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In reading the thread "AoS; How well is it doing in your Area" I noted the misguided glee of those who don't like AoS. To those happy about it's alleged failure (two weeks on, mind you), I'd ask you to consider the state of affairs before AoS was released.

So, how well was WFB doing in your area before AoS.

My apochryphal story comes from the manager of a local game shop. I asked his thoughts on the controversy. He said that some of his customers were indeed complaining about AoS and the demise of the old world. He asked those that complained whether they'd played a WFB game in the past six months. The answer was, not surprisingly, "no."

There are undoubtedly isolated groups of gamers who play WFB regularly. But I simply don't believe that's the case for most. I know that I had not played it in 2-3 years despite having four painted armies.

If GW had released a 9th edition with only incremental changes to the rules (e.g. making charges fixed instead of random) I'm confident I wouldn't have been motivated to haul out my models and give it another try. AoS, warts and all, has persuaded me to do so, and even to buy some new models, not the lieast of which is because it's easier to play and it's something new.

WFB was a dead end. AoS has at least the chance of a future.

WHFB in my area was killed by 8th. Reasonably good group prior to 8th, very few players from 8th onwards.

Of course that doesn't mean WHFB was a "dead end" as you put it, it just means GW fethed up with 8th. Instead of fixing it they killed it.

AoS, IMO, doesn't have much of a future either unless they make some fundamental changes (ya know, the sort of changes they should have made to regular WHFB instead of just killing it).

4th through 7th edition, WHFB was pretty popular, I'd say only slightly behind 40k in the latter years and similar if not more popular in the early years.

In the last two years Fantasy was basically dead.
There was 40k, Xwing, WMH, Infinity and Bolt Action.

8th was massive at my local store (Bristol, central). We had loads of regulars and also played Triumph and Treachery lots too.

8th was really fun, but I like AoS more game wise (the fluff is worse in my opinion). AoS has alienated one or two of the old 8th vets, but mostly people are enjoying it (or still testing the waters).

The only annoyance is the big display board for AoS in the centre of the shop meaning their is currently only one gaming table, rather than the 4 they used to have.

Regimental fantasy wargaming certainly isn't dead. The KoW 2 kickstarter and the interest in the release of second edition has shown that.

WHFB died because GW mismanaged it. There was a constant push for bigger and bigger. When I tried my hand it in when it first came out in 2010, my core two units were blocks of 29 and 30 dwarf Warriors with great weapons. 8th edition pushed the limits on what unit sizes needed to be in order to be competitive (anyone else remember 100 skaven slave blocks?). Add to that GW's insane pricing structure (Goldswords) and no wonder why people stopped playing - you needed to invest a fortune in a single army to get it anywhere near regular levels of play.

And don't forget, there was a 9 month period between the release of 8th and the first 8th ed army book, which was Orcs & Goblins. And that release was poorly received since the book was demonstrably less powerful than previously released books and focused on shooting units (for Orcs, of all things).

If 9th edition had scaled things back, then GW could have created interest in it again. Make two scales of game - one where blocks of 10-20 minis were the norm, and then a bigger, 'Unbound Fantasy' version with wacky magic and huge units.

Instead of that, however, GW made a game that tries to mug off of 40k, Warmachine/Hordes, Saga, and other skirmish games. And now people with massive 8th/End Time armies are left looking at their collections and wondering how they're ever going to use them all again, when AoS struggles when both players put down 50 models each.

WHFB didn't need to go to make room for AoS - AoS could have been a great replacement for the Hobbit/LotR now that the movies are finally done with.

I had a decent WHFB group at my local game store. There were 4-8 of us that played every week, and 5 of those players were new to the hobby last year. We were starting to go to GT's and local tournaments together. AoS pretty much killed it, though it may pick up again later on when everyone recovers from the initial shock.

I know at other places, AoS has revitalized a dying fantasy community, so I don't really have any hard feelings towards it.


edit: word are hard.

Actually it was doing fairly well at the GW i was at. It's more the fantasy snobs and the competitive side that helped ruin things.

