someone putting out info I know is false in order to make a point, I try to point out it is false because here on the Net I don't assume everyone reading it will know. I couldn't give a gak about changing your mind, it is folks who don't know better I feel deserve more accurate info to form their opinions.

**Chute82**

Jihadin wrote:
It happen at a medical facility though. Like the last place for something like that happen on a military post.
Anyone remember the Towle Stadium shooting on Ft Bragg? En entire Brigade was getting ready for the run when that shooter went active

I was in the 82nd airborne at that time but was in panama the morning of the shooting. I was in the 505th and the battalion that the guy went nuts on was the 325.

**Jihadin**

LOL
I was in 3/319th at that time. It was nuts. All those guys pouring out over the stadium running for the barracks. The pops we were hearing we attribute to the speakers warming for the cadence tape to play for PT. Then all those guys yelling "shooter shooter"
Word was he was pissed he was not going to get out of JRTC to handle some personal issue.
The BDE XO, Major I believe, was killed being he was the final authority on yes or no for that guy

**Chute82**

Jihadin wrote:
LOL
I was in 3/319th at that time. It was nuts. All those guys pouring out over the stadium running for the barracks. The pops we were hearing we attribute to the speakers warming for the cadence tape to play for PT. Then all those guys yelling "shooter shooter"
Word was he was pissed he was not going to get out of JRTC to handle some personal issue.
The BDE XO, Major I believe, was killed being he was the final authority on yes or no for that guy

I was in Bco 3/505 everybody was calling my mother telling her there was a shooting at Bragg that morning. My parents had to keep telling the, I was in panama. One of the craziest things that happened also at Bragg was those skinheads that executed that Afracian American couple while they where walking down the street. All started when a skinhead in my company was shot by a man after they kicked the lights out of his car. So the skinheads retaliated and killed those two. There where a bunch of skinheads at that time in the 505th. One idiot skinhead in my company had a tattoo of a black man being hung and tried to explain to CID that he was not a skinhead. He had skinhead tattooed on his inside of his lips also. They threw all those skinhead idiots out of the army and cleaned the place up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
JRTC that was always a good time. When had a German lose his M16 somewhere in the woods. Stayed a extra week out there looking for it walking shoulder to shoulder across the box. Found out one of the civilian artillery markers found it and brought it home. That guy got in a bunch of trouble

**Jihadin**

I was made EO at the time of that racial killing
It was a interesting time to have tattoo's

Hate groups have uneasy history with military base

A billboard along the main road into Fort Bragg, N.C., in the mid-1990s read: “Enough! Let’s start taking back America.” Below the slogan was the telephone number for the National Alliance, a white-supremacist group.

Wade Michael Page, who killed six on Sunday at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, must have driven by that billboard dozens of times while stationed at the base back then. It was paid for by an active-duty soldier at Fort Bragg who served as a recruiter for the hate group.

Page was at Fort Bragg in 1995 when two neo-Nazi soldiers from the 82nd Airborne killed a black couple in nearby Fayetteville, according to a former soldier who served with him.

At the time, Page was assigned to a unit that specialized in Latin American affairs. Many members were fluent in Spanish, but Page wanted only to learn German, said Fred Allen Lucas, 43, who served with him in A Company, 9th Psychological Operations Battalion.

Once, while on temporary duty in Germany, Page got drunk and started goose-stepping down the street Nazi-style.

“He started singing Nazi marching songs,” said Lucas, of Bloomington, Ind.

At the time, military policy prohibited active membership in hate groups, but not so-called passive support of their ideas.

The racially motivated murders in Fayetteville exposed a thriving subculture at Fort Bragg, according to a March 1999 article in the Military Law Review.

Nazi flags adorned the barracks of National Alliance sympathizers, who handed out pamphlets on the base. At parties, they played “Third Reich,” a song about killing blacks and Jews. They tied their Doc Martens boots with white laces and wore red suspenders and leather jackets when not in uniform.

