Big News for the die hard BattleTech fans... (Shadow Hawk & Ostscout, pg. 9)

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**deleted20250424**

infinite_array wrote:
TalonZahn wrote:

Lots of mechs have cockpits that are dead center in the chest. That makes even less since when you are usually aiming for center mass.

It may be the easiest place to hit, but it's also going to be the best armored part of the mech (on those that aren't prominently jutting out).

A plexiglass window isn't going to be anymore reinforced in the chest as it would be higher up between the shoulders.

The OG Warhammer has a cockpit in it's chest. The windows negates any type of armor scenario for center mass.

Many mechs have this build, unless they have an actual head.

**Anpu42**

TalonZahn wrote:
infinite_array wrote:
TalonZahn wrote:

Lots of mechs have cockpits that are dead center in the chest. That makes even less since when you are usually aiming for center mass.

It may be the easiest place to hit, but it's also going to be the best armored part of the mech (on those that aren't prominently jutting out).

A plexiglass window isn't going to be anymore reinforced in the chest as it would be higher up between the shoulders.

The OG Warhammer has a cockpit in it's chest. The windows negates any type of armor scenario for center mass.

Many mechs have this build, unless they have an actual head.

The Archer, though it is more close to it's belly/waist.

**DarkTraveler777**

TalonZahn wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
That crap needs to change. `Mechs have a full suite of sensors/cameras and do not need to have fishbowl cockpits jutting forward from their torsos in order to function.

Yet a large amount of the weapon systems still miss their target.

Even with today's technology we have ballistic weapons that can accurately hit miles out, but in the future they aren't 100% accurate? Hell, even 85% accurate.

Those are issues of the abstracted game rules (same issue with the super-short weapon ranges) and shouldn't be a factor for the in-universe `Mech designs.

Honestly, would a `Mechwarrior want to ride in that Marauder above? I doubt it. If the pilot didn't get blasted by the incoming weapons fire they'd likely get crushed the first time the `Mech fell forward.

TalonZahn wrote:
[The prominent cockpits, to me, are like Space Marines with no helmets. They don't make much sense other than to "humanize" the war machines.

While that may be, it is still a dumb design philosophy to take when designing war machines. So much effort goes into adding realism to Battletech that big honking cockpits (which are made unnecessary by the fluff) just make no sense. `Mechs have a full spectrum of sensors, and the pilots can "see" 360 degrees around them due to these sensors. Hell, in game terms those sensors take up two of the six critical slots in a `Mech's head location, so they aren't insignificant to the `Mech's internal composition. But apparently a `Mech is blind unless it has paneled cockpits giving its pilot a scenic view of the battlefield? That. Is. Dumb.

Also, isn't the glass supposed to be polarized to protect against laser and PPC blasts in the fluff? So you shouldn't be able to see the pilots anyway, making the potential to humanize the war machines even less possible.

Down with the fishbowl cockpits, I say!

**warboss**

Retro future Japanese mecha have no problem with clear canopies, silly American mechwarriors!

**Barzam**

To be fair, the anine derived stuff was generally better designed than the original Battletech designs. Most of them had unexposed cocpits. Sure, the Dougram stuff all had the big glass cockpits, but at least in its source material, there was a reason for it. And, when they redid those designs for the Japanese market, they completely did away with the exposed cockpits on nearly every design.

**Vulcan**

Given the reliability of BattleTech technology, the very last thing I'd want to rely on is external sensors.

Heck, even their LASERS are not laser-guided accurate. How do you miss with a laser? (Okay, I know how you miss with a laser. But why don't you build it so the laser fires in two stages - a low-power targeting laser, and then main battery that only goes off if the targeting laser is on target?)

20th century laser designators are like 20 lbs, and the sensor package on a LGB isn't much more. Compared to the vast bulk of even a small BattleMech they're tiny.

Obviously technology in the 24th-plus-century took a huge nosedive in reliability. The only sensor a MechWarrior CAN rely on is the good old Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.

**DarkTraveler777**

Vulcan wrote:
Given the reliability of BattleTech technology, the very last thing I'd want to rely on is external sensors.

Battletech's technology is super reliable. Most of the `Mechs kicking around in the 4th Succession War were centuries old! Imagine going into battle today with a musket, I bet it wouldn't nearly be as reliable as great-great-great grandma's SHD-1R Shadowhawk was on Galtor III.

**Mattlov**

Vulcan wrote:
Given the reliability of BattleTech technology, the very last thing I'd want to rely on is external sensors.

