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Isn't it embarrassing that I google'd up help for this problem, and ended up drawing up my own thread from over a year ago?

So I'm getting completely trounced by Pre-Heresy marines (Emperor's Children), and I am at a total loss for what to do. I'd post a specific list, but each has failed so spectacularly that I'm at the 'try random crap' stage of list-building just to see if anything sticks.

However, to give this a -little- direction, I'll rattle off some of the things I tend to field, and the units my opponent has that I have trouble with.

On my side, we're usually looking at (depending on points value):
- Slaanesh Lord, Sigil of Corruption, and usually a power sword to strike at initiative. Been trying the Murder Sword to get some AP 1 against primarchs and HQ's, but last time I tried he had a sergeant with artificer armor and a thunder hammer to throw in the way of a challenge. At this rate, it's pretty much a tax to make Noise Marines troops for all it can do.
- Slaanesh DP, wings, armor, other gear varies. I haven't been fielding this one as much as I should, so I only have one game to gauge its effectiveness.
- Noise Marines, typically fielded in units of 10 with 2 Blastmasters. I camp them in cover and wittle away the hordes of 3+ armor that I can draw line of sight to. But even with I5 and the extra close combat weapon, they absolutely crumble in combat.
- Sonic Dreadnaught with Warp Amp and Blastmaster. Usually serves as another fire base, with a bit of close combat deterrent. Currently working on putting together another.
- Heldrakes. I have one with a Bale Flamer, and one with a Hades Autocannon that I wish I gave a Baleflamer instead. They're good for taking out marines, but the marines are hardly the problem.
- Maulerfiend. I have a second in the works, but the first dies so embarrassingly fast that I question if it's even worth the effort. The one I do field tends to die in the first round of combat, killing only a few marines for the effort.
- LatD Allies - Sometimes I go with Master of the Horde and 3 fifteen-strong squads of militia with as many melta guns as they can take. Once again, they can take out marines, but marines aren't the problem. Other times I'll toss in a Leman Russ Squadron or Rapier Laser Destroyer battery, but neither of those options can quite cut it.
- BAD LUCK - If I absolutely need a unit to die, you can be rest assured that I will fire multiple units' worth of shots into them and completely whiff. We also tend to play Maelstrom of War, and if I ever need to get victory points to turn a game, I'll either draw objectives on the other side of the field, or cards that are impossible for me to accomplish.

On my opponent's side, here are the problem units:
- Land Raider (Proteus?) - 20 man transport capacity, ceramite armor, quad lascannons, and some fancy rule that reduces the strength of incoming shots by 1 on the front armor (2 if the shot is a blast). I have never been able to pop this thing, and frankly I don't think I ever will. Nothing I can field has both the high strength weaponry to hurt it combined with the maneuverability to get at its side, and so long as that's an issue he'll always have 20 marines exactly where he needs them every game.
- Primarchs and HQ's in general - First it was Fulgrim, and now he's added Horus. Even his Preators give me problems. There's simply nothing I can field that can reliably hurt them; the only AP2 in melee I sport is at Initiative 1, not that it matters much with that whole mandatory challenge thing, forcing me to just feed them my warlord.
- Warhound Titan - He's only fielded this once, and that was when I fielded the hordes with melta guns. Nobody could get close enough to even pop a shot off, and the tanks I had that could hurt it were blown up and blockaded before I even got a turn in.
- AWESOME LUCK - Seriously, with Maelstrom of War, he'll either draw into 6-7 victory points on the first turn, or into 7-8 victory points on the last, ending the game with nearly twice as many points as me. Combine that with lucky shooting, consistent saves on his 2+ armor no matter how many times I make him roll, and ALWAYS making those 5+ FnP or cover saves, and I start to reach the point that the only weapons I consider an actual part of my army are the ones that straight up ignore saves, with the rest (no matter how big) being so much useless chaff.

I'm seriously at wit's end here, and I'm strongly considering just shelving Chaos to jump over to Eldar Wraithguard - even if I don't wipe things out, at least D weapons will usually do SOMETHING if I really need them to. There are a few things I have that I could try working with a little more, but I'm not exactly hopeful.

