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Charistoph wrote:

Spoiler:

casvalremdeikun wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

Except Twin-Linked IS a reroll. Savant Lock is not. It is a completely separate attack.

No, Savant Lock still provides a Reroll To-Hit, the timing is just vastly different from the normal Rerolls that we see. Nothing in Savant Lock tells us that it is anything else, really.

Wallur wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Yet it is the rule of a Shooting Attack to do so. If a Twin-Linked weapon misses on the first roll, is it no longee a Shooting Attack?

In the end, that's all Savant Lock is, a Reroll To-Hit. It just takes a lot longer for the Reroll to trigger than Twin-Linked provides.

T-L weapons tell you to re-roll al fail to hit rolls, so you take that many and reroll like shooting again, same BS, same LoS, same Armour Facing, same everything as the first time.
And Savant is not a re-roll to hit, if you re roll you woudn't use 5+ but the hunter BS to hit.

So what? Not all Rerolls To-Hit are Twin-Linked. Not all Rerolls are made using the same target Roll. Or are you forgetting how BS 6-9 work? The target of the Reroll definitely does not match the initial roll in these situations. So, too, does Savant's Reroll not occur at the same target. Now, because the reroll happens in a different time instead of instantly, the Facing and LOS are going to change, and so are properly addressed in the rule.

It's really not that complicated a concept.

Now, whether this allows a Jink based on this off-timed Reroll is a different story, entirely.

Ok, I give you that BS6-9 does not require to roll with the same to hit roll (except for BS9). But All Re-Rolls are in the same circumstances as the original roll,
"Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again. The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll."

Savant Lock, is not a re-roll, The actual attack has to fail so the savan't lock triggers, works like a re-roll but it's not, all rules that makes you take a Re-Roll specifies you CAN RE-ROLL, rules like Fleet, Monster Hunter, Rules for BS6-9, TW, all those rules have the words "YOU CAN RE-ROLL." on the rules. Savant Lock does not have the words "YOU CAN RE-ROLL" so it's not a Re-Roll. Also, you can ALWAYS chose to Re-Roll (or your opponent can chose to make you re-roll), maybe you don't want the re-roll. Savant Lock is not a re-roll because you are forced to roll if the Attack Failed as long as the failed to hit enemy is alive.

Also, not being a re-roll, it stacks with re-rolls:
You fire the Skyspear Missile Launcher, get 1. You Re-Roll Skyspear Missile Launcher (supose a psyker gave the hunter, Monster Hunter) get a 1. At the start of your next shooting phase, you roll 5+ for the Savant Lock rule, because you FAILED TO HIT with the Skyspear Missile Launcher.

Wallur wrote:
Ok, I give you that BS6-9 does not require to roll with the same to hit roll (except for BS9).

Really? 2+ then a 3+ isn't different? BS 10 provides a BS 5 Twin-Linked affect.

Wallur wrote:
But All Re-Rolls are in the same circumstances as the original roll,
"Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again. The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll."

Savant Lock, is not a re-roll, The actual attack has to fail so the savan't lock triggers, works like a re-roll but it's not, all rules that makes you take a Re-Roll specifies you CAN RE-ROLL, rules like Fleet, Monster Hunter, Rules for BS6-9, TW, all those rules have the words "YOU CAN RE-ROLL." on the rules. Savant Lock does not have the words "YOU CAN RE-ROLL" so it's not a Re-Roll. Also, you can ALWAYS chose to Re-Roll (or your opponent can chose to make you re-roll), maybe you don't want the re-roll. Savant Lock is not a re-roll because you are forced to roll if the Attack Failed as long as the failed to hit enemy is alive.

Also, not being a re-roll, it stacks with re-rolls:
You fire the Skyspear Missile Launcher, get 1. You Re-Roll Skyspear Missile Launcher (supose a psyker gave the hunter, Monster Hunter) get a 1. At the start of your next shooting phase, you roll 5+ for the Savant Lock rule, because you FAILED TO HIT with the Skyspear Missile Launcher.

And a reroll triggers when? When the stars are right? That's not correct. In most cases it triggers BECAUSE YOU FAILED TO HIT the target number. Gee, that sounds familiar, where have I heard that before...

You are correct that it would still trigger off of a failed original rerolled shot. In this case, it doesn't completely act like a reroll. However, for the purposes of determining Jink, it could be used to qualify as such in terms of defining the Attack as Shooting.

But then the real question lies simply in the fact of it being registered as a new attack, or just a delay of a previous Attack. If considered a new Attack, there is no doubt that a target would Jink. If considered a delay of a previous missed Attack, the attempt to Jink has, technically, already occurred.

In terms of good sportsmanship, I would let my opponent attempt to Jink it, if they wanted to. Remember, Jink is a double-edged sword, and comes with a price, and if my opponent is willing to accept the price, so am I. And fluff-wise, how often do we see pilots jinking to avoid a missile that has already missed them once? Not saying that's how the rules necessarily go, just I'm willing to work with it.

Charistoph,
Re-rolls trigger for a wide range of reasons, some can even be used after successful To Hits, so the only answer to 'when do they occur' is going to be 'when the Rule states they occur.' Thus, I am still unsure why 'is it a Re-roll?' is even a question being asked in this situation. It is only a Re-roll if the Special Rule itself tells you to carry out the Re-rolling process. If the Special Rule tells you to do something completely different to the dice roll, without stating that it is a Re-roll, why would it ever be considered a Re-roll from a Rule as Written perspective?

Charistoph,
I mixed BS9 with BS10, sorry 'bout that.

It may look like a re-roll, because you are rolling again to see if it hits... what I mean to not call it a re-roll, is that the first roll is for a hit with the Skyspear Missile Launcher, the second 5+ roll, is to hit with the Savant Lock. A re-roll would mean you roll again for the Skyspear Missile Launcher.

Also, if it were a re-roll, it woudn't specify which profile to use, re-rolls NEVER specify which profile to use, because you are rolling again with the same weapon. Savant specially tells you to use the profile above, a profile that is outside the rule.

Again, if that 5+ is a re-roll for the Skyspear Missile Launcher, means that if you get a 4, yo missed with Skyspear Missile Launcher and the next shooting phase you have to roll again for a 5+. Being it not a re roll, once you fail that 5+, you don't have another roll 5+ the next turn.

The most obvious reason it isn't a reroll besides the fact that it isn't a rerolls the fact that a squadron of Hunters can reroll their dice for Savant Lock. Since you can't reroll a reroll, Savant Lock CAN'T be a reroll.