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Has the interaction between Savant Lock and Jink changed with the new 7E codex? Previously, Jink was not allowed with Savant Lock since the Jinking model was not targeted. As far as I can tell, Savant Lock is still not a shooting attack, so it should not trigger Jink, therefore, on a 5+ they get a missile up their backside, Jink or no Jink.

Another question I have is if a model is the target of the Skyspear Missile Launcher, but said model successfully Jinks to avoid getting hit, does Savant Lock get triggered?

as far as I know, if the Skyspear fails to hit it has the savant lock effect, not sure if jink would count as missing though, I thought jink was done after hitting and rolling to pen

Yes, and no, in that order.


Since you don't declare someone as a target with Savant Lock, you skip the stage where someone can declare they're jinking as a response (just like a blast scattering off the original target onto a nearby bike squad). So you can jink the original shot but not a savant lock.

Jink is a cover save, so it's saving a penetrating or glancing hit - i.e. a hit has occured and you won't get to trigger savant lock (it's no different to hitting a knight's Ion shield). Narratively, the missile has gotten close enough and gone in for a terminal attack and the target has juuuuust jinked away at the last minute as it goes off.

locarno24 wrote:
Since you don't declare someone as a target with Savant Lock, you skip the stage where someone can declare they're jinking as a response (just like a blast scattering off the original target onto a nearby bike squad). So you can jink the original shot but not a savant lock.

I disagree. The target is just already declared and the shooting player doesn't get to change it in this situation.

But this is going off of memory, and I would have to look up Savant Lock to be sure.

Charistoph wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Since you don't declare someone as a target with Savant Lock, you skip the stage where someone can declare they're jinking as a response (just like a blast scattering off the original target onto a nearby bike squad). So you can jink the original shot but not a savant lock.

I disagree. The target is just already declared and the shooting player doesn't get to change it in this situation.

But this is going off of memory, and I would have to look up Savant Lock to be sure.

you don't target with Savant Lock. On a 5+ you just automatically score a hit. It isn't even called out as an attack.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Since you don't declare someone as a target with Savant Lock, you skip the stage where someone can declare they're jinking as a response (just like a blast scattering off the original target onto a nearby bike squad). So you can jink the original shot but not a savant lock.

I disagree. The target is just already declared and the shooting player doesn't get to change it in this situation.

But this is going off of memory, and I would have to look up Savant Lock to be sure.

you don't target with Savant Lock. On a 5+ you just automatically score a hit. It isn't even called out as an attack.

"on a 5+, the target unit suffers a hit... with the profile above."

Sure looks like there is a Targeting involved and an Attack made. It's kind of a delayed twin-linked in process.

While I'd like them to get a jink as well, it's harder than when a unit is covered by a scattered template. I can back-and-forth all day with someone who wants to deny a jink save then. Partly because the RAW works both ways, and partly because I think it's fair.

In this case, you'll run out of return fire. The target selection, and yeah there was a target selection, happened on a previous turn and jinking has since worn off.

It would be nice if they'd have written a better and more consistent rule for both jinking and going to ground, like you make that choice at the beginning of the turn for both, and then live with it until next beginning of turn- right now you can go to ground too easy, and jink too hard.

By the same token one can only jink for so long before that missile catches up to you, and it's going to interfere with your jinking having a missile on your tail.

Charistoph wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Since you don't declare someone as a target with Savant Lock, you skip the stage where someone can declare they're jinking as a response (just like a blast scattering off the original target onto a nearby bike squad). So you can jink the original shot but not a savant lock.

I disagree. The target is just already declared and the shooting player doesn't get to change it in this situation.

But this is going off of memory, and I would have to look up Savant Lock to be sure.

you don't target with Savant Lock. On a 5+ you just automatically score a hit. It isn't even called out as an attack.

"on a 5+, the target unit suffers a hit... with the profile above."

Sure looks like there is a Targeting involved and an Attack made. It's kind of a delayed twin-linked in process.

it never says anything about an attack, let alone a shooting attack. It just says on a 5+ the target unit suffers a hit. You can only Jink if an attack is made. If they wanted it to be a shooting attack they would have said you roll for an attack at BS2. Also, there is no To-Hit roll being made so Junk can't be declared.