The wildcards on my side - most of these are either specialty models, or things I haven't built yet, or even just stuff I plan to build in the future but don't quite have together yet:
- Knight Titan - I've got 2, a Paladin, and another that I haven't put arms on yet because I'm still waiting to see if Forgeworld makes a Chaos Gallant variant. The first time I experimented with the Gallant, I had it go straight for Horus's unit. I forgot several rules associated with Super Heavy Walkers, but regardless the titan died in the first round of combat. I'm not impressed with the performance any of them can offer, but I might still be able to do some dickery with...
- Be'Lakor - I've got my own counts-as model, and the only reason I haven't been fielding it is because I can never get my hands on a printout of the rules. I hear using it to sprinkle Invisibility on the battlefield is the way to go, but I have no experience using this model.
- Land Raider Typhon - Not built yet. Don't even have all the parts together. But a S10, AP1, Ignores Cover shot seems to be the sort of thing I need to somehow field in abundance anymore if I want to stand a chance.
- Cult Army Allies from Horus Heresy 5 - I already have scads of infantry to put together. I was considering an allied detachment with 2 fifty-strong squads of levies, with a Commander with Feral Warriors and Tainted Flesh Provenances. Buy the upgrade for the levies to give them an extra attack, and just drown anything in fistfuls of rending dice.
- Weighted Dice/Stacked Deck - I shouldn't stoop to cheating, but if this nonsense of my opponent just getting 6 VP off the bat, or 8 VP at the very end keeps up, in addition to atrociously unbalanced luck of the dice, I'm going to at least propose some kind of handicap so these games can go over a little better for me than a curb-stomping.

30k vs. 40k is not balanced, especially if he fields Primarchs. Stop playing him or play both either 40k lists or 30k lists.

MSU blastmasters. 5 man, single blastmaster in a rhino will make 3+ armor armies really nervous.

Also, consider bike lords, and bike sorcerors. They're great in a unit of spawn, or slaanesh bikes with icon.

Um. 30k has a lot of strong stuff sure, but mostly its over costed. You'll end up playing very small armies. I would suggest the fearless chaos horde, and just rush em.

Spawn, combat noise marines, fabius altered marines , hellcult.

Don't forgeth helldrakes. 30k isnt known for its anti air.

Belakor is very good. The rules aren't particularly expensive, you can get them from the black library website.

Consider the New chaos knight.

Daemon summoning is also good (but needs daemon models, which are expensive )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prinmarchs(you should only be facing one, and only at 2000 pts btw) are solid. Do not give them your warlord (unless he's invisible) . Feed them fearless chaff, like spawn or helcult cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Get up to 3 maulerfiends and the Spartan will quake in its boots.

I never considered spawn before, though I somehow doubt that even at T5(6 with MoN), 3 wounds, and fearless they'll tie up a primarch or even preator for long unless they roll FNP. Even so, more units that can move faster than 6" a turn will help with grabbing objectives.

As for the Knight, I'm still debating between a Paladin or a Gallant. The battle cannon isn't terribly useful against the type of army I'm up again, with the frequent 2+ armor I have to deal with. I don't know if an Errant would be worth it just for the AP1? It won't put a dent in the Proteus, but it will at least deny any armor saves his infantry can muster.

And... the absurd luck is still an issue. Maelstrom of War is not kind to me, and it's even worse when that ridiculous 6-8 VP turn kicks in for my opponent, followed up by a completely dry one on my end. I want so bad to like the system, but it just doesn't seem to work for me to randomize whether or not it's even possible to win the game (ie: luck of the draw dictates I cannot, even with perfect rolling). I've heard groaning from some other players about Maelstrom before. Though I'd have an almost impossible time of it, should I suggest to my opponents we play a different format?
EDIT: There's also the very narrow possibility of going 'screw it' in Maelstrom games, and simply aiming to table my opponent every game, but I doubt even the cheesiest Chaos list could pull it off. Still, should that be on the board? Ignore objectives and try to destroy everything down to the man in 5 turns?
EDIT-EDIT: I'll also look into getting that third Maulerfiend, and finishing the second one I have. At AV 12, you need multiples to pose any threat with them.

