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If you really believe the Rule titled Type, that exists to explain what the Type section of the Weapon Profile represents, does not apply to weapon profile's containing the type: Bomb
There you go. Now you understand the straw man concept.
I really believe that a rule saying "shooting weapons have 1+ of X" does NOT say that "anything with 1+ of X is automatically a shooting weapon".
I believe a rule defining Ultramarines are primarily blue doesn't make a Dark Angels Librarian an Ultramarine.
And I believe this not because of a non-Rule related anecdotal argument but based on the rules of logic, reason, set theory, and language.
JinxDragon wrote: I'm not going to bother continuing.
If you really believe the Rule titled Type, that exists to explain what the Type section of the Weapon Profile represents, does not apply to weapon profile's containing the type: Bomb... all because an single non-Rule related anecdotal argument... then nothing we post here will ever convince you that you are incorrect.
The example just isn't that great. Technically - and that's the only kind of "right" for Raw - he is right.
Another analogy(since that is what you call these I believe ) :
Identifying vehicles
Cars can be one or more of the following types: Fast, four wheeled, aerodynamic, fuel powered, electric.
You argue now that both a fighter jet and a truck are cars since one is fuel powered, the other is both fast and aerodynamic. Possibly a vibrator since it's electric,although we lack a proper definition of vehicles in general to make sure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/21 22:22:23
If this Rule does not inform us what is and is not a Shooting Weapon, can you quote the Rule that does?
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
Actually, the poorly worded Rule explaining the Range section of the profile does contain a criteria that can determine if something is a 'shooting weapon.' If you really wanted to Rule Lawyer it, and this is the right forum to do so, I would focus more on that little fact. Simply stating the failure to meet any of the criteria listed within this Rule is enough to dismiss it as a Shooting Weapon should be enough to create the ambiguous you are looking for in the Type Rule. This might leave some weapons in an ambiguous state, the good old Bomb being the most obvious but there are others, but these 'broken Loopholes' are why I can't look away from the train-wreck that is Game Workshop Rules and why I came to this forum in the first place.
Of course, this makes it a puzzle why the Authors decided to put a number of shots after the Bomb, as only Shooting weapons have permission to fire multiple shots. That would mean the number of shots is as meaningless on a non-Shooting Weapon as Twin-Linked is. Nor does it make sense for Bombs to be listed along side other Shooting Weapons within the Ranged section of every Codex, instead of within the Melee Weapon section where anything with Range - would clearly belong by the Range rule. There are many other possible broken Rules that no longer apply to Bombs under this interpretation, even some Restrictions that may be nice to get around, so I will leave others to explore the possibilities.
I will however like to bring up another problem with the Ranged Rule defining what a Shooting Weapon is.
There are a handful, a very small number, of Weapon Profiles with the Range of Infinity. Unless you conclude that infinity is a number, then it will never meet the criteria of a Shooting Weapon either. If you have some time to research if the word infinity is a number or a concept, I really recommend running the question through google as mathematician have some interesting things to say about infinity and how it is not a number at all. This could be very beneficial for some Weapons, though I don't really know how it would off the top of my head, but it defiantly will cause problems with any Rule that single out Shooting Weapons such as "Select Another Weapon." Guess the lesson to be had is simple: Make sure you fire the Weapon with the range of infinity first.. as any weapon can be nominated for the initial shot but only Shooting Weapons can be nominated for any sequential Shots.
In any case, this makes me happy as all Game Workshop screw-ups always do!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/22 16:47:51
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
I think both sides of this are right and wrong. They correctly identified rules that shows that bombs are not shooting weapons and that they are instead shooting weapons.
The point is that there is no solution here, it's not a matter of finding the correct meaning of the rule. There is a mistake in the rules, a clear contradiction.
Just follow this:
"A bomb is a special type of weapon reserved to Flyers and FMC....they must be used in a special attack called bombing run"
The first part seems to say that they indeed fall into the range "-" weapons and are specified as a "Special type of weapon".