You declare Jink before a to-hit roll, so you can still jink, even if no to hit rll is made. Or do you believe yuo cannot jink a blast?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You declare Jink before a to-hit roll, so you can still jink, even if no to hit rll is made. Or do you believe yuo cannot jink a blast?

True. So basically Savant Lock is a poor man's version of Missile Lock? It was better last codex with it never having the word Target in the rules.

To declare a Jink it requieres 2 things:
1) When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.
2) The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.

Savant Lock is not a shooting attack, so the Jinking unit can never be the target for a SHOOTING ATTACK. (Target or not target)

Savant Lock is not a shooting attack,

Your evidence to support this claim is....?

Savant lock is triggered by a shooting attack -to paraphrase- "If any shot misses...."

Savant Lock wrote:If any shot from a weapon with this special rule misses a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature, Skimmer or Jetbike, roll a D6 at the start of the next friendly Shooting phase if the target unit is still on the battlefield and has not been destroyed. On a 5+, the target unit suffers a hit (using its rear Armour Value if it is a vehicle) with the profile above.

I guessed everyone was talking about that posible extra hit if the actual shooting attack miss.

As you said, "it's triggered by a shooting attack" that doesn't make it a shooting attack, it happens at the start of the shooting phase, but nowhere it says it's a shooting attack.

-Target alive
-Roll D6
-On 5+ resolve with this profile

Taking a fragment from the discussion from "Bombs are shooting attacks", That hit does not met the main characteristic of a shooting attack: A firing Unit.

The hunter may be destroyed during your oponents turn, but the Savant Lock roll happens anyway at your next shooting phase.

-On 5+ resolve with this profile

Which profile?

If any shot from a weapon with this special rule misses a (snip target unit types as currently irrelevant rule postings) roll a D6 (snip currently irrelevant to discussion target restrictions but point out it is a target) on a 5+ the target unit suffers a hit, using (snip) if it is a vehicle

It doesn't tell you which profile to use, but it pretty strongly suggests using the profile of the weapon that missed, yes?

Breton wrote:

Savant Lock is not a shooting attack,

Your evidence to support this claim is....?

Savant lock is triggered by a shooting attack -to paraphrase- "If any shot misses...."

It is triggered by a shooting attack from a different turn though. And all it says is on a 5+ the target takes a hit from the mission's profile. It it is a shooting attack, what happens if I move my Hunter out of range of the target or out of line of sight? What happens if I move cruising speed? The answer to those things is nothing changes, because on a 5+ the target takes a hit, period.

Breton wrote:
It doesn't tell you which profile to use, but it pretty strongly suggests using the profile of the weapon that missed, yes?

Yes, that weapon's profile. Also, using a profile to resolve a hit, doesn't mean you fire the weapon with that profile again (if so, the Savant lock would trigger again the very next turn if you do not roll a 5+)
And again, no firing unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It is triggered by a shooting attack from a different turn though. And all it says is on a 5+ the target takes a hit from the mission's profile. It it is a shooting attack, what happens if I move my Hunter out of range of the target or out of line of sight? What happens if I move cruising speed? The answer to those things is nothing changes, because on a 5+ the target takes a hit, period.

As he said plus the Hunter may even be destroyed by the start of the next friendly shooting phase and the savant lock would also be triggered.

It is triggered by a shooting attack from a different turn though.

Actually- the special rule was applied when the shot missed, so Savant Lock is part of that same shooting/melee attack that applied the rule.

The roll is triggered by the start of a friendly shooting phase.

If the weapon with the rule was a shooting weapon this is a shooting attack. If the weapon that triggered the rule was a melee weapon it's a melee attack. Irregardless, as a continuation of a previous attack, the selected as a target was during a previous turn precluding jinking (at least due to Savant lock)

If it is a shooting attack, where is range determined from? What happens if the target moves, do I remeasure range? Does it count toward the number of weapons the Hunter can fire at full BS? If my Hunter moves at Cruising Speed, is Savant Lock resolved at BS1? But wait, it isn't resolved at BS, if I move at Cruising Speed what happens to the Savant Lock since only shots with a BS can be fired as Snap Shots.

