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I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

So we have a method of boosting BS (pretty much the same over all effect as twin linking for example). The ignore cover save yeah, its a strong one, but so are a large number of other psychic powers that when cast onto the correct units.

I just dont get the hate, and I've played as Tau and against Tau for a very long time. And in the case of DE... Well, I guess Tau are just the sissors to their wet paper units. Bad match ups... we all have them.

Everything is scissors to the Dark Eldar's wet paper bags....

Dry paper bags are far easier to cut with scissors :-p.

Being wet doesn't stop the Dark Elder from being quite easy to cut.

On a slightly seperate note, I remember a WD article back in 3rd which covered a GW tournament and 3 of the top 10 armies included Dark Eldar, each force had 6 warrior units with 2 DLs each and something extra like 3 ravegers(?). Back then having 21 Dark Lance shots placed high in tournaments... oh how times have changed - that would be less firepower than a basic grav cent unit these days.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

Or you can focus on them first and kill them and completely cripple the rest of the Tau players army. I still fail to see how killing something that is only T3 or T4 with a 4+ or 5+ save is that hard to kill, especially since if they are on Pathfinders they HAVE to be setup in line of sight since they are Heavy Weapons and would be forced to fire Snap Shots if they move. If you have not figured that out yet there are some other things that need to be worked out with your forces.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

And prior to 6th edition, psychic powers completely dominated Tau, because there was simply nothing to do but bend over and take it. In sixth edition they had no way of stopping buffs and only got their 6+ DTW if the other guy targeted them. Now, we get an abismal number of dice against any insane number that the other guy can generate.

So yeah. Markerlights are our powers. Be thankful that we have to roll to hit on a 4+, 6+ if the unit had to move. I'd much rather have a psycher who can hide in squads and buff to his hearts content only failing on a perils.

DaPino wrote:


I'd seriously like you to show me the math. I've done it over and over against AV11, a hammerhead should have 23% chance of exploding it instantly.
If I'm doing this wrong, just tell me and that'll be that, you'll be right and I'll be wrong, no need to be so condescending.

For a BS5 hammerhead with ignores cover
1 shot
BS 5 so 0.833333... hits or a 83.33% chance to hit.
AV11 so needing a 2 to pen means 0.833333....*0.833333... = 69.44% chance to pen
Needing a 5 to explode, meaning 0.6944444...*0.33333 clearly = 0,23 or 23% chance to get an explodes result.

If that's wrong, fine, I just figured that's how it was. You'll have changed my view, just as you wanted.
Also, I did not ignore the fact that other things have a way bigger chance of glancing things to death because of their increased volume of shots, but that's just not what we're discussing. I said I'm bothered by the hammerheads increased chance to kill a vehicle in 1 shot on turn one, not because of it's immense anti-tank capabilities. Not a single unit I've named has a realistic potential to glance a vehicle to death turn one, unless I'm doing the math incorrectly again, in which case I'd be more than happy to believe you providing you give me some math.
True, all of the units I've listed are considered sub-par, but so is the hammerhead so I don't see why I can't compare them.

You ran the numbers on AV11, the chemira has 12 in the front. apperantly that's what led to your missed numbers.
Does not change the fact that even against AV11, the result of the havocs would be better than the hammerhead, buffed or not. all the numbers i crunched are against AV12

Even at 23% to blow up an AV11, it means the hammer is useless even against that. clocking at 191 for a buffed hammer, to kill JUST a 35 point rhino? (possibly FREE rhino)
Do you honestly believe its a viable choice for a serious game? a "dedicated anti-tank" unit, that has a 23% to kill a tank less that is less then a fifth of its cost? in what world is that anywhere near efficient?

And what do you mean you "its not what we are talking about" with glances? how is dying to a couple of glances any different then dying to an explode result? the fact the opponent rolls more dice makes it somehow more interactive to you?

You say not a single one of the units you named as a realistic chance to glace anything to death, after I JUST crunched you the numbers and showed that in fact they got a better kill chance then the hammerhead, points compared. and this IS a game of points, not modelcount.

The worst of it, you say yourself that the hammerhead is subpar! why are we even arguing there!
The hammerhead needs improving! the fact the tri-las also needs improved not not contradict it. the fact havocs might be in need of improving also does not (though after running havoc numvers, they are not too bad)

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

So we have a method of boosting BS (pretty much the same over all effect as twin linking for example). The ignore cover save yeah, its a strong one, but so are a large number of other psychic powers that when cast onto the correct units.