“White supremacists have a natural attraction to the military,” the article says. “They often see themselves as warriors, superbly fit and well-trained in survivalist techniques and weapons and poised for the ultimate conflict with various races.”

In the wake of the Fayetteville murders and the Oklahoma City bombing, Congress convened hearings and the Department of Defense commissioned a study on extremism in the military.

The murders weren’t the only evidence of neo-Nazi soldiers at Fort Bragg, according to congressional testimony by Joseph T. Roy Sr., director of Klanwatch, a project of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

In 1991, one soldier from Fort Bragg and one from Fort Campbell, Ky., were indicted on a charge of amassing large amounts of weapons in preparation for attacks on media organizations and other companies owned by Jews and blacks.

In 1992, Fort Bragg was home to a white-supremacist group called Special Forces Underground.

“They combined a racist, antidemocratic agenda with sophisticated technical skills and weaponry,” Roy said. “The combination is extremely dangerous.”

In 1994 and 1995, skinheads were suspected of eight assaults on the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Police suspected soldiers were involved in all of them.

Also in 1995, a man was shot in the chest during a fight between two skinhead gangs near the base. Both groups included members of the military.

The Defense Department investigation, which identified 19 white supremacists at Fort Bragg in addition to the two who killed the couple, likely underestimated the number, John J. Johnson, director of the armed services and veterans affairs department of the NAACP, told Congress.

“It is clear that Fort Bragg has a serious problem,” he said.

As a result of the investigation and hearings, the Defense Department gave commanders more authority to crack down on extremists.

“Department of Defense policy leaves no room for racist and extremist activities in the military. We must – and we will – make every effort to erase bigotry, racism and extremism from the military,” Secretary of the Army Togo D. West Jr. said in 1996. “Extremist activity compromises fairness, good order and discipline, and, potentially, combat effectiveness.”

But the problems at Fort Bragg continued, Defense Department investigator Scott Barfield told the Southern Poverty Law Center in 2006.

In 2004, a Fort Bragg military intelligence officer stationed in Iraq was dishonorably discharged for sending weapons from Iraq to the U.S. Investigators found neo-Nazi literature in his home, according to Barfield.

And in 2006, Barfield discovered a group of more than 50 military skinheads online, some of them from Fort Bragg.

“Today’s white supremacists in the military become tomorrow’s domestic terrorists once they’re out,” Barfield said.

I was in 319th, we had a couple Neo-Nazi's (white lace), KKK card carrying members (at one time a a whole crapload of Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Caucasians were card carrying members due to a piss poor application process)
91-95 was pretty bad to be a member of the 82nd
Then gang members became a thing
Then tattoo checks were implemented. My first tattoo had to be removed being it was assiociated with a Separatist Group in Hawaii (gecko). Either that or leave the Army.
Anything related to Extremists groups, Hate groups, and Gang tattoo's were checked for (we had the damn book of symbols to look for)
We also had the former American French Foreign Legion medic who joined the US Army and was in the 82nd caught some flak for his tattoo's but was dropped
Black Panthers had to be removed or one get removed from the military
Spider web regardless of setting had to be removed
Gecko had to be removed
Gang symbols had to be removed
When in doubt it had to be removed
Nordic symbols had to be removed
We had some Eastern Europeans (Ukranian and Russian) in the 82nd who went through the process after we received subject matter material from FDR
Nazi tattoo's were removed.

Then all flags rather tattoo or hanging had to be removed

**Frazzled**

Apparently there are reports that 1 marine and 1 Navy (officer?) actually returned fire and may have been responsible for stopping the terrorist, despite policy against having firearms. it seems a little confused.

**Hordini**

Frazzled wrote:
Apparently there are reports that 1 marine and 1 Navy (officer?) actually returned fire and may have been responsible for stopping the terrorist, despite policy against having firearms. it seems a little confused.

