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So I was spectating a game at my FLGS, and the rules issue came up, asking if you can drop bombs after you jink (example: interceptor).

I say yes, because bombing is counted as a separate different type of attack, and not a shooting attack, therefor not affected by snapshots.

However, the majority of my group decided to houserule against it, saying "in the spirit of the game", I was against this because bombers don't need the nerf, as most are already sub par.

So whats your opinion dakka,

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Bombing is a type of shooting attack and therefore is affected by the effects of jinking

its not a shooting attack. It happens in the movement phase, and doesn't say anything about shooting in the "bombing runs" section, just center a blast and scatter d6

I'm still trying to find something definitive either way (so far it looks ok)

just thought i'd point out that on the turn they arrive, flyers can drop bombs before interceptor is fired, so can't force jink before the bomb was dropped anyway

From Weapons > Type:

Type
A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found below) measure a weapon’s portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending on whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.

Bombing Runs ARE Shooting Attacks, no matter when they happen. Nor does Jink only affect the Shooting Phase.

really?

thats a good point.

But I thought interceptor happens first thing in the shooting phase

 gummyofallbears wrote:
really?

thats a good point.

But I thought interceptor happens first thing in the shooting phase

Interceptor is last thing in the movement phase.

oh, I thought it was the first. Thanks, thats what you get from learning how to play 40k from battle reports lol.

ok, thanks.

If i remember correctly though you are allowed to bomb invisible units, so even if snapshotting i think that bombing is not affected (could be wrong).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, i did some search on this and what i found here and in other forums is not conclusive. It is unclear if Bombs are shooting weapons. Mostly the 2 important quotes from the BRB for the 2 arguments are (not quoted literally):

"Unless otherwise stated a weapon with range - is a meele weapon. If range is a number, a template or a hellstorm template then the weapon is a shooting weapon"

Bombs have - and are stated as being a special kind of weapons, so this seems to imply that they are neither shooting nor meele weapons, but a third type of weapon.

On the other hand you have:

"Example of shooting weapon types are: Assault, Heavy, Barrage, Bomb, Salvo..."

This seems to imply the contrary, by listing the bomb weapons under the examples of the shooting weapons.

Interceptor happens at the end of the movement phase. You would do your bomb drop during the movement of the model. There for a bomb would be dropped before your opponent has a chance to fire interceptor.

Also, bomb runs are a special kind of shooting attack as the follow all rules for shooting with two exceptions. First, they can only be dropped on units that you fly over. Two, they do count as firing a weapon already for the shooting phase. Three, the flyer is allowed to shoot at a different unit than what was bombed.

I was under the impression bombs are not shooting attacks. They don't use BS do they? Just have to fly over a target during the movement phase and say that who is being bombed. I would agree bombers really don't need a nerf. Bombs Away!

 Glitcha wrote:
Also, bomb runs are a special kind of shooting attack as the follow all rules for shooting with two exceptions. First, they can only be dropped on units that you fly over. Two, they do count as firing a weapon already for the shooting phase. Three, the flyer is allowed to shoot at a different unit than what was bombed.

Here is where you are wrong.
First, BRB says it's a "special kind of attack" not a "special kind of shooting attack".

Second, It follows NONE of the rules for the shooting rules:
-The selection of the target unit is different
-Rolling for scatter is different (weapons doesn't scatter 1D6 unless there is a special rule, and they subtract the BS from the scatter, unless there is a special rule, like indirect fire for barrage)
-It does not require to be in range or LoS (I know there are weapons that specify they don't require LoS, but is not the normal rule for shooting)
-Wounding and Allocation is treated from the centre of the marker as barrage (so is the DS Mawloc but that doesn't make it a Shooting attack)

Wallur wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Also, bomb runs are a special kind of shooting attack as the follow all rules for shooting with two exceptions. First, they can only be dropped on units that you fly over. Two, they do count as firing a weapon already for the shooting phase. Three, the flyer is allowed to shoot at a different unit than what was bombed.