Towards the middle and end of 8th large blocks 50+ were actually pretty rare even among skaven and undead players. Having a lot of units esp. chaff meant a lot and being out-deployed because your units are too large would happen in that case.

Personally while 8th wasn't perfect it was pretty close in my opinion (aside from the magic phase which was super random even though it wasn't in 7th). The only fixes needed was to have all army books updated to the current edition which is something my poor skaven never got. You'd think people would give skaven a break but somehow they create this term for OP outdated armies even though i most certainly imagine them being mid-tier at least at the end of 8th.

Personally i think what killed it for fantasy was GW being stupid by not expanding fantasy into other markets even close to as much as it did with 40k. How many books, video games and various comics or lore did you see on fantasy? If fantasy had that sort of attention you'd see a lot more sales for fantasy but of course space marines are the answer to everything huh GW. Another thing they should've done to help fantasy is tone down the rules to maybe 25% of what they had. As far as special rules go, army specific rules, equipment and everything else it was a lot to take in. 40k has maybe one page of special rules last i checked and generally most armies follow them and don't have too many army specific special rules. Basically fantasy had more things to juggle around in the mind and considering the idea of chaff and fantasy being like chess as compared to 40k being checkers it's no wonder why people prefer the easier, simpler and less thought-consuming game to the complicated one.

Very popular. Local GW and FLGS about 40-50% of games played, 2nd most popular game at our clubs.

Well, speaking only for my gaming group in Columbus, Ohio we actually had an 8-player WFB map campaign going at the time when AoS came out. (The map campaign is slated to start again here in a couple of weeks.) We also have about 6-7 WFB independent GT's a year that are all within a 6 hour drive. In fact, we just had Buckeye Battles here in Ohio which had 108 WFB players over the course of 3 days from July 10th through the 12th. http://buckeyebattles.com/

There are still another 3-4 WFB tournaments scheduled with 8th edition between now and the end of the year.

Heck, I just played a WFB game last night and broke out my Bretonnians in a 2500 point battle against a friend's Dark Elves.

So, I think it's safe to say that WFB was alive and well here when GW decided to pull the plug. Most everyone that I've talked to who has been playing 8th edition is going to stick with 8th edition.

There were several players, but not many games going on. Most people had armies they were just sitting on. Fantasy was having a small resurgence with End Times right up until the Jan rumor drop. Once that happened no one would touch it.

Over last year it was dying. Only two super-competitive clubs played on regular basis with the ETC goal and a couple guys played it once every few months...

Other systems were gaining lots of popularity in my city, especially WarZone: Resurrection and X-Wing, but overall wargaming is doing "just okay" recently. A lot of systems kicking in in a short succession also thinned the wargaming community down a little, spreading it across a few camps, but we still get new players asking about games nowadays, maybe even more often.

There is no store support for WHFB in my local area. Not one store holds a WHFB night and a few carry very few models WHFB miniatures. So as expected AoS will not being selling well in my area.

WHFB was basically dead in my area. AoS is generating a significant amount of buzz now, because quite a few people actually have Fantasy armies (they just weren't playing with them).

I wasn't around to see it at the time but from everything I heard in my area under 7th ed fantasy tourneys pulled 100, 150 or even 200 players to the biggest ones.

Once 8th hit that fell to 15-25 players. In fact the largest in the state stopped bothering after that.

However in the last year or so prior to end times a few of us introduced 8th to the local 40kers and it saw a resurgence. It became as popular as 40k as most people locally like to play competitivly and they found the game more balanced and more tactically rewarding.

I think the release of 8th ed was a disaster but one of GWs own making, the game could easily have stood up there alongside 40k at its height. I think if GW had have put the time and effort they spent on end times and AoS into supporting 8th, perhaps with a worldwide campaign or something, it would have been much more successful (at least locally).

Was doing poorly before AoS... AoS is doing even worse.

It wasn't played in stores but there was a decent group across the state and in surrounding states that apparently could support two decently sized GT events yearly in the local area. That said there was zero activity outside of those events if you couldn't find a local group to play so it felt dead.