Heck, even their LASERS are not laser-guided accurate. How do you miss with a laser? (Okay, I know how you miss with a laser. But why don't you build it so the laser fires in two stages - a low-power targeting laser, and then main battery that only goes off if the targeting laser is on target?)

20th century laser designators are like 20 lbs, and the sensor package on a LGB isn't much more. Compared to the vast bulk of even a small BattleMech they're tiny.

Obviously technology in the 24th-plus-century took a huge nosedive in reliability. The only sensor a MechWarrior CAN rely on is the good old Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.

Remember, Battletech is the future FROM THE 80's. That is a point they consistently keep up to represent why certain technology is bad or doesn't exist.

**carmachu**

Vertrucio wrote:
I honestly think the primary reason for Battletech limping along for the past decade has been its refusal to update the miniatures. Someone will of course chime in saying how much they still love BT and still play it, but that's a tiny drop in a dwindling wargaming scene.

Instead of making use of all the brilliant new mechanical artists and new ways of crafting miniatures, they wallowed in a pit of nostalgia for which there were already plenty of old mech model....

No. It has more to do with the refusal to actually promote the game. Minis are fine but you don't see CGL actually doing anything to show the game is alive and well to the gaming commumity. But rather just markets it to us die hards tgat have been around forever.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormonu wrote:
Wonder if we'll get LAMs for the Wasp, Stinger and Phoenix Hawk?

This looks much better and more in line with the original models than the Project Phoenix designs from a decade ago and I am always eager to pick up a model of a Warhammer (and Battlemaster & Locust).

Yes on LAMs. They were seen at gen con if I recall correctly. No clue on timetable. Also not sure which LAMS they are but there are models.....

**Mattlov**

Actually, we do promote it. Catalyst Demo Agents (like me) are running games all the time. The problem we find is that people will jump in and play a game, but won't buy the system.

**megatrons2nd**

Mattlov wrote:
Actually, we do promote it. Catalyst Demo Agents (like me) are running games all the time. The problem we find is that people will jump in and play a game, but won't buy the system.

I am not a Demo Agent, and have a similar problem with getting people involved. Lots of jump in to play, very little buying into, or back into in some case, the game. I have a group near me that supposedly plays, but my emails through the Catalyst sight went unanswered. I don't know if the site functions correctly anymore, or if those who used it gave up. I occasionally get an automated Email from it, but not very often, so I am leaning toward a bug in the system.

I do have to say, that the new game store near me has had a bit of interest, 2 returning players, and a couple of one of their children, and one MTG player who is showing more interest each time he plays. So 5 ish players, of which none have asked to buy any new product, and one is looking for his old box of Battletech. The kids are easily bored and start to wander, look at the other games going on about half way through, which is normal for young kids.

**Mattlov**

I did a kill and keep games, giving away FREE PAINTED MINIS, and even that didn't convince others to buy in, or even come back!

**Albertorius**

Mattlov wrote:
I did a kill and keep games, giving away FREE PAINTED MINIS, and even that didn't convince others to buy in, or even come back!

Hm. Last time I initiated newbies we did a Mechwarrior campaign. So far, the players have bought their mechs, 1 starter, 2 copies of Total Warfare and 2 of Alpha Strike. Different strokes, I guess.

**Elemental**

Vulcan wrote:
Given the reliability of BattleTech technology, the very last thing I'd want to rely on is external sensors.

Heck, even their LASERS are not laser-guided accurate. How do you miss with a laser? (Okay, I know how you miss with a laser. But why don't you build it so the laser fires in two stages - a low-power targeting laser, and then main battery that only goes off if the targeting laser is on target?)

20th century laser designators are like 20 lbs, and the sensor package on a LGB isn't much more. Compared to the vast bulk of even a small BattleMech they're tiny.

Obviously technology in the 24th-plus-century took a huge nosedive in reliability. The only sensor a MechWarrior CAN rely on is the good old Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.

You can't start down that path. Battletech works because giant robots are cool, even though we know in our hearts that they're kind of impractical. Once you start trying to make things realistic, then you're onto a slippery slope that will eventually lead to unmanned drones shooting invisible lasers at each other from the opposite horizon.

**paulson games**

Battletech has it quirks that some people love and others hate. I'm in the camp that once you start talking about giant robots logic and physics are more or less out the window. No matter how aged or unrealistic it may be I still love old school battletech.

**warboss**

For the uninitiated, what is the significance of rolling a double 5 with an urban mech laser? Ammo hit or core breach damage locations or something? Exploding sixes ala spartan games?