Here is where you are wrong.
First, BRB says it's a "special kind of attack" not a "special kind of shooting attack".

Second, It follows NONE of the rules for the shooting rules:
-The selection of the target unit is different
-Rolling for scatter is different (weapons doesn't scatter 1D6 unless there is a special rule, and they subtract the BS from the scatter, unless there is a special rule, like indirect fire for barrage)
-It does not require to be in range or LoS (I know there are weapons that specify they don't require LoS, but is not the normal rule for shooting)
-Wounding and Allocation is treated from the centre of the marker as barrage (so is the DS Mawloc but that doesn't make it a Shooting attack)

Actually, you are incorrect, let me quote the rule again.

From Weapons > Type:

Type
A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found below) measure a weapon’s portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending on whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.

Bombing Runs ARE Shooting Attacks, no matter when they happen.

-So what if the selection of the target unit is different? There are rules that mess with this all the time. And it does not state that it is no longer a Shooting Attack.
-Rolling for Scatter is not really that different. Only the range of the Scatter is different. And if you don't think the Bomb Type is a special rule of some kind, you are blinding yourself.
-It actually does require to be in range or LOS, just not at the beginning of a movement or at the end. Flying over a unit will definitely provide range and LOS requirements needed.
-So Barrage makes a weapon not a Shooting Attack? Wow, so the Wyverns aren't affected by Invisibility anymore, yay.

Ok Ok, you right.

But I never said Barrage makes a weapon not a shooting attack, I said allocating wounds like barrage weapons (from the centre of the marker)doesn't make it a shooting attack.
Saying that bombs are not always marked as barrage.

Bombs have the Blast special rule, and Blast can never be used via snapshot. So if you are snapshotting for whatever reason, you can't bomb.

Wallur wrote:
Ok Ok, you right.

But I never said Barrage makes a weapon not a shooting attack, I said allocating wounds like barrage weapons (from the centre of the marker)doesn't make it a shooting attack.
Saying that bombs are not always marked as barrage.

The implication was that the Barrage Wounding Rules do not follow Shooting Attack rules, and so doing, are not Shooting Attacks. They actually do, it just changes the point of reference when dealing with "the nearest".

Charistoph wrote:

Wallur wrote:
Ok Ok, you right.

But I never said Barrage makes a weapon not a shooting attack, I said allocating wounds like barrage weapons (from the centre of the marker)doesn't make it a shooting attack.
Saying that bombs are not always marked as barrage.

The implication was that the Barrage Wounding Rules do not follow Shooting Attack rules, and so doing, are not Shooting Attacks. They actually do, it just changes the point of reference when dealing with "the nearest".

No, I said that wound allocation from the centre of the marker following the barrage method does NOT imply it's a shooting attack; not that ALL wound allocation from the centre of the marker imply it's NOT a shooting attack.

Anyway, if it's a shooting attack, also this part of the rule for Snap Shots deny using it:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

The point is indeed in deciding if it is a shooting attack or not, you have one section of the rules telling you that is not and one telling you that it is.

If it's not a shooting attack it can snap blast at will, after all you can vector strike while jinking and that too is an attack that isn't using ballistic skill (and VS is not close combat).

Spoletta wrote:
The point is indeed in deciding if it is a shooting attack or not, you have one section of the rules telling you that is not and one telling you that it is.

If it's not a shooting attack it can snap blast at will, after all you can vector strike while jinking and that too is an attack that isn't using ballistic skill (and VS is not close combat).

Well, Bomb Run, uses a weapon, in difference to Vector Strike that uses the Model Strenght.. But well, it would look like it's a shooting attack after all.

Also, non related, if I Bomb Run and Vector Strike, I get to choose which is resolved first since both happen at the end of the Movement phase and it's my turn, right?

Correct, you decide the order of events.

