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So, I have a slight problem with CSM and Daemonkin, in that I cannot find any rules that prevents KDK daemons from joining marines of whatever mark in the CSM book. Examples that would be nice, could be Herald on Juggernaut with Loci joikning CSM Nurgle Bike squad for Majority Tough 6 and a Loci for Rage, Hatred or Adamantium Will.

The normal restrictions for this are in the Daemonic instability rules, but since they are gone in KDK, why not?

You are correct and its not an error. Daemonkin is a different dex (and maybe even a hint of changes to come idk).

dethric wrote:
So, I have a slight problem with CSM and Daemonkin, in that I cannot find any rules that prevents KDK daemons from joining marines of whatever mark in the CSM book. Examples that would be nice, could be Herald on Juggernaut with Loci joikning CSM Nurgle Bike squad for Majority Tough 6 and a Loci for Rage, Hatred or Adamantium Will.

The normal restrictions for this are in the Daemonic instability rules, but since they are gone in KDK, why not?

That'd actually be really cool.

If this is actually true, a Nurgle Biker deathstar with that fancy Axe being wielded by a Kinlord.

I just looked into all 3 books (Daemons, CSM & KDK) and the example you listed seems legit, which is unfortunate since is should never be allowed.

What prevents IC from "cross pollenating" in the CSM and Daemons books is indeed the Instability rule, which prevents units from joining or being joined by units unless both units have Instability. Both books also prohibit mixing gods within a unit.

KDK, however does not have Instability (all Daemons are Fearless instead) and since only Mark of/Daemon of Khorne is listed in the codex, the game designers left out the note about not mixing with other Marks of/Daemons of. It is probably assumed that if you are using the KDK book, you are only playing Khorne stuff.
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So in essence, you can put a KDK Herald on Jugger in a CSM Nurgle bike. Is it broken? Not even close, too many points for a non-CC escort for a CC HQ, but your opponents will still dislike it.

 Galef wrote:

So in essence, you can put a KDK Herald on Jugger in a CSM Nurgle bike. Is it broken? Not even close, too many points for a non-CC escort for a CC HQ, but your opponents will still dislike it.

The escort could be nurgle spawn, which is more CC, and can handle hordes quite good. Still gives a good majority toughness and high speed.

For extra fun though, take a 5-brute formation and make the escort unit Tzeentch or unmarked with a Tzeentch Sorc, now let your Tzeentch Sorc (who is protected by a Khorne herald) cast Boon of Mutation on the Boss-brute, and watch your opponent double cringe from a vehicle gaining things like Eternal Warrior and +1 Toughness, or maybe even a 6+ Armour save. (Of course, most of the results would result in nothing, but it is still kind of fun).

 Galef wrote:
Both books also prohibit mixing gods within a unit.

Ok, so in the CSM codex your not able to mix gods in a unit. Then what is allowing Khorne units from KDK to join with CSM non-Khorne units?

I was under the impression that unit restriction work both ways.

There are two ways to align chaos units - Demonic Alignment and Marks of Chaos. Demonic Alignment applies on all Demon units, Marks of Chaos applies or can be applied on mortal (ie non-demon) units.

You cannot mix Demonic Alignment within a unit.

You cannot mix Marks of Chaos within a unit, though a marked IC may join a non-marked unit and vice-versa.

Those two rules are independent of each other, meaning you can mix Demonic Alignment and Marks of Chaos. However, Codex: Chaos Demons effectively prevented this from ever happening by having another rule, 'Demonic Instability', which prevented units with this rule (which is every unit in Codex: Chaos Demons) from joining a unit without this rule (which was every unit in Codex: Chaos Space Marines) or vice versa.

Khorne Demonkin units do not have the Demonic Instability rule, meaning they are free to join up with other Battle Brother units as per normal. However Chaos Demon units still have the Demonic Instability rule, meaning both CSM and KDK units still cannot join CD units.

lliadon wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Both books also prohibit mixing gods within a unit.

Ok, so in the CSM codex your not able to mix gods in a unit. Then what is allowing Khorne units from KDK to join with CSM non-Khorne units?

I was under the impression that unit restriction work both ways.

There is a note in the CSM book that says ICs cannot join units with a different Mark, but does not say a unit cannot mix Marks. Either way, this note is absent from the KDK book. This means that KDK IC's can join ANY units they are BBs with, unless that units prohibit it (via Instability, etc). Even though common sense would say that CSM: Mark of Khorne and KDK: Mark of Khorne should be the same, reality says you cannot take a rule from one book and apply it to another. That would be cheating.