**Stormonu**

Nothing that I'm aware of it (been playing since 2E). But if you do hit and roll a 2 for location, that's a hit to the center torso with a possible critical. 12 would be the head, which would be pretty painful. Nothing as awesome as in that video, so I'm left scratching my head on that one.

PS: Our group calls the Urbanmech the walking trashcan. You step on it's foot, and the head swings up...

**Vulcan**

Elemental wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Given the reliability of BattleTech technology, the very last thing I'd want to rely on is external sensors.

Heck, even their LASERS are not laser-guided accurate. How do you miss with a laser? (Okay, I know how you miss with a laser. But why don't you build it so the laser fires in two stages - a low-power targeting laser, and then main battery that only goes off if the targeting laser is on target?)

20th century laser designators are like 20 lbs, and the sensor package on a LGB isn't much more. Compared to the vast bulk of even a small BattleMech they're tiny.

Obviously technology in the 24th-plus-century took a huge nosedive in reliability. The only sensor a MechWarrior CAN rely on is the good old Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.

You can't start down that path. Battletech works because giant robots are cool, even though we know in our hearts that they're kind of impractical. Once you start trying to make things realistic, then you're onto a slippery slope that will eventually lead to unmanned drones shooting invisible lasers at each other from the opposite horizon.

Which was rather my point, because I was responding to posts complaining about the unrealistic nature of the big canopies on some 'Mechs.

**Ghaz**

https://blainepardoe.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/working-on-a-battletech-novel-concept/

A little insight into the BattleTech fiction from author Blaine Lee Pardoe.

**Anpu42**

Stormonu wrote:
Nothing that I'm aware of it (been playing since 2E). But if you do hit and roll a 2 for location, that's a hit to the center torso with a possible critical. 12 would be the head, which would be pretty painful. Nothing as awesome as in that video, so I'm left scratching my head on that one.

PS: Our group calls the Urbanmech the walking trashcan. You step on it's foot, and the head swings up...

Ours is R2 with a 10 Guage [especially with an LB-X]

My favorite Mod
Remove the Small Laser and AC/10
Double the Heat Sinks.
Add ERSL
Add MRM40

POOF! The UrbanMech UM-40k

**DarkTraveler777**

Vulcan wrote:
Elemental wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Given the reliability of BattleTech technology, the very last thing I'd want to rely on is external sensors.

Heck, even their LASERS are not laser-guided accurate. How do you miss with a laser? (Okay, I know how you miss with a laser. But why don't you build it so the laser fires in two stages - a low-power targeting laser, and then main battery that only goes off if the targeting laser is on target?)

20th century laser designators are like 20 lbs, and the sensor package on a LGB isn't much more. Compared to the vast bulk of even a small BattleMech they're tiny.

Obviously technology in the 24th-plus-century took a huge nosedive in reliability. The only sensor a MechWarrior CAN rely on is the good old Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.

You can't start down that path. Battletech works because giant robots are cool, even though we know in our hearts that they're kind of impractical. Once you start trying to make things realistic, then you're onto a slippery slope that will eventually lead to unmanned drones shooting invisible lasers at each other from the opposite horizon.

Which was rather my point, because I was responding to posts complaining about the unrealistic nature of the big canopies on some 'Mechs.

But if that was your point then EVERY `Mech should have large canopies to counter the inherent flaws with `Mech sensors. However, the fluff doesn't bear that out, and states that `Mech sensors are so good a pilot doesn't need to rely on visuals to be combat effect.

The `Mechs with large canopies have them because the artist thought they'd look cool. Simple as that. There are a lot of flawed technologies in Battletech, but sensors surprisingly aren't one of them.

**Albertorius**

warboss wrote:
For the uninitiated, what is the significance of rolling a double 5 with an urban mech laser? Ammo hit or core breach damage locations or something? Exploding sixes ala spartan games?

None whatsoever, AFAIK. It could be 2 critical hits, I guess.

**paulson games**

I think it's a critical in the Megamek rules mod (ignore armor effect). The point of the video is that you can have the worst and fugliest mech possible and still blow stuff up with the right combination of luck.

The urbanmech is probably the worst of all the 80's designs and it also has absolutely horrible stats (slowest mech in the game armed with only one small laser which in reality does nothing), but it has that intangible something to it that makes battletech awesome despite the derpiness.

MWO's contribution to the running joke that is the glory of Urbanmech. I love the cockpit's speed gauge reading "slow and slower"

**DarkTraveler777**

paulson, that video was awesome! Was Victor Steiner-Davion piloting it?