The rule you are looking for is called Sequencing, it is one of my favourite actually, and is found in the The Turn section of the book. It highlights how to determine the order of events if two Rules trigger at the same time, using 'start of movement phase' as the example. I find it hilarious that the Rule states that it is a 'occasional' occurrence, given how often we use this Rule without even realizing we are doing so. So many things happen 'simultaneously' on the time-line, not just things with end/start of phase wording, that we will always use this very rule in nearly every phase of the game.

Spoletta wrote:
The point is indeed in deciding if it is a shooting attack or not, you have one section of the rules telling you that is not and one telling you that it is.

No one has quoted anything to indicate it isn't a Shooting Attack.

Charistoph wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The point is indeed in deciding if it is a shooting attack or not, you have one section of the rules telling you that is not and one telling you that it is.

No one has quoted anything to indicate it isn't a Shooting Attack.

Wallur did. He quoted it as a special kind of attack, and pointed out it's not a special kind of shooting attack.

To which you quoted all shooting attacks have the following types-

Which is not the same as saying the following types are always shooting attacks.

All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs.

I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying what he said hasn't been contradicted yet.

Breton wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The point is indeed in deciding if it is a shooting attack or not, you have one section of the rules telling you that is not and one telling you that it is.

No one has quoted anything to indicate it isn't a Shooting Attack.

Wallur did. He quoted it as a special kind of attack, and pointed out it's not a special kind of shooting attack.

To which you quoted all shooting attacks have the following types-

Which is not the same as saying the following types are always shooting attacks.

All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs.

I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying what he said hasn't been contradicted yet.

Well besides the fact that technically thumbs are not fingers....yes he has been contradicted. Per the quoted rule, all bombs are shooting attacks, but not all shooting attacks are bombs.

Then someone misquoted it? The quote said all shootings attacks have a type-

Type
A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found below) measure a weapon’s portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending on whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.

Nowhere does the rule state only shooting attacks have these types. In fact I see one of them right now that makes attacks in close combat i.e. melee.

Breton wrote:
Then someone misquoted it? The quote said all shootings attacks have a type-

Type
A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found below) measure a weapon’s portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending on whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.

Nowhere does the rule state only shooting attacks have these types. In fact I see one of them right now that makes attacks in close combat i.e. melee.

What?

Please show one instance of a non-shooting attack having one of the listed profiles.

Pistols in close combat.

Breton wrote:
Pistols in close combat.

Which use a different profile that does not have the pistol type.

No, they have the pistol rule, which makes them count as close combat weapons with a different profile. But they're still pistols.

And you still haven't shown that all bombs are always shooting attacks, let we get sidetracked. They may well be, but your chosen rebuttal did not establish that, and as such your dismissive and definitive categorical claim no one has said otherwise was poor form and at least currently incorrect.

Breton wrote:
No, they have the pistol rule, which makes them count as close combat weapons with a different profile. But they're still pistols.

And you still haven't shown that all bombs are always shooting attacks, let we get sidetracked. They may well be, but your chosen rebuttal did not establish that, and as such your dismissive and definitive categorical claim no one has said otherwise was poor form and at least currently incorrect.

So where does the Bomb rule state it is not a Shooting Attack like the Pistol's count as Melee weapon?

Just because it states it is special does not mean that it is no longer Shooting.

So where does the Bomb rule state it is not a Shooting Attack

Not my contention, however Wallur made this point-

First, BRB says it's a "special kind of attack" not a "special kind of shooting attack".

That is (currently- pending further rebuttal)a viable and valid distinction not contradicted by the single directional logic argument about weapon types.

Just because it states it is special does not mean that it is no longer Shooting.

The point wasn't that it's no longer shooting but that it was never called shooting (in the bombing run rule?) to begin with.

My contention is that he made a valid point, the counter point did not actually contradict him, and he deserved more credit than an argument by dismissal. He may or may not be right, but his point deserved the respect of any one else's that hasn't been disproved.