Have you got any links Frazzled?

Edit - Never mind, I found some. It's possible they might have been on duty, as non-MP and non-LE personnel can be armed while on duty.

**Jihadin**

From all reports it seems LEO nailed him
It would be an interesting situation if a S/M was armed with a personnel side arm on Federal Government propertry and took out the shooter.

**Frazzled**

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/07/21/sources-navy-officer-marine-shot-chattanooga-gunman/30426817/

I cannot vouch for veracity

**Hordini**

According to the Navy Times, it sounds like they were both personal weapons, so that rules out it being the officer or NCO on duty.

**CptJake**

Hordini wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Apparently there are reports that 1 marine and 1 Navy (officer?) actually returned fire and may have been responsible for stopping the terrorist, despite policy against having firearms. it seems a little confused.

Have you got any links Frazzled?

Edit - Never mind, I found some. It's possible they might have been on duty, as non-MP and non-LE personnel can be armed while on duty.

No, recruiters can't legally be armed on duty, and definitely NOT with personal weapons (which these allegedly were.) So you have two rule breakers. Sounds like they at least suppressed the crap bag giving the LEOs a chance to cap him.

And amazingly it would appear they did not cap fellow troopers nor slay any innocent bystanders as I seem to always will be told would happen.

I'll also go out on a limb and bet neither ever had an accidental discharge of their personal weapon while on duty (or they would have been hammered for having the POW and likely not have been carrying that day as a result.)

**Jihadin**

I'm thinking the POW were in their POV. It happen during 1130-1300 right? So that would put the S/M near their vehicles either going to lunch or preparing to go to lunch
POW =Privately Owned Weapons
POV = Privately Owned Vehicle

**Chute82**

Going to some gun shows near Bragg, the neo nazi and kkk would be there recruiting
I remember them ( skinheads in my company) asking me if I was Jewish since I made a comment that my grandfather was Jewish to one of the joes. As far as I'm concerned they where just a bunch of punks, most of them where gakky soldiers that I could out pt any day. I was happy the 82nd cleaned house with those losers.

**Hordini**

CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Apparently there are reports that 1 marine and 1 Navy (officer?) actually returned fire and may have been responsible for stopping the terrorist, despite policy against having firearms. it seems a little confused.

Have you got any links Frazzled?

Edit - Never mind, I found some. It's possible they might have been on duty, as non-MP and non-LE personnel can be armed while on duty.

No, recruiters can't legally be armed on duty, and definitely NOT with personal weapons (which these allegedly were.) So you have two rule breakers. Sounds like they at least suppressed the crap bag giving the LEOs a chance to cap him.

And amazingly it would appear they did not cap fellow troopers nor slay any innocent bystanders as I seem to always will be told would happen.

I'll also go out on a limb and bet neither ever had an accidental discharge of their personal weapon while on duty (or they would have been hammered for having the POW and likely not have been carrying that day as a result.)

I wasn't referring to recruiters, I'm aware they aren't allowed to be armed on duty at a recruiting station. I was thinking of the officer/NCO on duty at the reserve center who could potentially be armed with an issued sidearm. (Which we now know wasn't the case, as they were both POWs, but I didn't know that when I made my original post)

**CptJake**

Got it!

I don't think many duty officers/NCOs are armed (unless they are guarding some facility that requires it like a SCIF or AHA (where classified is held/worked on or ammo is stored). Those examples and a certain flight line we had to guard are the only times I saw duty personnel armed CONUS.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Quick question, how does being armed stop people from "surprise" shooting you as it were? (not sure about the technical jargon).
I assume that as a would be shooter, I'm going to be shooting first and worrying about the consequences later.

**CptJake**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Quick question, how does being armed stop people from "surprise" shooting you as it were? (not sure about the technical jargon).
I assume that as a would be shooter, I'm going to be shooting first and worrying about the consequences later.

