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 Happyjew wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:
Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.

And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.

If you're talking about the Necrons, that is absolute bs. How the heck are the Necrons cooperating with the Bloodies? What is this, the Magical School Bus? I still don't know how they're cooperating, but the fact that they're not killing each other on sight is absolute heresy.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:
Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.

And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.

If you're talking about the Necrons, that is absolute bs. How the heck are the Necrons cooperating with the Bloodies? What is this, the Magical School Bus? I still don't know how they're cooperating, but the fact that they're not killing each other on sight is absolute heresy.

Who said anything about Necrons and Blood Angels. I'm talking about the Dark Angels (hence why I mentioned them) and the Watchers in the Dark.

As to the Necron/Blood Angel Bro-fest...they are co-operating because they must. Better the enemy you know then the enemy you don't.

 urbanknight4 wrote:
Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.

It's kinda like a mother bear and her cubs. You mess with them, and she'll kill every human she faces from that day on. Ain't nobody got time to check if you're hostile or not. By the time negotiations and stuff are set up, a Tzeentch cultist hidden among the Xenos could blow it all up, and now you have to explain to your superior (or Emperor forbid, a SM Captain) why you let good men die instead of letting bad Xenos die.

Human beings are smarter than Bears and capable of reason, plus the Imperium has to look after far more than a few cubs. If you give up on negotiations after one cultist terrorist attack then you let the cultists win. You lose a few men? Sad but successful negotiations will prevent a war and save bmany, many, many times more.

 Happyjew wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:
Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.

And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.

If you're talking about the Necrons, that is absolute bs. How the heck are the Necrons cooperating with the Bloodies? What is this, the Magical School Bus? I still don't know how they're cooperating, but the fact that they're not killing each other on sight is absolute heresy.

Who said anything about Necrons and Blood Angels. I'm talking about the Dark Angels (hence why I mentioned them) and the Watchers in the Dark.

As to the Necron/Blood Angel Bro-fest...they are co-operating because they must. Better the enemy you know then the enemy you don't.

My bad, yo. Real ingenuity on GW's part, calling two companies after angels...

If the Imperium's ideology that all xenos were bloodthirsty monsters trying to destroy everyone else were true, then the Tau Empire could not exist. Because the members of the Tau Empire do not try to destroy everyone else; instead it is a colonial empire under control of the Tau in which the members assist each other. Thus the rationalization that the Imperium's genocidal ideology and policy is justified as self-defense is bull; the Tau don't have to do it. Not even the Dark Eldar do it.

The Imperium's ideology is just ideology. Quite obviously (as I mentioned) taken from the Nazis as part of GW's attempt to create a hellish dystopian future, in which they also added some of the more unpleasant aspects of the Soviet Union, Middle Ages Europe, the Renaissance, and other places/times.

The "kill the mutant" thing, the emphasis on genetic purity, is also very Nazi.

Alcibiades wrote:
The "kill the mutant" thing, the emphasis on genetic purity, is also very Nazi.

The more mutated you are, the more exposed your mind is to the Warp. I'm sure you'd love hanging around with the Chaos Gods, but we don't care much for their company.

Xenos have every right to exist as humanity. That's really the beginning and end of it.

"Rights" don't exist in nature. No living thing has the "right" to survive- only the will, at any cost. A more conducive way to phrase the question is "should the Imperium allow xenos to live, or attempt to destroy them", to which the answer is pretty much "yes, so long as doing so has no adverse effect on Humanity", simply because of the opportunity cost. It takes resources to destroy that could potentially be spent better elsewhere, and who knows what knowledge humanity is throwing away by destroying an alien culture instead of courting it.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Xenos have every right to exist as humanity. That's really the beginning and end of it.

"Rights" don't exist in nature. No living thing has the "right" to survive- only the will, at any cost. A more conducive way to phrase the question is "should the Imperium allow xenos to live, or attempt to destroy them", to which the answer is pretty much "yes, so long as doing so has no adverse effect on Humanity", simply because of the opportunity cost. It takes resources to destroy that could potentially be spent better elsewhere, and who knows what knowledge humanity is throwing away by destroying an alien culture instead of courting it.