Also "Shooting weapons can only be used to perform shooting attacks" but bombs "they must be used in a special attack called bombing run", so by definition bombs cannot be ranged weapons.
And yet: "Shooting weapons must be of the following types:....bombs..."
There is no way out, it's a plain contradiction inside the BRB. How can it say that a shooting weapon can be a bomb when by definition it violates the basic rule of shooting weapons that they can only perform shooting attacks, while bombs have a special attack.
Spoletta wrote: How can it say that a shooting weapon can be a bomb when by definition it violates the basic rule of shooting weapons that they can only perform shooting attacks, while bombs have a special attack.
Altering the general rules is what special rules do.
As a general rule, ranged weapons can only be used a specific way.
Bombs, as a specific type of ranged weapon, have special rules that alter the way they function from to be different from other ranged weapons.
That's not a contradiction. It's how rules are supposed to work.
- Bombs are always listed under Ranged Weapons, they are ranged weapons (codex and BRB).
- Bombs don't make shooting attacks, they make a special kind of attack called Bomb Run, here the special rule overlaping the general rule of "Ranged weapons make shooting attacks"
- Rule for Snap Shots says:
any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"
Since Bombs are NOT shooting attacks (although they are ranged weapons) they can still be used
-But also in contradiction
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots..
Since Bombs ARE Weapons, and have the Blast special rule, it can't be fired as snap shots. Unless "Bomb Runs" means bombs are not "fired". In that case, this rule won't apply.
HIWPI dropping a bomb is basically the same as "firing" a bomb - it's just not what you call it when you pull the trigger. If you can't fire a cannon, you can't drop a bomb. In both cases you gotta pull the trigger at the right momement and you're otherwise too occupied/distracted/distraught to do so properly. Since the game doesn't want to increase the scatter, you're simply unable to use the weapon.
RAW might or might not allow it, but I'd lean toward the "it actually allows it" - but only because the rules are worded incredibly poor. A few VERY minor changes to the rules would've turned the entire thing around and my best guess is that the RAI is "no, you cannot" and RAW turned out as it is simply due to really poor wording choices.
nekooni wrote: HIWPI dropping a bomb is basically the same as "firing" a bomb - it's just not what you call it when you pull the trigger. If you can't fire a cannon, you can't drop a bomb. In both cases you gotta pull the trigger at the right momement and you're otherwise too occupied/distracted/distraught to do so properly. Since the game doesn't want to increase the scatter, you're simply unable to use the weapon.
Actually, it's very different from firing a cannon, it requires much less aiming... It's more like "Pass by and let it drop", you aim the inertial force of droping something from a vehicle in movement. Of course, if you are maneuvering to avoid fire, it'll be quite difficult to pass by the point you want to let the bomb drop, and since we are talking about zooming or swooping, even spining 360° may put the drop door on top instead bottom at the momento they pass through the point you want to drop it.
nekooni wrote: RAW might or might not allow it, but I'd lean toward the "it actually allows it" - but only because the rules are worded incredibly poor. A few VERY minor changes to the rules would've turned the entire thing around and my best guess is that the RAI is "no, you cannot" and RAW turned out as it is simply due to really poor wording choices.
I agree to that, but since the discussion was about RAW, I focussed on that.
Actually, it's very different from firing a cannon, it requires much less aiming... It's more like "Pass by and let it drop", you aim the inertial force of droping something from a vehicle in movement. Of course, if you are maneuvering to avoid fire, it'll be quite difficult to pass by the point you want to let the bomb drop, and since we are talking about zooming or swooping, even spining 360° may put the drop door on top instead bottom at the momento they pass through the point you want to drop it.