I would say it's determined from the firing unit to the target when the shot is originally fired.

Breton wrote:
If the weapon with the rule was a shooting weapon this is a shooting attack. If the weapon that triggered the rule was a melee weapon it's a melee attack. Irregardless, as a continuation of a previous attack, the selected as a target was during a previous turn precluding jinking (at least due to Savant lock)

So, for example:
Acid Blood is triggered by a melee attack, so, it's a melee attack? No, it's a hit on a initiative test and with profile: S5 AP2 Ignore cover.

Savant Lock is triggered by a shooting attack. It's a hit on a 5+ with profile: S7 AP2 Heavy1, Armourbane, Savant lock, Skyfire.
If it were a shooting attack, and you roll 4- is a shooting attack that misses with the rule Savant lock, so, next friendly shooting phase, you would roll again a 5+ for Savant Lock, Ad-Infinitum until you hit, the target is dead or the game ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:
I would say it's determined from the firing unit to the target when the shot is originally fired.

Which is the Firing unit? The unit that misses in first place? and Why WHEN it first misses? it's a shoot that takes 1 complete game turn to reach the objective? because after you fire the weapon for the first time, and miss, and your enemy destroy your hunter, at the start of your next shooting phase, you roll that 5+ to hit... from nowhere, because there is no firing unit anymore at the moment to check if it hits...

Acid Blood is triggered by a melee attack, so, it's a melee attack? No, it's a hit on a initiative test and with profile: S5 AP2 Ignore cover.

I don't know what Acid Blood is, that's a different rule, and apparently provides a profile, so it's a different wording.

Savant Lock is triggered by a shooting attack. It's a hit on a 5+ with profile: S7 AP2 Heavy1, Armourbane, Savant lock, Skyfire.

The profile is not part of the rule. The rule is not written with any specified weapon or unit, even though it's a special rule only available for one unit as far as I can tell.

Savant Lock has certain properties.

The weapon used to trigger Savant Lock has certain properties.

Savant Lock does not universally gain any properties from the weapon because right now the only way we understand it is through it's interaction with this unit and this weapon.

Which is the Firing unit? The unit that misses in first place?

Yes, that's pretty integral to the Savant Lock rule.

and Why WHEN it first misses?

Because that's when the shot that applied Savant Lock happened. Technically you'd measure before you know if it hits or it misses, but a hit doesn't apply Savant Lock

it's a shoot that takes 1 complete game turn to reach the objective?

No, it's a shot that may take multiple turns to resolve. If you kill my scout bikes the booby trapped terrain doesn't lose it's booby trap, if you kill my psyker that permanently lowered your stats, you don't get your stats back.

because after you fire the weapon for the first time, and miss, and your enemy destroy your hunter, at the start of your next shooting phase, you roll that 5+ to hit... from nowhere, because there is no firing unit anymore at the moment to check if it hits...

You roll a 5+ to hit from nowhere because the shot has already been fired from within range on a previous turn whether the Hunter is still on the board or not.

Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

Well I wouldn't call it a reroll, because it's not, and rerolls have various rules applied to them, like not rerolling a reroll making Savant lock illegal after the first 5+ roll failed, but I would say it's mimicking and running parallel to the reroll mechanic.

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

Except Twin-Linked IS a reroll. Savant Lock is not. It is a completely separate attack.

Except Twin-Linked IS a reroll. Savant Lock is not.

correct

It is a completely separate attack.

Incorrect. You do not nominate a unit, choose a weapon, measure range, or check LoS. It may or may not be a continuation as I claim, but it's not in any way shape or form completely separate from the original attack.

Breton wrote:
I don't know what Acid Blood is, that's a different rule, and apparently provides a profile, so it's a different wording.

Tyranid Biomorph, that triggers when the model with it suffers a wound in CC.

Breton wrote:
The profile is not part of the rule. The rule is not written with any specified weapon or unit, even though it's a special rule only available for one unit as far as I can tell.