IG With Gauss Flayers, for example.

And Baneblades with living metal.

And constructing orbital webway portals for fast interplanetary travel.

 Selym wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Xenos have every right to exist as humanity. That's really the beginning and end of it.

"Rights" don't exist in nature. No living thing has the "right" to survive- only the will, at any cost. A more conducive way to phrase the question is "should the Imperium allow xenos to live, or attempt to destroy them", to which the answer is pretty much "yes, so long as doing so has no adverse effect on Humanity", simply because of the opportunity cost. It takes resources to destroy that could potentially be spent better elsewhere, and who knows what knowledge humanity is throwing away by destroying an alien culture instead of courting it.

IG With Gauss Flayers, for example.

And Baneblades with living metal.

And constructing orbital webway portals for fast interplanetary travel.

Well, we can still kill the Necrons, Eldar, and... Eldar... that own that tech and still lobotomize it to suit our purposes. Consider it killing two Xenos with one stone.

 Wyzilla wrote:

There is no such thing as a right to life.

I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.

 zgort wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

There is no such thing as a right to life.

I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.

Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 zgort wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

There is no such thing as a right to life.

I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.

Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.

Is exterminating Xenos, even ones that pose no threat or generally do not attack humans (e.g. Eldar) considered murder?

All life is equally insignificant in the eyes of the Universe.

Eldar not attacking humans? Bro. They would kill your firstborn child, and everyone's firstborn child if it saved the life of a single elf. They do not care about humans at all, and are not good allies. They are to be tolerated, but in the face of their selfishness we will value humans over them.

Everyone else can die because ain't nobody got time to figure out if you're good or not. If you think you do, you're not working hard enough.

Eldar would but they don't generally go out of their way to attack human planets wholesale unless there some future prophacy that unless human colony X is destroyed craftworld Y is doomed....

We have good reason to exterminate. They're a dead race. They can't afford to have our policies. Besides, their tactics themselves show their nature. Guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. They're not gonna be like the Imperium. They're on the lam.

 urbanknight4 wrote:

Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.

Generally. Have an exalt!

Any attempt to find peace with the Eldar would be ruined by the Dark Eldar. Humans would demand the Dark Eldar stop with the raids, they'd refuse and the craftworld Eldar would refuse to see reason and side with the Dark Eldar.

DorianGray wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 zgort wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

There is no such thing as a right to life.

I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.

Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.

Is exterminating Xenos, even ones that pose no threat or generally do not attack humans (e.g. Eldar) considered murder?

The definition of murder is one human killing another, according to law. When a dog kills a human, it is not prosecuted for murder. It may, however, be put down.
When a human kills a dog, they are still not prosecuted for murder, rather, they are either prosecuted for damaging someone else's property, or for violating animal rights.
Animal rights did not exist as a legal function until fairly recently, when we decided to be nice to other species.
"Xenos Rights" would not exist until specific laws are passed, meaning a human could, in theory, go unpunished for the rape, pillage or murder of an alien species, should they be /not/ considered a form of animal, under animal rights.
They may, however, face repercussions from the xenos, or from retroactive laws, or from social outrage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NB: They could be very easily arrested if this happened in the UK, for "disturbing the peace". And could then be prosecuted under those sets of laws.

Never forget the Imperium is a theocracy. Religious dogma takes precedence over reasonable thought always. Reason leads to doubt and doubt leads to heresy, therefore reasonable people invariably fall to Chaos and are heretics. Burn reasonable people on sight.
The only kind of thought the Imperium tolerates is blind, unquestionable religious dogma.

The Imperium would destroy xenos rather than work with them against a common threat. Murdering xenos is not just acceptable, it is the sacred duty of every human.

Of course, in chaotic situations on the ground, some Imperial commanders in rare circumstances temporarily work together with xenos (primarily Eldar) if both face a common, even greater threat. This is just being pragmatic, and only done when completely necessary to achieve objectives, but even that is already pretty dangerous and regarded as heretical by the more zealous elements of the Inquisition and Ecclessiarchy. Many Imperial commanders would die before cooperating with xenos.
So, while Imperial commanders as individuals can be pragmatic, the Imperium as a whole is incredibly dogmatic and inflexible, and because of that there is no chance they would work with xenos on any official level.