Not really though - the only real difference is that a bomb is "dropped" and a cannon shell is "fired" - the difference is that one gets imparted only a slight vector (letting go and maybe some kind of mechanism to propel it out of the bomb bay) and the other one gets imparted a massive vector (due to propellant). But if you fired a shell from a barrel downwards from a plane, it would be easier to hit something since the flight time would be much shorter (since the projectile would fly much faster). Dropping the same shell (which basically makes it a bomb) and hitting something is much harder.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/22 13:34:27
It seems much more of a stretch to assume that a bomb is not, in fact, a shooting weapon that can only make shooting attacks than it does to assume a bombing run is a special kind of shooting attack
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
jokerkd wrote: It seems much more of a stretch to assume that a bomb is not, in fact, a shooting weapon that can only make shooting attacks than it does to assume a bombing run is a special kind of shooting attack
Its no stretch at all. Its basic logic. As Brenton keeps trying to point out that fact that a shooting weapon can be a bomb, does not mean that all bombs must be shooting weapons.
What he have here is two rules:
"A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo.
and
"A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks."
If we change this up to more familiar terms:
"An American citizen always has one of the following blood types: A, B, O or AB."
"An American citizen can only drive pick-up trucks and wear cowboy hats."
Its no more a stretch that a weapon with the bomb type is not a shooting weapon and as such is not limited to only making shooting attacks, then it is a stretch that Akira Kurosawa (blood type B) was not an american citizen and was not limited to only driving pick-up trucks and wearing cowboy hats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 01:04:59
jokerkd wrote: It seems much more of a stretch to assume that a bomb is not, in fact, a shooting weapon that can only make shooting attacks than it does to assume a bombing run is a special kind of shooting attack
Its no stretch at all. Its basic logic. As Brenton keeps trying to point out that fact that a shooting weapon can be a bomb, does not mean that all bombs must be shooting weapons.
What he have here is two rules:
"A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo.
and
"A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks."
And I kept asking him to tell me where it says when they are not, but he kept refusing to actually answer it. It's not enough to just say, "not all bombs must be shooting weapons", one must demonstrate when they are specifically stated as not.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
jokerkd wrote: It seems much more of a stretch to assume that a bomb is not, in fact, a shooting weapon that can only make shooting attacks than it does to assume a bombing run is a special kind of shooting attack
Its no stretch at all. Its basic logic. As Brenton keeps trying to point out that fact that a shooting weapon can be a bomb, does not mean that all bombs must be shooting weapons.
What he have here is two rules:
"A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo.
and
"A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks."
And I kept asking him to tell me where it says when they are not, but he kept refusing to actually answer it. It's not enough to just say, "not all bombs must be shooting weapons", one must demonstrate when they are specifically stated as not.
Sorry, but that's not how the rules work. 40k is a permission based ruleset which means that unless it is clearly stated that "You can do X" or "Y is a thingy of type Z", it isn't: So you(!) have to come up with the rule that says what kind of weapon Bombs are, not the other way around - because if no rule exists, it's not defined as you claim.
How to have an intelligent rules debate wrote:"The rules don't say I can't!"
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 07:27:25
How to have an intelligent rules debate wrote:"The rules don't say I can't!"
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
Actually there is. You can only use models that are in play on the table. To enter play it is specified there are only 3 ways to do so: Deployed at the start of the game, Reserves, Ongoing reserves.
Models in the table that do not entered from reserves/ongoing reserves or were deployed at the start, are not in play, even though they are on the table.
Back to bombs and jink.
Bombs May be Ranged weapons... but still, I think they are not shooting attacks. Look at these rules:
Psychic Phase wrote:-Witchfire powers are shooting attacks -A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units (including Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures) within the psychic power’s maximum range, regardless of line of sight, being locked in combat, intervening models/terrain and so on. Otherwise, a nova is treated like a shooting attack
Shooting Phase wrote:-NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT: During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.-
-any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot
-A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.
Charge Sub-Phase wrote:-To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:
• First, pick one of your units, and declare which enemy unit it wishes to charge.
• Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see below).
• Once Overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and, if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit – this is sometimes called ‘launching an assault’.