Yes, the Savant Lock rule is listed with the Skyspear Missile Launcher, the profile above the rule is the Skyspear Missile Launcher profile. But you are not firing it again. You are not rolling to hit with the BS of the Hunter

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

T-L weapons tell you to re-roll al fail to hit rolls, so you take that many and reroll like shooting again, same BS, same LoS, same Armour Facing, same everything as the first time.
And Savant is not a re-roll to hit, if you re roll you woudn't use 5+ but the hunter BS to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Except Twin-Linked IS a reroll. Savant Lock is not.

correct

It is a completely separate attack.

Incorrect. You do not nominate a unit, choose a weapon, measure range, or check LoS. It may or may not be a continuation as I claim, but it's not in any way shape or form completely separate from the original attack.

According to Fluff on Skyspear Missile Launcher, is that same missile that missed that turns around and tries to hit the Flyer it failed to hit the first time. (that's why it says to resolve it against rear armour)
Following that It's not a new shooting attack.

Anyway Breton You just justified why not Jinking allowed:
"You do not nominate a unit, choose a weapon, measure range, or check LoS"
So, no new declaring targeting unit -> No jinking.

Breton wrote:

Except Twin-Linked IS a reroll. Savant Lock is not.

correct

It is a completely separate attack.

Incorrect. You do not nominate a unit, choose a weapon, measure range, or check LoS. It may or may not be a continuation as I claim, but it's not in any way shape or form completely separate from the original attack.

In that case, you can't jink. You would have to have Jinked the initial attack since that was the attack that selected you as a target. And since you can't roll Jink against the same attack twice, you would not be able to Jink the Savant Lock.

Wallur wrote:

Breton wrote:
I don't know what Acid Blood is, that's a different rule, and apparently provides a profile, so it's a different wording.

Tyranid Biomorph, that triggers when the model with it suffers a wound in CC.

I meant I didn't know if it was CC or Ranged.

Breton wrote:
The profile is not part of the rule. The rule is not written with any specified weapon or unit, even though it's a special rule only available for one unit as far as I can tell.

Yes, the Savant Lock rule is listed with the Skyspear Missile Launcher, the profile above the rule is the Skyspear Missile Launcher profile. But you are not firing it again. You are not rolling to hit with the BS of the Hunter

No, you're still resolving the previous firing. You went through the process, then Savant Lock tells you to keep resolving the shot in a certain way until one of a couple conditions are met.

So...
Either it is:
1) A different attack that is not a shooting attack, not selecting target, etc. so you can't jink.
Or
2) A continuation or part of the same attack and being part of the same attack you do not declare again* firing unit, target, weapon etc, so you can't jink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only way you could get a Jink save against a Savant Lock, is if you have a Psyker to cast a witchfire on that same target, (your Psychic phase is before your shooting phase) and since witchfire are treated as shooting attacks, you can declare a Jink there, that lasts unit the start of their next movement phase, including the start of your shooting phase.

casvalremdeikun wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

Except Twin-Linked IS a reroll. Savant Lock is not. It is a completely separate attack.

No, Savant Lock still provides a Reroll To-Hit, the timing is just vastly different from the normal Rerolls that we see. Nothing in Savant Lock tells us that it is anything else, really.

Wallur wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

T-L weapons tell you to re-roll al fail to hit rolls, so you take that many and reroll like shooting again, same BS, same LoS, same Armour Facing, same everything as the first time.
And Savant is not a re-roll to hit, if you re roll you woudn't use 5+ but the hunter BS to hit.

So what? Not all Rerolls To-Hit are Twin-Linked. Not all Rerolls are made using the same target Roll. Or are you forgetting how BS 6-9 work? The target of the Reroll definitely does not match the initial roll in these situations. So, too, does Savant's Reroll not occur at the same target. Now, because the reroll happens in a different time instead of instantly, the Facing and LOS are going to change, and so are properly addressed in the rule.

It's really not that complicated a concept.

Now, whether this allows a Jink based on this off-timed Reroll is a different story, entirely.