Sounds like you have a couple issues.

1. Opponent insists to play 2500+, at which the Legion list really starts to come into its own. Try playing an 1850 - whoops, no more Primarch!

2. It sounds like your opponent has a lot more disposable income given the following units he's bringing up:

On my opponent's side, here are the problem units:
- Land Raider (Proteus?) - 20 man transport capacity, ceramite armor, quad lascannons, and some fancy rule that reduces the strength of incoming shots by 1 on the front armor (2 if the shot is a blast). I have never been able to pop this thing, and frankly I don't think I ever will. Nothing I can field has both the high strength weaponry to hurt it combined with the maneuverability to get at its side, and so long as that's an issue he'll always have 20 marines exactly where he needs them every game.

In the 30k Meta, Spartans aren't as good as they used to be due to increased amounts of Haywire. I highly recommend getting some source of Haywire in your list to take them out, as it completely ignores Armored Ceramite and Flash Shielding.

P.S. Melta Bombs have Armorbane and thus ignore Ceramite.

- Primarchs and HQ's in general - First it was Fulgrim, and now he's added Horus. Even his Preators give me problems. There's simply nothing I can field that can reliably hurt them; the only AP2 in melee I sport is at Initiative 1, not that it matters much with that whole mandatory challenge thing, forcing me to just feed them my warlord.

Fulgrim is 380 points, Horus is 500. You know what you can get for the cost of Fulgrim (more or less)? A Typhon, which is a Str10 AP1 ignores cover 7" blast weapon. You know what makes a Primarch cry at night? A Knight. Fulgrim can't even touch it and Horus won't be looking too hot with StrD in his face.

- Warhound Titan - He's only fielded this once, and that was when I fielded the hordes with melta guns. Nobody could get close enough to even pop a shot off, and the tanks I had that could hurt it were blown up and blockaded before I even got a turn in.

To Fight a Warhound titan, I'd recommend suicide Terminator squads. First of all you'll want to remove Void Shields with Autocannons or other methods, and then melt out the Warhound. Don't waste special weapons on void shields if you can avoid it.

- AWESOME LUCK - Seriously, with Maelstrom of War, he'll either draw into 6-7 victory points on the first turn, or into 7-8 victory points on the last, ending the game with nearly twice as many points as me. Combine that with lucky shooting, consistent saves on his 2+ armor no matter how many times I make him roll, and ALWAYS making those 5+ FnP or cover saves, and I start to reach the point that the only weapons I consider an actual part of my army are the ones that straight up ignore saves, with the rest (no matter how big) being so much useless chaff.

Luck is just something that can be taken advantage of. Everyone has luck, you just need to learn how to utilize it.
Can you post his actual army list? Your opponent's list doesn't sound like it's anything special and tbh I'd bet that my 2500 Alpha Legion would feth his gak up so hard he wouldn't be able to use the restroom for a week.


WEAKNESSES OF TACTICAL BLOBS WITH APOTHECARY
Tactical Blobs are a beginner's list-building mistake in 30k and experienced players know how to counteract them. All you have to do is get in combat with them and win combat, which is easy considering they have zero close combat punch. They're resilient but when you start introducing things such as Demolisher Cannons from Vindicators and Typhones, you wipe out hundreds of points with a snap.

-Weapons that are Str8+ AP2 or less, ignores their FNP
-Extremely expensive and unwieldy
-Can be swept in close combat
-Zero special weapons, just bolters

Btw, have at least 2+ Maulerfiends and get the Be'Lakor dataslate. Get the Bloodthirster with Strength D and an Imperial Knight and you will see Primarchs cry and Tactical Squads swept.

 Quintinus wrote:
Sounds like you have a couple issues.
1. Opponent insists to play 2500+, at which the Legion list really starts to come into its own. Try playing an 1850 - whoops, no more Primarch!