We had 8-10 regular players every week and were in the middle of a campaign. We had few non regulars also. Lots of interest and people talking about building new armies until the rummers of a new version started. We lost a few to work and or school, but not to lack of interest. Now that AOS has came out we are down to 6 at a most so far. Some have either lost interest or are so POed at GW they are moving to other game systems. I find AOS fun and interesting so far and plan on continuing to play. But the group is also looking at other rule sets and other games. We have a great store that supports Fantasy and AOS as well as other games.

Fantasy has a very good following in my area. We still have our annual Fantasy tournament coming up in a couple of months.

A couple of players are getting into AOS, but generally there's hardly any interest. KOW is generating more of a buzz.

Thanks to OP for asking this great question and everyone for their answers. It is, IMHO, a key to understanding why AoS exists.

Bede19025 wrote:
My apochryphal story comes from the manager of a local game shop. I asked his thoughts on the controversy. He said that some of his customers were indeed complaining about AoS and the demise of the old world. He asked those that complained whether they'd played a WFB game in the past six months. The answer was, not surprisingly, "no."

I think such "in the field" retail-level stories are the most telling. However, I also recognise our local meta deviated from the norm.

Long story short for our local meta - here in Hong Kong, historically Fantasy was more popular than 40k. There WAS a noticeable demographic difference, though. We're an international city, with both local Chinese players and expat UK/US/Canadian players. Local Chinese players tend to play more Fantasy, expat UK/US/Canadian players tend to play more 40k. Many players play both, too.

Fantasy was still doing well in 8th, despite complaints about the Magic phase, that it was too random and had too large an impact. The running gag was 8th being a game of painting beautiful armies, deploying them strategically...then you roll a die for Magic and one of the players packs up his just-deployed army, having lost the fight before it even started. Even so, the joke existed because people still cared.

At that time, I'd see on average 2 WHFB games to 1 40k/30k game to 1 Bolt Action game. That was the ratio.

The End Times started to see a shift, IMHO. It looked very exciting on the outside, some of our 40k friends bought the books, interesting to follow what happened in the Old World. At the same time, there were fewer and fewer Fantasy games. 40k, though, was picking up, and I long believed it was because of an interesting 40k campaign that was very popular in my FLGS, but it was a sign of waning Fantasy interest.

A few days ago, after the launch of AoS, the ratio was now 3 40k/30k games to 1 Bolt Action game to 0 AoS games.

That said, I also acknowledge that even though more players were playing Fantasy, they bought less than 40k players. Fantasy players had accumulated armies over the years and would simply rotate their armies depending on what was more powerful, using the same models but with new rules. Of course, of course, there was also that in 40k, but 40k boxes seemed to be moving more.

From GW's standpoint, I can see it's more about which game was moving boxes vs. which game was getting played more. That said, the scariest sign for AoS now is, even before when WHFB and 40k released something unpopular, people would love complaining about it. When AoS 1st game out, there was an uproar. Now, it's quiet, nobody is even interested in talking about it.

IMHO, indifference is worse than nerd rage. That's the current state of AoS now in my local meta.

It will of course vary from area to area. Where I live, WHFB was going pretty strong. You could quite easily arrange a WHFB game at the club and there would normally be a few people with it if you went down at either the club or local GW game nights. Not as popular as 40k, mind, but still very popular. It was also very popular at the local GW where I went to uni. I remember turning up to a game night with my 40k stuff - on the assumption, like at home, that 40k would be the more popular - and actually had to wait to get a game. There were 3 WHFB players, with a fourth turning up after me, and only 2 40k players, for whom I had to wait in order to get my game.

