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In 7th, if you are in area terrain/ruins and you fire on a model that's in the open. Does the in the open model get a cover save?

Big can of worms.

The page in the RB that has orks pictured, a few behind ruins, some in the open and the others in a crater ...

We're only concerned with the orks behind/in the ruins. The rule's text says, "In ruins, get a cover save", the picture shows orks in the ruin's basing, behind a wall & rubble, and the caption says, "obscured by the ruins" all 4+. So "in" or "obscured" ?

Another thread recently went through this, with one poster saying the caption's text wasn't relevant.

This is, once again, one of GW's notoriously goofy, grey areas.

Generally, I'd call:

a. the shooter, right on the edge, peering over a window = no cover
b. the shooter, more than 2 inches in, and there's actual intervening posts, wall, rubble, etc, then yeah, 4+
c. the shooter, on top of a level, looking down on the target, = no cover

When playing fast-paced, like in tourneys, I've managed, with my opponent, to agree to play the incorrect ruling, agree to play the (possibly) correct ruling and some times something in between.

I think, as long as you and the opponent agree before hand then you're fine.

I'm pretty sure Brothererekose didn't really read your post, but anyway the simple is answer is that no, a model in the open being fired upon by models in terrain such as ruins would not get a cover save, unless it was actually obscured by the ruins or any other intervening terrain.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I'm pretty sure Brothererekose didn't really read your post, but anyway the simple is answer is that no, a model in the open being fired upon by models in terrain such as ruins would not get a cover save, unless it was actually obscured by the ruins or any other intervening terrain.

This.

If the model is sufficiently obscured, it will get a cover save. If it's in the open, it won't.

There is no cover save just for shooting through area terrain in the current edition (or the last couple, either, for that matter), unless the target is actually in the terrain. Models outside the terrain who are completely visible through it get no cover save.

 insaniak wrote:
... Models outside the terrain who are completely visible through it get no cover save.

Page citation, sir?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
... Models outside the terrain who are completely visible through it get no cover save.

Page citation, sir?

Quit being a smart ass. The context of the post is clearly relating to OPs post.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
... Models outside the terrain who are completely visible through it get no cover save.

Page citation, sir?

Quit being a smart ass. The context of the post is clearly relating to OPs post.

I'm not being one, CrownAxe. If you don't like my post, hit the triangle of friendship. Also:
a. Insaniak is a MOD and can take care of himself. He knows me from many posts and he'll be fine in providing a page or not. Or scolding me for calling him 'sir' and asking for a reference to his argument.
b. 'sir' implies respect. So does that smiley emoticon, being 'nice'.
c. none of my response to you nor him is intended as sarcasm or meant negatively.

That said ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I was working on this. How would you guys call it?



3 Chaos dudes are in trouble, Meltagun Edward, Autogun Frank, and T-shirt Gary.

Here, I think it's obvious M.E. is in deep poo, and won't get any Cover Save from most of the marines' shots. The Missile Launcher however, has a big piece of terrain between them, enough to obscure M.E. at least 25%, even though he's in the open.






T.G. is clearly in the terrain and will get 5+ (rubble).

Now, A.F. is not in terrain. But he's 25% obscured by the intervening terrain.





Page 37, Determining Cover Saves:
" ... the target model's body is at least 25% obscured ... that model receives a cover save."

And here, I'd grant A.F. a cover save, from the meltagun marine and the other two. The PlasmaCannon marine might just be able to see over enough of the rubble to deny that 25%.

You do need to read the OPs question again though.

His situation has shooters in cover and targets in the open

Cover saves are also granted if the model is at least 25% obscured from the point of at least one firer rather than each individually.

 jokerkd wrote:
You do need to read the OPs question again though.

Read it thrice and four times, thanks.

 jokerkd wrote:
His situation has shooters in cover and targets in the open

Which the PlasmaCannon and LasCannon are.

Looking at *just* his scenario does not address all the shades of grey that cover saves can be.

And Cover Saves, every game, require a model's eye view at least once or twice. Right?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
His situation has shooters in cover and targets in the open

Which the PlasmaCannon and LasCannon are.

Except your scenario has a a target not in the open, so it's not relevant.

+1 quit being a smart ass.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
His situation has shooters in cover and targets in the open

Which the PlasmaCannon and LasCannon are.

Except your scenario has a a target not in the open, so it's not relevant.

+1 quit being a smart ass.

Meltagun Edward is in the open.

Looking at each Chaos model as an individual target/unit, you have pretty much all the scenarios represented.

Honestly, I'm not being a S.A. I'm just trying to be certain that *I* know Cover Saves correctly, and that my opinions, observations and calls on the rules are gonna match up. Thus an illustration.

So, guys, how about less ad hoc, and more, "Well, M.E. is clearly toast from all marines ... "

Because not one of you has actually cited rules, instead of just telling me to reread the OP and how to behave.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Looking at *just* his scenario does not address all the shades of grey that cover saves can be.

There are no shades of grey involved in answering the question that was actually asked.


Models need to be either sufficiently obscured, or inside area terrain in order to get a cover save.

Models outside of area terrain who are not obscured do not.



For everyone else, a little more 'addressing the argument' and a little less 'addressing the poster's motives' would be helpful.

That's probably because we evidently give you more credit than we should.

'Determining Cover Saves' in the shooting phase rules.

 insaniak wrote:
Models outside of area terrain who are not obscured do not.

This. I completely agree. Thanks, Insaniak.

A nice simple statement, but I felt the need (and had the time) to show an illustration.

@Breazeal

I honestly hope my efforts helped.