2. It sounds like your opponent has a lot more disposable income given the following units he's bringing up:

1) That's one problem I have to wrestle over with my regular opponents; they turn their noses up at anything less than 2000-2500 for ANY game, and it makes it really hard for me to get the practice in when a single game can take 5-6 hours, and makes it daunting to start any new army because it must be viable at that level for me to play. 2) The one who plays pre-heresy naturally has a LOT more money than sense. He even has that gunship, and is looking into getting more of the traitor primarchs.

In the 30k Meta, Spartans aren't as good as they used to be due to increased amounts of Haywire. I highly recommend getting some source of Haywire in your list to take them out, as it completely ignores Armored Ceramite and Flash Shielding.

P.S. Melta Bombs have Armorbane and thus ignore Ceramite.

I don't think there's a single Chaos model that has haywire. At that we're pretty much looking at allying into Eldar or Tau, and considering I want to keep this remotely fluffy I would rather keep them out of this. Good note on the Melta Bombs, though. The only issue is getting in close enough before the LR disgorges 20 marines who then proceed to practice their bolter drill, or whatever other nastiness lurks inside. I can't see slapping grenades on that thing as a real option, unless I get lucky with a Raptor Champion.

Fulgrim is 380 points, Horus is 500. You know what you can get for the cost of Fulgrim (more or less)? A Typhon, which is a Str10 AP1 ignores cover 7" blast weapon. You know what makes a Primarch cry at night? A Knight. Fulgrim can't even touch it and Horus won't be looking too hot with StrD in his face.

I really do need to find something to build into a Typhon. I even got an old Noise Marine with the guitar, and I was gonna make it a mobile concert stage for him to justify the cannon as a giant sonic weapon.
The Knight, however... We fudged in a Gallant in the first game my opponent fielded Horus. The knight died in the first round of combat without even completely taking out Horus' compatriots (5 terminator type guys). Knights dropping on me with minimal effort from my opponent seems to be an unfortunately regular thing, so maybe I'm missing something - standing back and shooting usually has to contend with ridiculous cover saves or that LR, and charging forward is pretty much sacrificing it to kill a small handful of infantry.

To Fight a Warhound titan, I'd recommend suicide Terminator squads. First of all you'll want to remove Void Shields with Autocannons or other methods, and then melt out the Warhound. Don't waste special weapons on void shields if you can avoid it.

By the time I add in Melta Terminators, I start running out of slots and points that I can use to autocannons. However, my opponent's Warhounds use the old rules; that is, shots from within 12" ignore the void shields. Still, that's a pretty hefty gamble for some like me who has reliably bad rolls.

Luck is just something that can be taken advantage of. Everyone has luck, you just need to learn how to utilize it.

I'm afraid I don't follow. I fail to roll high enough to take out units, and fail to draw cards to pull ahead in Maelstrom. How can these be spun into advantages?

As for the actual army list he plays, I could see about pilfering one off him this Friday, but like me it tends to shift around a lot, with those aforementioned things being recurring choices.

As for the blobs, while I have little trouble with them, I could see to using a Knight Errant to get the AP necessary in a large blast to take them out, sergeant included. I'd almost rather take the battle cannon, but I'm more afraid of getting stuck in combat with another 2+ model. The demolishers... vindicators? I love them to bits, but I have a bad history with them, plus they occupy slots that my maulerfiends would take up.

And I'm gonna sound downright stupidly stubborn here, but I'm trying to keep this as a Slaaneshi-themed army, so I'd rather not field the Khorne daemon. But we'll see how desperate I get.

Depending on how many renegade models you have you could use the unending host detachment, send in wave after wave of melta bomb squads and powerfist champs to do damage (squads replenish on a 2+ then outflank).

The legions he runs (and most other legions) are built around the Spartan deathstar which is expensive to deal with in 30k asbhaywire is expensive and grav is almost non existent, in 40k both of these are a lot more common though sadly not for chaos, what you could do is ally in some "dark" mechanicum for grav or haywire but make sure you aren't affected by 1 eye open. Even if you just manage to immobilise the Spartan you have dealt a huge blow and you on ly need 3 "6s" from grav to destroy it. I guess its hard for chaos on their own.