I just dont get the hate, and I've played as Tau and against Tau for a very long time. And in the case of DE... Well, I guess Tau are just the sissors to their wet paper units. Bad match ups... we all have them.

I kind of understand where you're comming from, but psykers in general are far more expensive than markerlights. 2x8 Pathfinders (what you need to score 6 markerlights on average) cost 176 points, and generally speaking you get about 2 mastery levels for that. That's not nearly enough to base a reliable psychic phase on. It's just an example, but the comparisson only grows larger as the amount of points go up because you get a markerlight for every 11 points you spend (or 12 if it's marker drones IIRC). The cost for a ML varies wildly, because you need to buy a unit which can cost anywhere from 65 to 200+ for a single ML, but some of those can be upgraded to ML3 for 50 points.

Bottom line is, it's not as easy to stock up on ML's as it is to stock up on markers, unless you're playing Chaos daemons or Grey knights that is. If I play CSM and I stack up to the max, I'll maybe get to ML9 (single force org)? And that's using units everyone considers to be sub-par to say the least (Ahriman and thousand sons). Right, I'm going to have a strong psychic phase right there, that's true. If I can get Ahriman close, we're probably looking at a dead unit each turn in the psychic phase. But it costs me 865 points to get him the warp charges he needs in order to do that (well he probably could do with a bit less, with the D6 I get and all).

 Jayden63 wrote:


And prior to 6th edition, psychic powers completely dominated Tau, because there was simply nothing to do but bend over and take it. In sixth edition they had no way of stopping buffs and only got their 6+ DTW if the other guy targeted them. Now, we get an abismal number of dice against any insane number that the other guy can generate.

So yeah. Markerlights are our powers. Be thankful that we have to roll to hit on a 4+, 6+ if the unit had to move. I'd much rather have a psycher who can hide in squads and buff to his hearts content only failing on a perils.

Or failing because he can't get enough passes on his psychic test? You just literally said that we should be thankful that you need a 4+ to hit while completely ignoring that psykers need 1 or more 4+'s to get a power to go off (and if it's a witchfire, you need to roll to hit aswell, so the chance of that going through to the end are even lower). And even if the power goes off, you have a slight chance of denying it.

Read the first part of my post, it's not nearly as easy to get insane numbers of mastery levels as you make it out to be.

Prior to 6th edition, that's kind of key here. They changed it because they saw it was a problem and now some people are perceiving markerlights to be a problem because :

There was simply nothing to do but bend over and take it. In sixth edition they had no way of stopping buffs

Replace the word "was" by "is" and "buffs" by "markerlights" (and maybe "sixth" with "seventh").

You are blaming psychic powers for being OP because of reasons that are exactly the same reasons why people hate markerlights. And I think I'll need to say this again, but I don't think Tau nor markerlights are OP, just annoying and not fun to play against. I just wanted to point out that your point was kind of unfair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

.....

We are having wildly different discussion here. You are trying to prove to me that "Tau (or in this case hammerheads) are not OP", but that was never my intended discussion. I know that they're not OP, I said they were annoying and not fun to play against.
Yes it's true, every single unit I've listed is more damaging to vehicles. But what I find so annoying about hammerheads (and Tau in general) is their ability to do it in one turn (which is especially bothersome and not fun if it happens turn 1). You can't rely on it, but when it happens I can't help but think "Well, it's going to be one of those games again" because I just lost quite a chunk of my army without being able to do anything about it and that unit was basicly a paperweight I put on the table because it wasn't able to do anything about it.

And the thing is, I don't know why we're still dwelling on that hammerhead either, so let's drop it altogether okay?

I don't care about it's capabilities to win, I care about how fun it is to play. I'm going to skip over the hammerhead because as you've said it's not such a commonsight. What is a common sight however, is missilesides.
I know that a majority of Tau players that Broadsides are too strong. And while I agree that having a more internally balanced codex will allow Tau players to have a more varying army resulting in less broadsides, that does not change the current state Tau are in.

Now what bothers me about missilesides is that they have the ability to grind anything into the dirt in one turn. Again I don't care about it's capabilities of dishing out damage over the course of an entire game, but rather the damage it deals in one turn because that is what makes Tau a bother to play against. A broadside unit that has a single markerlight as support (so BS4 broadside and BS3 drones) is very likely to destroy an AV12 target in cover.