**Ghaz**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
But if that was your point then EVERY `Mech should have large canopies to counter the inherent flaws with `Mech sensors. However, the fluff doesn't bear that out, and states that `Mech sensors are so good a pilot doesn't need to rely on visuals to be combat effect.

The `Mechs with large canopies have them because the artist thought they'd look cool. Simple as that. There are a lot of flawed technologies in Battletech, but sensors surprisingly aren't one of them.

There are rules for a Torso Cockpit if you desire to construct a 'mech with such:

Torso Cockpits weigh 4 tons and replace the standard Cockpit. Torso Cockpits occupy two spaces in the Center Torso, one for the cockpit and one sensor package. The head mounted Life Support systems are moved to the side torsos. This leaves four critical slots open in the 'Mech's head. The cramped conditions impose a 1 point penalty on all Piloting skill rolls. When the first sensor system is destroyed, add a 2 point penalty on all to-hit rolls. After the second sensor system is destroyed, impose a 4 point to-hit penalty. (If the destroyed sensor systems are both in the head, the 'Mech is effectively blinded and the penalty applies to Piloting skill rolls and physical attacks as well.) If all three sensor systems are destroyed, the 'Mech is completely blind and cannot make weapon attacks as well as suffering a 4 point penalty to Piloting skill rolls.

The proximity to the engine makes a MechWarrior's life difficult as well. The torso mounted life support systems are critical to the operation of the Mech. If one Life Support system is destroyed, the MechWarrior will take a point of damage each turn a Torso Cockpit equipped 'Mech is overheated by 1 to 14 points on the mech heat scale. If the Mech is overheated by 15 points or more and a Life Support system is destroyed, the MechWarrior will take 2 points of damage.

Sensors may make it unnecessary to rely on visuals, but if your sensors get knocked out you're going to be playing blind man's bluff.

**Albertorius**

paulson games wrote:
The urbanmech is probably the worst of all the 80's designs and it also has absolutely horrible stats (slowest mech in the game with only one small laser), but it has that intangible something to it that makes battletech awesome despite the derpiness.

Actually, ugly as it is (and the old trash can is indeed quite ugly, but charming anyway), it is a quite good design, for what it was designed to do, namely urban warfare. Yes, it's slow but it is heavily armed (you forgot the AC/10 that goes with that small laser) and armored for a 30-tonner and can jump over buildings, which makes a world of difference in urban engagements.

It's just that what it was designed to do is just not very glamourous or PC-like, but a lance of them in a dense urban zone are a holy terror against something equivalent, believe you me, and more than able of fething the gak up of any assault cocky enough to get in their killing ground.

I remember that the main 3025 variant swapped the AC/10 for a 20. On a 30-ton frame. That can ruin the day of anything ^_^

**H.B.M.C.**

The Urbie is amazing machine. Never question its beauty or tactical use. Even the Clans respected the Urbie, making a IIC version for themselves!

**DarkTraveler777**

Ghaz wrote:
Sensors may make it unnecessary to rely on visuals, but if your sensors get knocked out you're going to be playing blind man's bluff.

Yes, but if you lost both sensor critical slots that means your 'Mech's head has taken 2 critical hits and likely in a world of pain anyway. Unless you are the aforementioned Victor Steiner-Davion who can take Gauss Rifle slugs to the head and keep on fighting!

**Ghaz**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Sensors may make it unnecessary to rely on visuals, but if your sensors get knocked out you're going to be playing blind man's bluff.

Yes, but if you lost both sensor critical slots that means your 'Mech's head has taken 2 critical hits and likely in a world of pain anyway. Unless you are the aforementioned Victor Steiner-Davion who can take Gauss Rifle slugs to the head and keep on fighting!

What does any of that have to do with a torso cockpit, i.e. a cockpit which is not in the 'mech's head but is in the center torso behind all of the center torso armor?

**Mattlov**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Urbie is amazing machine. Never question its beauty or tactical use. Even the Clans respected the Urbie, making a IIC version for themselves!

I own a full battalion of Urbies!

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Sensors may make it unnecessary to rely on visuals, but if your sensors get knocked out you're going to be playing blind man's bluff.

Yes, but if you lost both sensor critical slots that means your 'Mech's head has taken 2 critical hits and likely in a world of pain anyway. Unless you are the aforementioned Victor Steiner-Davion who can take Gauss Rifle slugs to the head and keep on fighting!

Point of order: Victor took a Gauss ricochet off his arm, not a direct hit.