How many points is the average game? Those are expensive units on either side.

That Land Raider he fields sounds like a Spartan Assault Tank. There's no good way to kill them short of D weapons and, of course, Eldar.

The CSM troops have nothing to deal with a Titan. Add Knights for better outcomes.

Axle_Gear wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:
Sounds like you have a couple issues.
1. Opponent insists to play 2500+, at which the Legion list really starts to come into its own. Try playing an 1850 - whoops, no more Primarch!

2. It sounds like your opponent has a lot more disposable income given the following units he's bringing up:

1) That's one problem I have to wrestle over with my regular opponents; they turn their noses up at anything less than 2000-2500 for ANY game, and it makes it really hard for me to get the practice in when a single game can take 5-6 hours, and makes it daunting to start any new army because it must be viable at that level for me to play. 2) The one who plays pre-heresy naturally has a LOT more money than sense. He even has that gunship, and is looking into getting more of the traitor primarchs.

As long as he doesn't get Alpharius (inb4 opponent reading this thread) you're fine. Overall the Traitor Primarchs sans Horus and Lorgar are weaker than their Loyalist counterparts.

Sucks about the points snobbery thing though, you could goad them and say "what's wrong? afraid you won't do as well in an 1850?".

In the 30k Meta, Spartans aren't as good as they used to be due to increased amounts of Haywire. I highly recommend getting some source of Haywire in your list to take them out, as it completely ignores Armored Ceramite and Flash Shielding.

P.S. Melta Bombs have Armorbane and thus ignore Ceramite.

I don't think there's a single Chaos model that has haywire. At that we're pretty much looking at allying into Eldar or Tau, and considering I want to keep this remotely fluffy I would rather keep them out of this. Good note on the Melta Bombs, though. The only issue is getting in close enough before the LR disgorges 20 marines who then proceed to practice their bolter drill, or whatever other nastiness lurks inside. I can't see slapping grenades on that thing as a real option, unless I get lucky with a Raptor Champion.

Haha wow, he sometimes uses 20 Tactical Marines inside a LR Spartan? By the way, if he ever tries to use Fury of the Legion on you (the bolter shot doubler), his Marines can't have moved. And they have to have at least 5 models in the unit.

Also this is probably one of the only times I might suggest using a couple suicide units of Mutilators, but really any sort of unit that can get within CC range ASAP with Melta Bombs will do the trick. You need to kill the Spartan Tank turn 2 at the extreme latest.

Fulgrim is 380 points, Horus is 500. You know what you can get for the cost of Fulgrim (more or less)? A Typhon, which is a Str10 AP1 ignores cover 7" blast weapon. You know what makes a Primarch cry at night? A Knight. Fulgrim can't even touch it and Horus won't be looking too hot with StrD in his face.

I really do need to find something to build into a Typhon. I even got an old Noise Marine with the guitar, and I was gonna make it a mobile concert stage for him to justify the cannon as a giant sonic weapon.
The Knight, however... We fudged in a Gallant in the first game my opponent fielded Horus. The knight died in the first round of combat without even completely taking out Horus' compatriots (5 terminator type guys). Knights dropping on me with minimal effort from my opponent seems to be an unfortunately regular thing, so maybe I'm missing something - standing back and shooting usually has to contend with ridiculous cover saves or that LR, and charging forward is pretty much sacrificing it to kill a small handful of infantry.

Yep, definitely get a Typhon ASAP. Also what was your opponent packing that killed a Knight on the first turn? Horus can strike at Str10, sure, but a Knight has enough HP to survive that. Perhaps check out the Chaos Knights, the Slaanesh one isn't too bad and you get a 5+ invul all around.

Btw, Horus + a Spartan with Armored Ceramite and Flare Shield alone are 1/3 of his entire points in a 2500 game and nearly 1/2 of his points in a 2000 point game. Meanwhile, a Chaos Knight and

To Fight a Warhound titan, I'd recommend suicide Terminator squads. First of all you'll want to remove Void Shields with Autocannons or other methods, and then melt out the Warhound. Don't waste special weapons on void shields if you can avoid it.