If Tau gets first turn, that's probably 3 vehicles gone without them being able to do so much as move. I don't care whether that's going to win or lose me the game in the end, it's boring and it means a fair chunk of my army is basicly a paperweight because all I did was set them up and put them back in their box.
And I see you coming from a mile away, yes there's always going to be models that don't do anything but step on and off the battlefield, but it's never as much the case as with Tau. I rarely have to take 3 whole units of the board before they get to do something, but it's becomming a common occurence with Tau.

And again, the end result doesn't bother me. I can win against Tau, they're not THAT strong. But it's god damn boring and tedious to do so.

What.
Just what.

All the other units CAN DO IT ON ONE TURN AND BETTER.
What the flying duck is your argument here?
"Its wrong when tau can shoot something T1, despite everyone else doing it, often better"?

If tau has first turn, its probably 3 vehicles gone? yea, you play like a scrub. against a good player I find it hard to garantee a single kill when I'm first. stop blaming tau if you can't take minimal precausions.
Broadsides has only 36" range and are immobile, rail weapons proven to be worthless even when markered (again 36" of immobile). if your tanks are not bumrushing like morons, they won't die like morons.
If you ARE bumrushing like a moron, the only one not using any stratagy and tactics, is you.
Furthermore, have you even read the TOPIC of this thread?

Plus, 176 area getting you 2 mastery points? what are you smoking?
2 mastery points can be achieved, with ease, at 85 points for CSM, 90 for SM, 110 for inqusition, 70 for deamons, (they can get 3 at 95) 70 for eldar, (100 for three), 75 for IG, etc, etc.
If mastery spam is what you are after, its not that hard. paying 175 for two is absurdly high.

That's if we allow ourselves to forget that most psykers take much more to kill than pathfinders as they can hide in units, often got useful CC equipment, and sometimes are freaking monsters. yaknow, in case that ever comes up.

Assuming a single force org, and that's a dumb assumption, a pure CSM force can net 6 mastery levels with 2 level 3 sorcerers with familiars each, at 250 points.
So, they get 6 spells to work with (up to 8 if you get focuses), re rolling failed harness tests, supply LD10 to the units that cover them, are not immobile, pack force weapons and WS5 so they provide relevant CC stats, and fill mandatory HQ slots for your extra force orgs if you want, giving you spread rather than taking it.

Sure, you could pack 22 pathfinder there, and they WILL provide better shooting buffs (11 marks on average), but they will not provide the rest of the support abilities, and will be limited by their own flaws.
So in the end, 2 sorcerers and the 22 pathfinders? provide similar value.


(PS, marker drones are 14 points when not in squads, and are BS2.)


I've lost hope of reasonable discussion with you.
Not a single thing you said, on any subject, has any relation to how the game actually works.
Not going to bother with you any more.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

Or you can focus on them first and kill them and completely cripple the rest of the Tau players army. I still fail to see how killing something that is only T3 or T4 with a 4+ or 5+ save is that hard to kill, especially since if they are on Pathfinders they HAVE to be setup in line of sight since they are Heavy Weapons and would be forced to fire Snap Shots if they move. If you have not figured that out yet there are some other things that need to be worked out with your forces.

Killing something before it kills you is not a counter - it called battle - a battle that tau tend to win automatically if they go first. I've had a buffmander deathstar take out 5 units coming out of deep strike before. He didn't even need to roll exceptionally well for that to happen.

Riptides are OP, markerlgihts are OP, and 1 unit coming out of DS without scatter and taking out 3-5 units is also OP.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I have always viewed Tau markerlights as our psychic powers. Other armies get to twin link a unit of thier choice, or make my units explode in some way or another, or turn something of theirs invisable or stupidly strong and tough. Or any number of choice crazily abuisable powers. And there is nothing a Tau player can do about it. Not a damn thing aside from the lucky Deny the witch if it ever applies.

But you see, that's the thing. While you rely on getting lucky--there is nothing that can be done outside of staying out of range of Markerlights.

If it were an I test or something similar, I don't think there would be an issue.

Or you can focus on them first and kill them and completely cripple the rest of the Tau players army. I still fail to see how killing something that is only T3 or T4 with a 4+ or 5+ save is that hard to kill, especially since if they are on Pathfinders they HAVE to be setup in line of sight since they are Heavy Weapons and would be forced to fire Snap Shots if they move. If you have not figured that out yet there are some other things that need to be worked out with your forces.

Because Cover isn't a thing, right? Once again: Not every army has Ignores Cover rules.