Firstly, do to the Tau Empire what the Death Korp of Kreig did to their own planet. Then drop a few more cyclonic torpedoes just to be sure.

Orks, borrow that weakening toxin off Lady Malys, mass produce the stuff and refer to the Tau solution above. But with more cyclonic torpedoes!

Nids, Kryptmann had the right idea.

Eldar, not a priority. They are dying out anyway.

Necrons, shoot them in their beds then more cyclonic torpedoes.

Chaos, that's a tricky one but a liberal use of cyclonic torpedoes may be involved.

Hrud, bugger that.

Kroot, refer to Tau. Little blue buggers.

So, IMHO the answer to diplomatic relations in 40k involves a lot of cyclonic torpedoes. Best get that bulk order in to the Fabricator General.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

Spoiler:

Firstly, do to the Tau Empire what the Death Korp of Kreig did to their own planet. Then drop a few more cyclonic torpedoes just to be sure.

Orks, borrow that weakening toxin off Lady Malys, mass produce the stuff and refer to the Tau solution above. But with more cyclonic torpedoes!

Nids, Kryptmann had the right idea.

Eldar, not a priority. They are dying out anyway.

Necrons, shoot them in their beds then more cyclonic torpedoes.

Chaos, that's a tricky one but a liberal use of cyclonic torpedoes may be involved.

Hrud, bugger that.

Kroot, refer to Tau. Little blue buggers.

So, IMHO the answer to diplomatic relations in 40k involves a lot of cyclonic torpedoes. Best get that bulk order in to the Fabricator General.

Dude, can you please make your avatar smaller?

Apologies. Stuffed the avatar into a cyclonic torpedo and fired it at the Tau Empire. Little blue blighters.

Ta

 Signet-Powers wrote:


Don't forget about all the Gelding.

Imperial propaganda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

The Tau and their allies want to assimilate and rule over humans.

The Tau merely wish for all to serve the galaxy's Greater Good.

They'll even provide drone labor so that you won't die slaving in a mine or Forge World.

Freedom to live a short, oppressive life under human masters doesn't seem preferable to living a long, freer one under the Tau.

Say that to the pow's on Taros.

Say that to the dead on Tauros. The Imperium lost that engagement handily.

As for the prisoners... I see no mention of them being executed. You have a page number saying what happened to them?

The best way to answer this poll is to ask yourself just one question...

"What would Sly Marbo do?"

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
The best way to answer this poll is to ask yourself just one question...

"What would Sly Marbo do?"

Attach C4 to everything in sight, and then press a really big red button.

Exactly. They must all be annihilated.

@zgort: Certainly I could be taking this too seriously, I won't deny that at all, but I've been playing this wargame having fun with friends, family and acquaintances and everyone understanding that the factions of the setting, most of them including the Imperium, are all horrifically evil institutions and no one tries to justify racism. I was shocked to find so many people on the internet seeming to genuinely believe and try with all their might to justify a xenocidal and absolutely racist policy against innocents within that fictional setting. It frightens and disturbs me to think someone could actually think to themselves that, for example, the Imperium are the justified in how they treat innocent alien races. It frightens me that a person could have so prejudiced a worldview that they feel the need to vent themselves against an imaginary 'other' in a fictional setting. It horrifies me because of what real humans do in the name of real prejudices, justified on virtually the exact same grounds, in history. It is worrying how much it parallels the development and build-up to genocides and hate crimes in the real world. Worst is that it isn't wholly ironic. Regardless I am probably taking it too seriously but...having had a personal experience with this sort of stuff I can't help myself from overreacting, and I do apologize for that.