By the time I add in Melta Terminators, I start running out of slots and points that I can use to autocannons. However, my opponent's Warhounds use the old rules; that is, shots from within 12" ignore the void shields. Still, that's a pretty hefty gamble for some like me who has reliably bad rolls.

Haha, well I suppose I can't do anything about poor rolls but I can help in every other way.

Luck is just something that can be taken advantage of. Everyone has luck, you just need to learn how to utilize it.

I'm afraid I don't follow. I fail to roll high enough to take out units, and fail to draw cards to pull ahead in Maelstrom. How can these be spun into advantages?

As for the actual army list he plays, I could see about pilfering one off him this Friday, but like me it tends to shift around a lot, with those aforementioned things being recurring choices.

As for the blobs, while I have little trouble with them, I could see to using a Knight Errant to get the AP necessary in a large blast to take them out, sergeant included. I'd almost rather take the battle cannon, but I'm more afraid of getting stuck in combat with another 2+ model. The demolishers... vindicators? I love them to bits, but I have a bad history with them, plus they occupy slots that my maulerfiends would take up.

And I'm gonna sound downright stupidly stubborn here, but I'm trying to keep this as a Slaaneshi-themed army, so I'd rather not field the Khorne daemon. But we'll see how desperate I get.

I'm working from memory and no books on this list here, so I'll have to revise it sometime later in the week once I can get my hands on the necessary reading and materials. This was (as best I can remember) this list I fielded at 3000 points, the game where my opponent fielded his Warhound:

MAIN DETACHMENT - LatD

HQ's

RCS
Demagogue with Power Sword and Plasma Pistol
Master of the Horde
Devotion to Slaanesh

ELITES

10 Noise Marines, 2 Blastmasters

1 Sonic Dreadnaught, Warp Amp, Blast Master

TROOPS

Platoon 1
15 men - Demagogue, 3 plasma guns, militia training, Sub-Flak armor (to stand a chance on Overheat)
15 men - 3 melta guns
15 men - 3 melta guns

Platoon 2
15 men - Demagogue, 3 plasma guns, militia training, Sub-Flak armor (to stand a chance on Overheat)
15 men - 3 melta guns
15 men - 3 melta guns

Heavy

3 Rapier Las Destroyers with additional crew and militia training

Squadron of 3 Leman Russ Demolishers

Squadron of 3 LRBT's


ALLIED DETACHMENT - CSM

HQ

Chaos Sorcerer with Biomancy

Troops

5 CSM

Fast

1 Heldrake

Heavy

1 Maulerfiend

KNIGHTS

1 Knight Gallant with Melta gun - we fudged this one in, since there weren't any chaos variants at all at the time.

And his list, from what little I can recall. Pardon lots of 'thingies I don't know the name of' and extremely vague quantities here.

HQ

Horus

Fulgrim

ELITES

Terminator Variant - had 3+ invuln save

Duelist Marines? - Not entirely certain, but I feel confident that he had a small unit of these

Dreadnaught Variant with Plasma Cannon - Front armor 13

TROOPS

20 Marines

20 Marines

Special weapon Marine squad with Melta guns? Maybe two of them?

OTHER STUFF

Storm Eagle Gunship

Sicaran (sp? name?) battle tank - the real cheap one with the awesome Autocannons