36" is really nothing to sneeze at for Markerlight range.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've had a buffmander deathstar take out 5 units coming out of deep strike before. He didn't even need to roll exceptionally well for that to happen.

What were the units you lost? What was the composition of the deathstar? WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THEM NORMALLY?
What the heck was the deathstar? Farsight & seven bodyguards with Target Lock, EWO and missile pod? that isn't exactly an optimal loadout.

I call ********. oh wait, you mean over several turns? why was the unit alive to do this to you?

If you want to defeat EWOs in deployment, deploy everything on the table. Dang near every army can do this, no? (The only exception (I think) is daemons)

 carldooley wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've had a buffmander deathstar take out 5 units coming out of deep strike before. He didn't even need to roll exceptionally well for that to happen.

What were the units you lost? What was the composition of the deathstar? WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THEM NORMALLY?
What the heck was the deathstar? Farsight & seven bodyguards with Target Lock, EWO and missile pod? that isn't exactly an optimal loadout.

I call ********. oh wait, you mean over several turns? why was the unit alive to do this to you?

If you want to defeat EWOs in deployment, deploy everything on the table. Dang near every army can do this, no? (The only exception (I think) is daemons)

No - in a single turn. They had a variety of weapons. Plasmas, fusions, and missles. He deep struck on me. Into his front lines.

Took out a 5 man GKT and libby/ a rhino/a 5 man purifer/ and a dreadknight. I think it had 7 suits in the squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Because Cover isn't a thing, right? Once again: Not every army has Ignores Cover rules.

36" is really nothing to sneeze at for Markerlight range.

An 8 man squad only needs 2 wounds to force a morale check.
It's a T3 unit. They are 5+ so easy enough to avoid armor and force cover saves.
Put on enough wounds and you can force them to go to ground.
Either way it's not that hard to hurt them badly or make them snap fire.

If a T3, 5+, and low model count unit with poor leadership is something you consider neigh unstoppable then I don't know what to tell you. It's not like they are the only unit to have cover either. How do you kill any unit that has cover? Just do the same thing to the pathfinders, but probably less because they are weak.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Because Cover isn't a thing, right? Once again: Not every army has Ignores Cover rules.

36" is really nothing to sneeze at for Markerlight range.

An 8 man squad only needs 2 wounds to force a morale check.
It's a T3 unit. They are 5+ so easy enough to avoid armor and force cover saves.
Put on enough wounds and you can force them to go to ground.
Either way it's not that hard to hurt them badly or make them snap fire.

If a T3, 5+, and low model count unit with poor leadership is something you consider neigh unstoppable then I don't know what to tell you. It's not like they are the only unit to have cover either. How do you kill any unit that has cover? Just do the same thing to the pathfinders, but probably less because they are weak.

No one has trouble killing pathfinders. In fact - I think pathfinders are a pretty poor choice for marker lights. Drones, characters, and skyrays are a much better choices. However - a few 5 man markerlight squads do their job pretty well - it forces you to shoot them up and they are very cheap units. If you don't shoot them up - you lose pretty quick.

I made a Farsight deathstar one day to see how it would function and I called it the 'Mega Unit' for a reason, the thing cost more then 1024 points to put together!

I would not deny it was a beast once it hit the table in Turn 2, in one round of shooting it appeared that it would alone win the Game as it chew men out of their Unit's in waves. However, good Terrain placement and Deployment by my opponent greatly limited which Units it could freely shoot at and that is a massive factor in dealing with any Deep-striking deathstar. As it was still Tau, it was Tar-pitted as soon as possible and I got to see a Unit that cost more then half my Army doing nothing for the remainder of the Game. I was actually amazed it managed to survive at that point, but armour saves and drone's to take the blows are useful things to have in Close Combat.

Not the worse deathstar out there, but one rarely worth it's costs even before Super-heavies became common place thing.

JinxDragon wrote:
I made a Farsight deathstar one day to see how it would function and I called it the 'Mega Unit' for a reason, the thing cost more then 1024 points to put together!

I would not deny it was a beast once it hit the table in Turn 2, in one round of shooting it appeared that it would alone win the Game as it chew men out of their Unit's in waves. However, good Terrain placement and Deployment by my opponent greatly limited which Units it could freely shoot at and that is a massive factor in dealing with any Deep-striking deathstar. As it was still Tau, it was Tar-pitted as soon as possible and I got to see a Unit that cost more then half my Army doing nothing for the remainder of the Game. I was actually amazed it managed to survive at that point, but armour saves and drone's to take the blows are useful things to have in Close Combat.