1) Shooting attacks made outside the Shooting Phase are clearly specified to be Shooting Attacks. (witchfire, overwatch)
2) Overwatch are a special kind of shooting attack, while Bomb Runs are a special kind of attack never mentiones Shooting.
3) as everyone said:
-shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks general rule.
-Later we have: "Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run."
So, Unlike other Shooting weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase (no shooting Phase) in a special kind of attack (no shooting attack, not specified to work as a shooting attack)
So we have the particular rule of Bomb Runs Being Special kind of attack GO OVER the general rule of all shooting weapons being shooting attacks.
EDIT: 1) so Nova Psychic powers CAN'T be "fired" as snap shots, because except for targeting, they are treated as Shooting Attacks, so it's a shooting attack that does not use BS (due to auto hit) (If the psyker has gone to ground, can't use nova 'cause units that have gone to ground can only fire snapshots)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/23 13:52:30
How to have an intelligent rules debate wrote:"The rules don't say I can't!"
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
Actually there is. You can only use models that are in play on the table. To enter play it is specified there are only 3 ways to do so: Deployed at the start of the game, Reserves, Ongoing reserves.
Models in the table that do not entered from reserves/ongoing reserves or were deployed at the start, are not in play, even though they are on the table.
Not my own example, I just quoted the article that quite frankly everyone should read. It's a sticky in YMDC.
But hey, lets do this if you're calling me out anyhow: where did you find that rule? provide actual proof, please. And what about summoning? Those models come from entirely outside the game straight onto the table, don't they?
You're right on account of the whole permission-based spiel, of course - but you just made the claim that you wouldn't need it in that instance, didn't you?
There is a Rule that defines what a shooting weapon is: If it contains a number, or ‘Template’ or ‘Hellstorm’, it is a shooting weapon. - Range, Weapon Section
Of course, this is the same poorly written Rule that defines Bombs as 'Melee Weapons' even though they are always found in the 'Ranged Weapon' section within each Codex. This leads me to conclude that the Authors don't have a solid grasp on what they want 'Bombs' to be. The - is likely there to simply prevent us from using it during the shooting phase as any other Ranged Weapon, given all bombs are always in the Ranged Weapon section, as that represents a 0 and ensure the weapon is always out of Range. Thanks to the clause within the Rule explaining what the Ranged section of the profile means:
Bombs are Melee Weapons that have permission to be the initial shot in a Shooting Attack, since Select Another Weapon singles out Shooting Weapons, but will never be able to be 'shot' due to a Range of 0.... Luckily, they lack the Melee Type so they do not fall under the clause that prevents them being used outside of Close Combat!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/23 15:00:22
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
Conjuration wrote:When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes
There you are, Summoning are treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes, so, for the rule purpose of entering play, they are treated as entering from Reserves via DS.
But I give you that right now I don't know if there is or is not a rule in the BRB that specifies you have to use models that entered play via Deploy/Res/OngRes, I'll have to read ALL the BRB again for that.
But let's stop the off topic, we can discuas via PM if you want.
Back to the Bomb-Jink, I have just showed Why the rules SAY IT IS NOT a shoooting attack, not that the rules DON'T SAY IT IS a shooting attack. There is no permission to think it is or it is not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: There is a Rule that defines what a shooting weapon is:
If it contains a number, or ‘Template’ or ‘Hellstorm’, it is a shooting weapon. - Range, Weapon Section
Of course, this is the same poorly written Rule that defines Bombs as 'Melee Weapons' even though they are always found in the 'Ranged Weapon' section within each Codex....
Bombs ARE shooting weapons, are listed in the section "ranged weapons of the 41st Millenium", also in the section of "Ranged Weapon" in the Shooting Phase of the BRB and is listed with the Ranged Weapos of each codex. But Already covered that:
Myself wrote:
3) as everyone said:
-shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks basic rule*.
-Later we have: "Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run." Advanced rule*
So, Unlike other Shooting weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase (no shooting Phase) in a special kind of attack (no shooting attack, not specified to work as a shooting attack)
So we have the particular rule of Bomb Runs Being Special kind of attack GO OVER the general rule of all shooting weapons being shooting attacks.