This doesn't mean that a CSM IC, lets say a Tzeentch Sorcerer can join a KDK unit of Berserkers, since the Tz Sorcerer is bound by the Mark rule for ICs. It DOES mean that a KDK Chaos lord can join a CSM unit of Thousand Sons, since the Chaos lord is not bound by the Mark rule.----And yes, I know this is dumb

Even dumber is the fact that the Mark rule for ICs, only applies to Marks, not 'Daemon of". So that CSM Tz. Sorcerer on disc from the example above CAN join a unit of KDK Fleshhounds (getting a 3+ or better Deny the Witch)

I guess it depends on how you deal with character A joining B versus B joining A. Since there is nothing in the KDK codex preventing a khorne lord from joining a tzeentch marked or squad or forming a unit with a tzeentch IC or joining a unit that has such an IC attached already. But what happens with the Tzeentch IC once the KDK IC joins a unit with him? It is a similar situation to a crimson slaughter IC with Prophet of the voices.

However, the heralds don't have marks, so there is no problem with them. either way. The only problem I see is with the mobility of the herald. They're either on foot or on a juggernaut. But for what its worth, they can deepstrike with the juggernaut.

So no turbo boosting or jumping over terrain, which limits their use sligthly for bikes, but it's still pretty nice.

Roknar wrote:
I guess it depends on how you deal with character A joining B versus B joining A. Since there is nothing in the KDK codex preventing a khorne lord from joining a tzeentch marked or squad or forming a unit with a tzeentch IC or joining a unit that has such an IC attached already. But what happens with the Tzeentch IC once the KDK IC joins a unit with him? It is a similar situation to a crimson slaughter IC with Prophet of the voices.

However, the heralds don't have marks, so there is no problem with them. either way.

Since the Tz. IC cannot join units with non-Tz Marks, your example above is simple: The Tz IC would not be able to join a unit with a KDK Chaos Lord in it. If the Tz IC was already part of the unit, he would have to leave as soon as the KDK IC joins.

CSM book says you can't mix marks. But unmarked units from CSM can join the KDK.

Let's not try and pretend the restriction goes away from the CSM books with Order of Operation bull.

 Galef wrote:

Roknar wrote:
I guess it depends on how you deal with character A joining B versus B joining A. Since there is nothing in the KDK codex preventing a khorne lord from joining a tzeentch marked or squad or forming a unit with a tzeentch IC or joining a unit that has such an IC attached already. But what happens with the Tzeentch IC once the KDK IC joins a unit with him? It is a similar situation to a crimson slaughter IC with Prophet of the voices.

However, the heralds don't have marks, so there is no problem with them. either way.

Since the Tz. IC cannot join units with non-Tz Marks, your example above is simple: The Tz IC would not be able to join a unit with a KDK Chaos Lord in it. If the Tz IC was already part of the unit, he would have to leave as soon as the KDK IC joins.

Please provide a rules quote stating that a restriction on joining applies once you are already joined.

CSM book pg 30 " An IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos"

Once a KDK joins that unit, the Tz IC is now joined to a unit with a different Mark. Since this cannot happen, the Tz character has to leave the unit (or the KDK character is not allowed to join in the first place.) Logic, no other quote is needed

 Galef wrote:
CSM book pg 30 " An IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos"

Once a KDK joins that unit, the Tz IC is now joined to a unit with a different Mark. Since this cannot happen, the Tz character has to leave the unit (or the KDK character is not allowed to join in the first place.) Logic, no other quote is needed

So "may not join" is the exact same thing as "may not stay joined to"?

It's a big can of worms and I believe most people will play it as you described. But its not as clear cut as you make it out to be.
There are valid arguments to allowing it, but it's pretty much exploit territory.

The rule says the IC may not join. It doesn't say, the IC may not join or be joined.

True.

I would also like to put on record that I am playing Devil's Advocate. I would not enjoy playing with or against any of these combos. I am just pointing out the unfortunate wiggle room.

Just to point out, Heralds from Codex: Khorne Demonkin do *not* have a Mark of Khorne, nor do they have the Demonic Instability rule that Khorne Heralds from Codex: Chaos Demons have.

KDK Heralds are free to join any unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, since there are no Marks of Chaos being mixed. This means you could, for example, attach a KDK Herald riding a Juggernaut to a unit of Nurgle Spawn no problem (well, other than fluff problems).

KDK Heralds cannot join units from Codex: Chaos Demons, as the Herald lacks the Demonic Instability rule.