It doesn't. If you are unlucky enough to be the target of the first shots and the shooter is accurate you're fethed.

What it DOES do is allow you to react to a shooter (this guy did not hit with every shot, let alone his first shots) and defend yourself and others.

Additionally there is at least some deterrent effect though it is obviously hard to quantify. Often the types of gak bags that commit these acts purposely seek out soft targets (or approach harder targets in a way to negate their ability, like the guy that came up behind the two cops and capped them http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941 ). If they know there is a possibility your would-be target(s) are armed and will fight back, they pick different targets. That is why recruiting stations and recruiters are attacked and not the front gate of a major military installation (like Bragg or Hood). The guards at the front gates have cover and the ability to shoot back. Recruiters do not.

**Jihadin**

If everyone been at Campbell back in the days the Main Gate was a frequent target by gang members driving down 41A at night

**CptJake**

There is a difference between a drive by (not generally an attempt to cause real casualties) and the type of attack this guy did (especially at the second location where the casualties were). Drive-by tend to be geared towards intimidation/earning 'rep' for your gang than geared towards actually killing people (though clearly some poor bastard can end up getting hit).

Having said that, I remember when I was at Hood when gangs were a big deal and some fethers did a drive by in an on post housing area and capped some poor major carrying groceries into his house (he was not 'targeted' specifically, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.)

**Ghazkuul**

I remember in Afghanistan the haji's would do drive by's on our base in Toyota Corollas!

sometimes they would stop about 600-900 yards out and pull a Mortar out of the trunk, fire 2-3 rounds and drive like hell back into the bazaars nearby. This worked pretty well for about 3-4 weeks. The last time they tried this we had some Snipers from 3/4 on base with Sassers and...yeah. When you see your brother get domed by a .50 you usually decide to find a new job.

**BaronIveagh**

Ghazkuul wrote:
I remember in Afghanistan the haji's would do drive by's on our base in Toyota Corollas! sometimes they would stop about 600-900 yards out and pull a Mortar out of the trunk, fire 2-3 rounds and drive like hell back into the bazaars nearby.

I bet even there the tube was more valuable than the Corolla. In the old days, the IRA would rig up these Stalin's pipe-organ looking jobs inside the boot of a car with between five and twenty tubes. All linked to an electric timer. They'd park the car someplace inconspicuous near the target, adjust the tubes, and then walk away. Timer runs down, and opens fire.

**Ghazkuul**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Ghazkuul wrote:
I remember in Afghanistan the haji's would do drive by's on our base in Toyota Corollas! sometimes they would stop about 600-900 yards out and pull a Mortar out of the trunk, fire 2-3 rounds and drive like hell back into the bazaars nearby.

I bet even there the tube was more valuable than the Corolla. In the old days, the IRA would rig up these Stalin's pipe-organ looking jobs inside the boot of a car with between five and twenty tubes. All linked to an electric timer. They'd park the car someplace inconspicuous near the target, adjust the tubes, and then walk away. Timer runs down, and opens fire.

No cars in afghanistan are expensive, the tubes are actually fairly cheap because of the surplus left over from the Russians, the Iranians supplying from the west and Pakistan supplying from the east.

They do something similar right now, except instead of mortars they rig up 107mm Rockets with kitchen timers and then flee so when we tried to retaliate they were long gone, that one we never figured out how to counter.

**Inquisitor Lord Bane**

So this is cool, me thinks.

People in open carry states are guarding recruitment posts because they can't defend themselves. They scooped some Chick-fil-A on the way, good choice

**Sinful Hero**

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
So this is cool, me thinks.

People in open carry states are guarding recruitment posts because they can't defend themselves. They scooped some Chick-fil-A on the way, good choice

I love it.

Although they could get pinged for loitering if they weren't hired, and the cops weren't in a good mood.

**Grey Templar**

Depends on if they could get official recognition of volunteer status. Then I think they wouldn't be loitering.