Advanced rule: "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
The Advanced Rule for Bomb and Bomb Run, that override the basic rule "shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/23 15:00:13
Wallur, I recommend starting a new thread on the Out Of Play issue.
As for the Ranged Weapons = Shooting Weapons... please tell me you have a Rule quote that shows these two terms are identical from a Rule as Written perspective. While I agree that Game Workshop is using Ranged and Shooting interchangeably within the Rules, that is nothing more then 'Rule as Intended' and I focus mostly on the Rule as Written within this forum. That is why I stated we needed to make some concessions when I pointed out that they where all in the Ranged Weapon section of each codex, as I lacked a specific Rule stating that Ranged Weapons are Shooting Weapons outside of 'common sense...' which means nothing from a Rule as Written perspective.
If you can push that interchangeability into 'Rule as Written' I would be so very happy, I would love for another layer of 'Game Workshop dun ****** up' to this whole situation!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/23 15:13:47
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
jokerkd wrote: It seems much more of a stretch to assume that a bomb is not, in fact, a shooting weapon that can only make shooting attacks than it does to assume a bombing run is a special kind of shooting attack
Its no stretch at all. Its basic logic. As Brenton keeps trying to point out that fact that a shooting weapon can be a bomb, does not mean that all bombs must be shooting weapons.
What he have here is two rules:
"A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo.
and
"A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks."
And I kept asking him to tell me where it says when they are not, but he kept refusing to actually answer it. It's not enough to just say, "not all bombs must be shooting weapons", one must demonstrate when they are specifically stated as not.
Sorry, but that's not how the rules work. 40k is a permission based ruleset which means that unless it is clearly stated that "You can do X" or "Y is a thingy of type Z", it isn't: So you(!) have to come up with the rule that says what kind of weapon Bombs are, not the other way around - because if no rule exists, it's not defined as you claim.
How to have an intelligent rules debate wrote:"The rules don't say I can't!"
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
So why do you keep breaking the rule by saying something isn't when something says it is without actually backing it up? We have something that says it is a Shooting Weapon, or at least, one of the Types of a Shooting Weapon, which is tantamount to the same thing until we are told otherwise. At no point have we been told in a general sense that it is NOT considered a Shooting Weapon, nor the Bombing Run is NOT considered to be a Shooting Attack. Yet, you keep insisting on it.
Wallur wrote:3) as everyone said:
-shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks basic rule*.
-Later we have: "Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run." Advanced rule*
So, Unlike other Shooting weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase (no shooting Phase) in a special kind of attack (no shooting attack, not specified to work as a shooting attack)
So we have the particular rule of Bomb Runs Being Special kind of attack GO OVER the general rule of all shooting weapons being shooting attacks.
Advanced rule: "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
The Advanced Rule for Bomb and Bomb Run, that override the basic rule "shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks"
Just because something is listed as "special" doesn't necessarily mean that it no longer qualifies as the original type, either. Bombing Run never tells us that it is NOT a Shooting Attack. It's specialness is based on how it processes its target and other special rules added in.
In essence, you just saying it is not, when no rule actually specifies that it isn't.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Until it says that you can no one will be using blast templated while snap shooting against me. Anyone who argues they should be able to is the exact kind of player who sucks to play against but I'd let them because there is no point in arguing and I'm probably going to win anyway
There is nothing in the book that says in anyway that it is anything but a shooting attack.
The only reason it is special is because they way you resolve targeting combined with using a blast scattering 1 d6 i unique.
Since it can be a shooting attack and is never stated as being able to be used as anything else than you can only use it as a shooting attack unless somewhere granted permission to use it another way like with the pistol If it has different modes you can still only know the modes you are aware of. Or are you going to declare you are using the bombs "special kind of attack" profile instead of its "bomb shooting attack" profile. When you do that could you please make sure to classify they type of attack and be specific so I know it's legal for you to use it
If you can't logic that out though you probably aren't good enoguh to win anyway so it really doesn't matter
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/07/23 15:31:54
Wallur wrote:3) as everyone said:
-shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks basic rule*.