Warhound Titan

I ended up with first turn and setup first, and from deployment things were pretty raw. There was a HUGE ruins in the middle of the field that kept his warhound out of sight from both the LRBT's and the Rapiers, meaning it didn't take a single hit all game. He deployed Horus far up front across from my Gallant, to the point that I was able to make contact on turn 1. As mentioned earlier, the Gallant killed some termies, and promptly keeled over under Horus's S10 attacks. I believe Horus had some rule where he got d3 extra attacks if his WS was higher than his opponent's, which gave him the extra swings needed to win out. Granted, I completely forgot about Hammer of Wrath or Stomp, but Fulgrim was also running around the field, so I doubt it would have made THAT much of a difference. Other points of note where immobilizing the Sicaran, and the Maulerfiend making contact with the Spartan and doing absolutely nothing. On his turn, I believe he destroyed the Maulerfiend in shooting, and the Sicaran took out the Sonic Dread. Two Demolishers go down and end up blockading the remaining one, which managed to get a single shot off that immobilized his Dreadnaught. The rest of it was a blur, but what I do remember is the BS2 conscripts doing a rather admirable job of taking out the marines despite being outnumbered, then Fulgrim and Horus hit the fronts lines and it all went to hell. He was pulling ahead in VP's, but I still stood a chance. Then on the last turn, with my Arch Demagogue (Warlord) by herself and inches away from Horus, my opponent draws an entire hand of cards for killing the warlord, issuing challenges, winning challenges, winning close combat, etc, etc. It would have easily been 8-9 VP if I didn't just forfeit, as I decided to rifle through my deck and realized there was no possible combination of cards that could catch me up in the single turn that could have remained with the models I had left (not that I I stood much of a chance, even without the ridiculous draw).

EDIT: Also, on a bit of earlier advice; I do not think it's possible to take out the Spartan on turn 2 without dedicating most of my army to it. That early in the game, any high strength weapons I have will be hitting its front arch, and relying on deepstrikers to hit it from the side that early would require a LOT of units to stack the odds. I could try allying in Leman Russ Vanquishers, but I'd still need multiple squadrons of them to make it matter, and I have a TERRIBLE history with those tanks.

First of all, his list is -very- illegal.

30k Armies utilize a different Force Organization chart, and it explicitly states that you're allowed a single Lord of War, and he has 3. Secondly, it states that it can only have a points value up to a max of 25% of the game's point value. Thirdly, a Primarch can only be taken in a PRIMARY detachment.

He managed to break all of those supremely well too.

Fulgrim is 380, Horus is 500, and a Warhound is 750 for a total of 1630. Now I'm not gonna say that he's cheating but he's already past half with 3 models, and let's not forget that 2 squads of 20 tacticals base is 500, so now he's at 2130. Contemptor Dreadnought is then like 200, so now at 2330....would love to see a legit list, but your friend sounds pretty cheeky.

Tell him to play by the Age of Darkness rules next time, where he'll be severely limited and you won't have to deal with 3 Lords of War in a single army. That is, unless he plays Unbound I guess?

I'm gonna go with his list being Unbound, though in all honesty he is a bit of a cheater - the sort that remembers a rule being particularly advantageous to him, and rarely bothering to look it up or double check it. Cheating via ignorance, I guess. The other regular opponent I have, while a little more honest, is more infuriating in that he practically snatches rulebooks away from me to slowly search for the page in question, and I'm getting the impression that he wants me to get impatient and roll over for his initial interpretation just to keep the game moving.

Even so, the second game I played against him (at 1500 points) seemed like a far more legitimate list, and he still stomped me to the point that he had nearly double the VP, and I had only one model left on the table. I'll try to post those lists later.

Axle_Gear wrote:
I'm gonna go with his list being Unbound, though in all honesty he is a bit of a cheater - the sort that remembers a rule being particularly advantageous to him, and rarely bothering to look it up or double check it. Cheating via ignorance, I guess.

Don't let that crap go, dude. I don't care if it makes a 5 hour game go to 6, make him show you EVERY single rule. Also, memorize this page number of the Horus Heresy Betrayal book :184. Before every battle 2000 points or higher, ask him to show you that page and then look at this army list. If he refuses, then either a. refuse to play against him, or b. just slip in some extra units of your own.

I don't want to see you get game losses because your opponent things you're a pushover.

The other regular opponent I have, while a little more honest, is more infuriating in that he practically snatches rulebooks away from me to slowly search for the page in question, and I'm getting the impression that he wants me to get impatient and roll over for his initial interpretation just to keep the game moving.