Not the worse deathstar out there, but one rarely worth it's costs even before Super-heavies became common place thing.

Getting into CC with is the best way to kill or make useless most deathstars. There is no reason to run this thing without hit and run though.

Honestly... I forgot I had it when it came time to test out the Unit.

 BoomWolf wrote:
What.
Just what.

All the other units CAN DO IT ON ONE TURN AND BETTER.
What the flying duck is your argument here?
"Its wrong when tau can shoot something T1, despite everyone else doing it, often better"?

If tau has first turn, its probably 3 vehicles gone? yea, you play like a scrub. against a good player I find it hard to garantee a single kill when I'm first. stop blaming tau if you can't take minimal precausions.
Broadsides has only 36" range and are immobile, rail weapons proven to be worthless even when markered (again 36" of immobile). if your tanks are not bumrushing like morons, they won't die like morons.
If you ARE bumrushing like a moron, the only one not using any stratagy and tactics, is you.

Well, you're right, staying out of 36" is a sound tactic. Can't really say much about that.
Yet I doubt you'll find lots of units that can take out vehicles easier than broadsides (with markers), altough I can think of a few. I can't say I've faced those units, but I'm pretty sure I'd find them boring aswell.

But come on, "everyone else doing it, often better", do you even believe it yourself? What was that about "looking like a fool" when making unrealistic exaggerations?

 BoomWolf wrote:

Furthermore, have you even read the TOPIC of this thread?

Yes I did, and I said "No, I don't think they're OP, just annoying and boring to play".
That's when people jumped me, trying to prove Tau are not boring and that's how we got here.

Plus, 176 area getting you 2 mastery points? what are you smoking?
2 mastery points can be achieved, with ease, at 85 points for CSM, 90 for SM, 110 for inqusition, 70 for deamons, (they can get 3 at 95) 70 for eldar, (100 for three), 75 for IG, etc, etc.
If mastery spam is what you are after, its not that hard. paying 175 for two is absurdly high.

That's if we allow ourselves to forget that most psykers take much more to kill than pathfinders as they can hide in units, often got useful CC equipment, and sometimes are freaking monsters. yaknow, in case that ever comes up.

Assuming a single force org, and that's a dumb assumption, a pure CSM force can net 6 mastery levels with 2 level 3 sorcerers with familiars each, at 250 points.
So, they get 6 spells to work with (up to 8 if you get focuses), re rolling failed harness tests, supply LD10 to the units that cover them, are not immobile, pack force weapons and WS5 so they provide relevant CC stats, and fill mandatory HQ slots for your extra force orgs if you want, giving you spread rather than taking it.

For someone claiming I make unfair points because I use sub-par units as examples, you certainly made a lot of points there using sub-par units as example.
Yes, 250 gets me 6 mastery levels if I run 2 sorcerers with nothing but ML upgrades and spell familiars, but assuming that's ever going to see the table is just ridiculous.

What does see some play however, is a ML3 sorcerer with a mark of Nurgle on a bike. That's a viable unit, 2 sorcerers on foot are not. That sorcerer costs 160 points, that's how I get to that "ludicrous" amount and I'll give it to you, that's 3 mastery levels, not 2.

But on his own, he isn't going to be useful unless he has some support/ a unit to hide in, just like your pathfinders won't be useful on their own. Commonly, support for HQ's with bikes tend to be either spawn or bikes. Let's say it's going to be bikes because if I can't rely on cover saves, spawn become less durable (unless of course vs AP3 and up).
So if I add 5 bikes (commonly with melta guns and MoN), that'll be 346 in total (20 points under 9 pathfinders and a broadside unit with 6 missile drones) . All in order to have 3 mastery levels that are actually going to be useful in a game instead of in some hypothetical build in which my only objective is to get as much mastery levels as possible regardless of how it will perform.

You told me I looked like a fool because my exaggerations are not based upon reality, yet you would make examples that are at least as unrealistic to support your case.

 BoomWolf wrote:

I've lost hope of reasonable discussion with you.
Not a single thing you said, on any subject, has any relation to how the game actually works.
Not going to bother with you any more.

Maybe that's for the best, because we're still holding two different discussion here.
You're still not getting that I'm not annoyed by the strength of the army, but rather by the army itself and the way it's played. Now I already acknowledged that that isn't the player's fault because it's a mono-build dex, but that doesn't change the fact that I have to face it and it's a boring experience.