-Later we have: "Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run." Advanced rule*
So, Unlike other Shooting weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase (no shooting Phase) in a special kind of attack (no shooting attack, not specified to work as a shooting attack)
So we have the particular rule of Bomb Runs Being Special kind of attack GO OVER the general rule of all shooting weapons being shooting attacks.
Advanced rule: "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
The Advanced Rule for Bomb and Bomb Run, that override the basic rule "shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks"
Just because something is listed as "special" doesn't necessarily mean that it no longer qualifies as the original type, either. Bombing Run never tells us that it is NOT a Shooting Attack. It's specialness is based on how it processes its target and other special rules added in.
So why do you keep breaking the rule by saying something isn't when something says it is without actually backing it up? We have something that says it is a Shooting Weapon, or at least, one of the Types of a Shooting Weapon, which is tantamount to the same thing until we are told otherwise. At no point have we been told in a general sense that it is NOT considered a Shooting Weapon, nor the Bombing Run is NOT considered to be a Shooting Attack. Yet, you keep insisting on it.
In essence, you just saying it is not, when no rule actually specifies that it isn't.
Because you can't make shooting attacks outside shooting phase unless stated otherwise. The examples of shooting attacks that CAN be made in other phases than shooting phase are:
-Witchfire (that are stated as being shooting attacks during the Psychic Phase)
-Nova (that actually ARE witchfire, subtype Nova, and it also specifies to treat it like a shooting attacks for all rules purposes besides Targeting, also during Psychic Phase)
-Overwatch (the rule also states it's a SPECIAL KIND OF SHOOTING ATTACK, during the Assault Phase)
JinxDragon wrote: Bombs are Melee Weapons that have permission to be the initial shot in a Shooting Attack, since Select Another Weapon singles out Shooting Weapons, but will never be able to be 'shot' due to a Range of 0....
Bombs runs happens during the movement phase, not the shooting phase.
Usually there are no attacks during the movement phase, unless a rule state it happends during it, in the BRB it mentions 2 attacks:
-Vector Strike. Since it uses the Flyer/FMC profile, would you say it's a nude melee attack that are resolved with the creature profile? Can a Flyer/FMY that has to make only snap shots do a Vector Strike Attack?
-Bomb Runs: That the book states it's a SPECIAL KIND OF ATTACK. if they would meant it was a shooting attack, they would copy-pasted from Overwatch: SPECIAL KIND OF SHOOTING ATTACK.
Since no attacks are made during movement phase, those attacks have no type at all (nor shooting, nor CC ) so, if meaning they are "special kind of attack" must keep the original type of attack, it's a Special kind of NO TYPE attack.
Vector Strike: When Swooping or Zooming, this model may savage its prey. At the end of the Movement phase, nominate one enemy unit not locked in combat that the model has moved over that turn.
Bombing Run: To make a Bombing Run, a Flyer must be Zooming; a Flying Monstrous Creature must be Swooping. Move the model that is making the Bombing Run, and then nominate one model that it passed over. Place the blast marker for the Bomb so that the central hole on the marker is over the target model, and roll a scatter dice.
JinxDragon wrote: As for the Ranged Weapons = Shooting Weapons... please tell me you have a Rule quote that shows these two terms are identical from a Rule as Written perspective
No, there is no actual quote rule that says "shooting weapons are ranged weapons"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 16:00:05
Wallur, If a weapon fails to meet the 'Shooting Weapon' definition put forth within the Rules, and does not have another Rule stating it is a shooting weapon, how do we prove it is a shooting weapon?