Also for people arguing that we can't judge 'aliens' like humans because they are too 'alien', well, in the actual field of philosophy the issue of whether we can even relate one human to another, understand each other, is still a divisive issue. The issue of the 'other' is hardly a solved predicament in human philosophy and we even have thought experiments that advance that we might encounter alien life more similar to some of us then we are too humans. We can't even begin to predict how relatable a sapient species besides ourselves would be too ourselves, we have no data with which to make such a prediction at all. They might be so similar its hard to distinguish or so different it's impossible to communicate. Either way we cannot simply disqualify them for not being 'human' since that raises the major philosophical issue of whether or not different humans can relate to each other. 'Othering' is something we have and still do to each other all the time.

Also I don't get. and never did, why Imperium players like me online hate the Tau or feel the need to disparage the Tau constantly? Its just bizarre how almost universally online Imperium fans hate the Tau. I don't get why anyone would hate any faction. Regardless the people who keep saying Tau treat everyone as second-class citizens; the first thing to understand is that the Tau hegemony is, without a doubt, still an unequal place. That's a fact. The Tau do have preferential treatment within their own Empire and even amongst the Castes there is a 'first among equals'. But to compare the way humans who joint he Tau willingly are treated to the many slave-level and worse conditions millions of citizens of the Imperium themselves experience is ridiculous. In Taros the Tau treat the Imperium subjects relatively well, the book even explicitly says better than they would be treated by the Imperium. In the Damocles Anthology we even have a short story following a Human soldier with the Tau and his friendship with a Water Caste member. Said short story even has the human articulate, very well, that the Tau aren't some universally benign species since inevitably they compel compliance by force. At the same time the story makes no bones that his treatment is largely equitable and even has the Tau commander at one point ask him to never feel shy about offering her advice since he would know human thought better than her anyway. So the definition of second-class citizen, whilst something I would still technically agree with since non-Tau are certainly not given the pre-eminent status the Tau are within the Empire, still misses the fact that they are treated far better than almost any other hegemon in the galaxy. Not even worth comparing how the Imperium often treats its own. In addition to this another short story even provides that Tau permit the members of the Empire to continue any practices they wish (such as Kroot) so long as they don't contravene the Greater Good. They are appealing to races, even humans, in the fluff for a reason. Stripping them of it in order to turn them into a straw man diminishes their role as a mirror reflecting the galaxy's state back at it.

Also just because something isn't 'human' doesn't mean its bad or wrong. I don't even begin to understand what the rational argument for 'not human=evil' would be and highly doubt any major or reputable philosopher would agree with reasoning such as that.

Then when people argue that 'trusting xenos hurt Lion and such' do they forget how badly the Interex were screwed for their gesture to the Imperium? Do they forget that the harm aliens have done to the Imperium pales in comparison to the harm humans have unleashed upon themselves in the setting? Mankind has practically always in the fluff been its own most dangerous foe, from Heresy to Black Crusades, with Chaos behind it. Not aliens. If anything more effort should be focused cooperating to oppose Chaos.

Also the idea that the Craftworld Eldar can't be co-existed with is weird. The rulebooks themselves have stated before that if the Imperium bothered to research they'd find that the Craftworlds more often help them than not. Not to say the Craftworld Eldar are 'good' by any stretch, majority of them are also completely bigoted donkey-caves. But that doesn't change the fact that the two races could definitely learn to cooperate with each other and peacefully coexist if both, importantly it takes both, groups made the effort too do so. Eldar also do not always try to kill humans. Indeed a Biel-Tan Autarch even peacefully resettled humans colonists off a Eldar World and onto a moon and saw to it that no harm would come to them so long as they remained on the moon.

I don't even know why I bothered though, this is the internet, hate of something different will always beat out anything else.

Sounds like reading text on the internet depresses you. I encourage you to believe everything you read on the internet.

I'm gonna agree with those that point out that there is no such thing as a 'right to live' in the natural order of the universe. It's a human invention that we sometimes apply towards those humans we favour while happily letting the rest perish. It's a fantasy to make those who are making decisions feel a semblance of power. The cold hearted uncaring nature of the universe doesn't give a rat's ass about this so called 'right to live'. It's up to the living themselves to fight hard and keep living or join groups with similar values to survive with the benefits of numbers. We can pretend we are civilizing ourselves with intangible inventions but we can't civilize reality.