AoS isn't doing quite as well at home (though I haven't been to uni since it was released). There are quite a few younger players who have embraced it, but at the club and the GW veteran nights there's a lot more 40k around. At the GW game night last friday there was only 1 AoS game all night, whereas we'd usually get 2 or 3 WHFB games going on.

 infinite_array wrote:

WHFB died because GW mismanaged it. There was a constant push for bigger and bigger. When I tried my hand it in when it first came out in 2010, my core two units were blocks of 29 and 30 dwarf Warriors with great weapons. 8th edition pushed the limits on what unit sizes needed to be in order to be competitive (anyone else remember 100 skaven slave blocks?). Add to that GW's insane pricing structure (Goldswords) and no wonder why people stopped playing - you needed to invest a fortune in a single army to get it anywhere near regular levels of play.

My friend and I were looking into WFB not long before End Times dropped, and I think this was our biggest stumbling block. Certainly for me, as I was looking at Vampire Counts. When I realised I was going to need to spend at least £50 to field one 200 point unit of skeletons I very quickly came to the conclusion of 'bugger that'.

Also I didn't really want to spend the rest of my life painting zombies, but that's a whole other matter...

 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:
It is, IMHO, a key to understanding why AoS exists.

I don't think there was ever any question why GW made AoS. WHFB sales were flagging and rather than fix it they decided to kill it and put their money in to AoS to appeal to the 40k crowd.

They never would have known what was required to actually fix WHFB because they don't do market research.

only the staff at my local GW were playing. now its alot more popular in store as you can have a game without getting a parking ticket...

Crispy78 wrote:

Also I didn't really want to spend the rest of my life painting zombies, but that's a whole other matter...

Army Painter Necrotic Flesh Spray!

Then some browns/greens for clothing and a black wash.

The older players tended to show up with huge, lavishly painted WHFB armies to play pick-up games - the younger players generally had proxied, half-painted 40K armies. We had 4-5 WHFB regulars and another dozen or so "outsiders" that lived outside the regular area but would stop in every month or so to play, compared to the 12-15 regular 40K players.

I keep hearing the accusation that "GW killed WHFB because it wasn't selling," but that didn't seem to jive with those huge-ass armies those WHFB players had assembled. Maybe the fact that they'd done it over 10-20 years had something to do with it, in a "what have you done for me LATELY" sort of way...

Lastly, I gotta say - enjoying AoS's stumbling road to failure isn't "misguided." It's absolutely DELICIOUS.

 Commissar Molotov wrote:


...Lastly, I gotta say - enjoying AoS's stumbling road to failure isn't "misguided." It's absolutely DELICIOUS.

If you say so personally id say reveling in misfortune is for from desirable.

"Misfortune?" Hardly. AoS didn't just "happen" to GW, Zognob. They consciously CHOSE this.

 Commissar Molotov wrote:
The older players tended to show up with huge, lavishly painted WHFB armies to play pick-up games - the younger players generally had proxied, half-painted 40K armies. We had 4-5 WHFB regulars and another dozen or so "outsiders" that lived outside the regular area but would stop in every month or so to play, compared to the 12-15 regular 40K players.

I keep hearing the accusation that "GW killed WHFB because it wasn't selling," but that didn't seem to jive with those huge-ass armies those WHFB players had assembled. Maybe the fact that they'd done it over 10-20 years had something to do with it, in a "what have you done for me LATELY" sort of way... .

Yes, many (most) people with those huge WFB armies completed them long ago and haven't bought new models in years. What did you expect GW to live on in the meantime? WFB's fan's good wishes don't pay the bills.

 Commissar Molotov wrote:
Lastly, I gotta say - enjoying AoS's stumbling road to failure isn't "misguided." It's absolutely DELICIOUS.

How charming.

 Commissar Molotov wrote:
"Misfortune?" Hardly. AoS didn't just "happen" to GW, Zognob. They consciously CHOSE this.

And this includes all the GW staff? this includes all the fans that miss WHFB? this includes the all the fans that like AOS?

Lots of things are consciously chosen to be done with far reaching consequences, i'm not sure that this choice is an opening for malice but everyone interprets things differently.

On a Friday night our games club on average has 8 main tables on the go.

Of this 40K is 2-4 tables, WHFB 2-3 tables and then a few non GW game taking place