Will admit the Must within the Bomb Rule itself does limit it to just the Movement Phase, stupid thing to overlook but I am excited over how broken this situation may actually be. The logic behind it was to show that the two are used interchangeably within the Rules themselves, even if it would be nothing more then Rules as Interpreted as nothing cements it in Writing. This is because first step to making a shooting attack is to nominate a Unit with a 'Ranged Weapon,' and the third step is to simply select 'a weapon...' it is only when we reach the Select Another Weapon stage that 'Shooting Weapon' becomes a requirement!
All it takes is the weapon being in the Ranged Weapon section of a Codex to allow the nomination of the Unit to start a Shooting Attack and, lacking a specific restriction against it's use, to carry out the initial shot. If Bombs are not shooting weapons, but are Ranged Weapons in every Codex, this shows that Game Workshop has created a possible loophole to be exploited and needs to be extra careful to prevent Rule Lawyering shenanigans. They have made it entirely possible, through Game Workshop simply failing to add a 'Must be used out of the Shooting Phase' Rule to one of these weapons, for a non-shooting weapon to be used in a shooting attack!
MAAADNESSS!
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/07/23 16:44:36
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
Bombing is a "special kind of attack", opposed to a "special kind of shooting attack".
We can't go around applying tags to rules without a reason, the same way we can't say that vector strikes are melee.
If i had a +2s to melee attacks would you concede me that bonus on vector strike? I wouldn't cause vector strike is never tagged as melee.
If i could twin link my ranged attacks would you allow me to twin link that blast? I wouldn't, the bombing run is not tagged as a ranged attack.
Yes, I agree that this rule is requires more information.
Another example: Can the target of the bomb use Jink? same discussion, if Bomb is a shooting attack, there is no reason not to use Jink vs the Bomb.
In my opinion, there is more evidence to declare it NOT a shooting attack. Already said why, plus the "-" range, that someone mentioned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 17:06:53
jokerkd wrote: It seems much more of a stretch to assume that a bomb is not, in fact, a shooting weapon that can only make shooting attacks than it does to assume a bombing run is a special kind of shooting attack
Its no stretch at all. Its basic logic. As Brenton keeps trying to point out that fact that a shooting weapon can be a bomb, does not mean that all bombs must be shooting weapons.
What he have here is two rules:
"A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo.
and
"A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks."
And I kept asking him to tell me where it says when they are not, but he kept refusing to actually answer it. It's not enough to just say, "not all bombs must be shooting weapons", one must demonstrate when they are specifically stated as not.
Sorry, but that's not how the rules work. 40k is a permission based ruleset which means that unless it is clearly stated that "You can do X" or "Y is a thingy of type Z", it isn't: So you(!) have to come up with the rule that says what kind of weapon Bombs are, not the other way around - because if no rule exists, it's not defined as you claim.
How to have an intelligent rules debate wrote:"The rules don't say I can't!"
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.
So why do you keep breaking the rule by saying something isn't when something says it is without actually backing it up? We have something that says it is a Shooting Weapon, or at least, one of the Types of a Shooting Weapon, which is tantamount to the same thing until we are told otherwise. At no point have we been told in a general sense that it is NOT considered a Shooting Weapon, nor the Bombing Run is NOT considered to be a Shooting Attack. Yet, you keep insisting on it.
The rules first have to say that Bombs are indeed a Ranged Weapon ("all Bomb type weapons are shooting/ranged weapons") in order to rescind that permission later (eg "even though it is X, it counts as Y in this instance").
The rule quoted says that something that is a shooting/ranged weapon has always one of the following types <insert List including Bomb>.
This is very much the same as the statement "A car always has an engine powered by one of the following types: gasoline, kerosine, hydrogen, liquid gas or electricity.".
While this is true (let's keep exceptions out of the discussion to keep it simple), it simply does NOT mean that every vehicle that has an engine powered by electricity automatically is a car. It could be a plane for all we know.
I've not seen a line that says "Bombs are always ranged or shooting weapons". All you've provided was "All shooting / ranged weapons must be of types X,Y or Bomb" - which is different.