He sounds like a little bitch who wants things to always go his way, you need to set the tone of the game. Put your foot down and they'll learn. I would never let an opponent try and pull a fast one on me. Definitely never back down from people like this.

Even so, the second game I played against him (at 1500 points) seemed like a far more legitimate list, and he still stomped me to the point that he had nearly double the VP, and I had only one model left on the table. I'll try to post those lists later.

Yeah, even 1850 or 2000 minimum would be pretty ideal for you guys. And yes, please post lists!

30k vs 40k is fine imho. Btw does the 25% limit on Low still apply if using a cad?

CAD is a 40k thing. 30k armies have thier own org chart.

But as it's technically a supplement to the main rules is there anything which would stop you using a cad

Welp, just got back from another game versus Tyranids. Despite things going about as well as I could hope, what with my knight titan actually -doing- something, I still lost 10 to 20 vp. Once again, my opponent drew into 6 VP on the second to last turn, and then another 6 the next.

SO NEW TACTIC

Is it viable to build a Slaaneshi chaos list around tabling my opponent every game? I'm tired of Maelstrom pulling this crap on me, and the more random factors I can eliminate, the better.

Probably not. Wiping out units is easy. Tabling an army is hard, and it only takes one dude to survive somewhere and the plan falls over.

Have you been using the Tactical warlord traits? They're quite good at providing a buffer against the Tactical Objectives Deck betraying you....which may help more than a slight combat boost.

Nothing stops you using a (loyalist) knight gallant, by the way - it just means it's a Come The Apocalypse ally - with downsides for deployment, etc - but if you're sending it charging off at the enemy, that's probably not too much of an issue.

There is no Unbound for 30k. His list is highly illegal. You get one LoW choice which can cost no more than 25% of the total. 30k rules specifically say they have to use their own force org.

Play Maestrom missions. His army is fairly slow. Yes he has big expensive transports. But he has very slow guys and not a lot of them once the transports are down.

Don't waste your time with melta. Every vehicle he has can get ceramite armor. Bring plasma and melta bombs.

Also limit your points to 2k. That is the point where 40k and 30k are pretty closely balanced. Now truthfully you are playing a underpowered codex vs a fairly average codex, but cutting down points makes him think about what he is bringing. If you are going to play Apoc missions then expect chedder.

As a player of 30k primarily, this dude is the kind of guy that gives 30k players a bad name.

locarno24 wrote:
Probably not. Wiping out units is easy. Tabling an army is hard, and it only takes one dude to survive somewhere and the plan falls over.

Have you been using the Tactical warlord traits? They're quite good at providing a buffer against the Tactical Objectives Deck betraying you....which may help more than a slight combat boost.

Nothing stops you using a (loyalist) knight gallant, by the way - it just means it's a Come The Apocalypse ally - with downsides for deployment, etc - but if you're sending it charging off at the enemy, that's probably not too much of an issue.

Thing is, I already pick Tactical Warlord Traits specifically because of my Maelstrom problems. This thing of my opponents pulling out double my VP at the end of a game is including that buffer.

On the subject of knights, I think I'll take the Chaos variants. The gallant is nice, but for one less attack I can get a nasty shooting weapon, and that Foereaper that adds +1 on the D chart against select enemies. As mentioned earlier, the Chaos Paladin was the real MVP against that nid player.

Not that I imagine it could help too much, but while I'm desperately trying to get ahead in VP instead of just tabling my opponent I was thinking a couple of Arvus Lighters could help. I have one finished, and another in the queue, and I'm -hoping- a fast transport option or two will help me out.

The Chaos Knights are good. Against Tyranids, they're ridiculously good - because you pay no extra points for the devastating special rule on the Foe-Reaper chainsword - but the Daemon Knight Of rule makes them good against anyone.

Except Daemon Knight of Slaanesh. For the power that the original 'chaos knight' household was aligned with, it's a damn cruddy rule compared to the other three!

Yeah, reading through all of this, your problem isn't that you're playing against a 30K army, but that you're playing against someone who is cheating you.

It's sad, as it's jackasses like that who help perpetuate the anti-FW sentiment with their cheating.