Or did I overlook a rule quote at some point that did say otherwise?
It does not matter if bombs are a shooting weapon or ranged weapon or melee.
It matters if they are a shooting attack.
They are not a shooting attack, bombing runs do not happen during the shooting phase, and we are not told they are a shooting attack or counts as a shooting attack, e.g. = overwatch, psychic witchfires, some few powers like deathmarks out of turn shooting attack.
That bombs may have a weapon type does not make bombing runs a shooting attack.
If bombs were a ranged weapon, bombing runs would still not be a shooting attack, and the end result would only be that you could use bombs during the shooting phase in addition to any other time they were allowed as a shooting attack during that time. How that would resolve is a different highly crazy topic.
tldr- bombing runs are not shooting attacks, therefore it does not matter what type of weapon bombs are.
nekooni wrote:The rules first have to say that Bombs are indeed a Ranged Weapon ("all Bomb type weapons are shooting/ranged weapons") in order to rescind that permission later (eg "even though it is X, it counts as Y in this instance").
The rule quoted says that something that is a shooting/ranged weapon has always one of the following types <insert List including Bomb>.
This is very much the same as the statement "A car always has an engine powered by one of the following types: gasoline, kerosine, hydrogen, liquid gas or electricity.".
While this is true (let's keep exceptions out of the discussion to keep it simple), it simply does NOT mean that every vehicle that has an engine powered by electricity automatically is a car. It could be a plane for all we know.
I've not seen a line that says "Bombs are always ranged or shooting weapons". All you've provided was "All shooting / ranged weapons must be of types X,Y or Bomb" - which is different.
Or did I overlook a rule quote at some point that did say otherwise?
Again, we have them referenced as a Type of Shooting Weapon. Yet to be presented is how they are not. Range does not always qualify, as that rule states. So, I can show a Bomb is a Shooting Weapon until we are told otherwise.
You have presented a poor example in this case. The game has 2 types of Weapons, Shooting or Melee. They must fall in to one or the other. It is not Melee, and it is referenced as a type of Shooting. If the only types of Vehicles in existence were Cars and Horses, you would have a case, but such is not the situation here.
blaktoof wrote:It does not matter if bombs are a shooting weapon or ranged weapon or melee.
It matters if they are a shooting attack.
They are not a shooting attack, bombing runs do not happen during the shooting phase, and we are not told they are a shooting attack or counts as a shooting attack, e.g. = overwatch, psychic witchfires, some few powers like deathmarks out of turn shooting attack.
That bombs may have a weapon type does not make bombing runs a shooting attack.
If bombs were a ranged weapon, bombing runs would still not be a shooting attack, and the end result would only be that you could use bombs during the shooting phase in addition to any other time they were allowed as a shooting attack during that time. How that would resolve is a different highly crazy topic.
tldr- bombing runs are not shooting attacks, therefore it does not matter what type of weapon bombs are.
The Phase something happens does not disqualify it from happening. Both Interceptor and Ethereal Interception just simply state that the models fire their weapons in the Movement Phase, and yet never specifically mention making Shooting Attacks.
So, therefore, Bombs are a Shooting Weapon Type, and we are not told that it is anything else. Shooting Weapons only make Shooting Attacks. Bombing Runs are a special kind of Attack, but never noted as not being a Shooting Attack. The fact that is performed in the Movement Phase instead of the Shooting Phase is irrelevant to the discussion, as Shooting Attacks can happen in every Phase of the game from the beginning of Turn 1 when permission is stated, and it is so stated in the Bombing Run rule.
TL;DR: We do not have permission to treat Bombs as anything but Shooting Weapons, and as such, do not have permission to treat Bombing Runs as anything but a very modified Shooting Attack.
Therefore, until evidence is presented that specifically states that Bombs are not Shooting Weapons or that the Bombing Run is NOT a Shooting Attack, it is affected by situations requiring the possessing model to Snap Fire, and the target can declare a Jink against it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 18:24:15
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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