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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 17:35:42
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
Planet of the Ultimate Llama Lords
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Selym wrote:I get the feeling that the rest of the posts here are gonna just be in-character declarations of heresy, and the need for more fire.
May as well have it locked. We seem to have exhausted the debate anyway.
Humanity triumphs once again! Death to the xenos scum! Death to the traitor!
Ok, now that I got that out of my system, we should be bff's with the space elves. All we need to do is whack the Dark Eldar and we're good. The Tau can go to chaos for all I care.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 17:38:14
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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And forces you to realise, that our current moral viewpoints don't always apply to everything.
"Thou shalt not kill" is fine 'n all, but a choice between that and death is a regular occurrence in this universe. So regular, that the default option has become "Thou shalt kill".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 17:40:02
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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For a commentary on the internal policies of the Imperium, I've always been fond of the various artwork and such (mostly fan-made) of the Arbites with "Thou Shalt Not." emblazoned across it.
I've actually used that line in a Dark Heresy game when someone was praying real hard to the Emperor on whether or not they should make use of a certain artifact they found.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 17:41:08
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
However, it makes sense that a philosophy that suborns the rights of individuals to the Greater Good would have no problem accepting mass sterilization, even for whole populations. Replacing an unreliable population with a reliable one certainly would serve the Greater Good in the long run.
Any belief or philosophy, taken to it's illogical extreme, becomes tyranny in the end. The natural tendency of all societies is to enshrine their most dear beliefs as inviolate and unquestionable, and increasingly rejects other values as it moves toward that extreme. Therefore all societies slowly but naturally abandon common sense, tolerance and rationality and move inexorably to their illogical extreme. This is what Toynbee called 'the ephemeral ideal'. When the disconnect between the ephemeral ideal and reality, including human nature, becomes so jarring that it can only be maintained by force, a society has evolved into a tyranny. A tyranny suffers from internal opposition as well as external enemies. Therein lies the seeds of its destruction.
Neither the Imperium nor the Tau are different. That's part of why the 40k fluff is so poignant.
My two cents.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/28 17:46:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 18:09:13
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Remember: There is no canon in 40K. It doesn't exist, isn't intended to exist, and any claim of "canonicity" is a construction made up by fans.
The best you can do is quote sources and extrapolate from there.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 18:43:33
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Moscow, Russia
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The Tau and the Imperium are different kinds of dystopias. If the Imperium is 1984/Hitler/Stalin/Torquemada, the Tau are Brave New World (which I suspect is actually one of the inspirations of the writers).
With caveat that depictions of the Imperium in the fluff vary a great deal. Abnettverse is much less dystopian (barely grimdark at all) than the Dark Heresy fluff, for instance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 18:44:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 19:01:20
Subject: Re:Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Executing Exarch
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Actually even in a real life setting the debate to whether non terran species have a right to life or a mass genocide approach is not as one sided as most 20th century westerners would imagine it to be.
By the very act of existing a non terran sentient species is always going to be a threat to the homo sapiens as resources are finite in the universe. This means that conflict between the two species is inevitable and due to the incomparable biology and probably incompatible bio-systems the assimilation of the two groups is improbable if not outright impossible. In reality if we meet another extra solar species it will not be star trek. It is much more likely that one side will not even recognize the other side as being sentient and will thus attempt to "exterminate" them as pests or study them as chimps.
Look at humans vs spiders, octopus, and dolphins. All three of these groups have species which are approximately as intelligent as 4-8 year old human children and can work mechanisms and make tools. In fact there are several species of spider which recognize themselves in a mirror and are likely at least semi sentient. Humans regularly kill them with little to no thought about killing something that is most likely sentient and self aware. Funnily enough the smartest non human creature on the planet are actually spiders and several species of octopus, yet they don't have protesters lining up to protect them. Instead the very very dumb bunnies and the comparatively stupid but closely related chimps and monkeys get the picket lines. (an even more bizarre twist to the right to life of a sentient being is that new research has indicated most plants may be self aware, feel pain, and recognize individuals that harm them...so go murder your broccoli).
On the other hand the best thing that could happen is for humanity to meet something so alien it lives on completely different types of planets and stars. At the least competition for resources will not occur for a long time and some trade might help to equalize the tech of the two groups before conflict occurs thus leading to a war rather than extermination.
Now if it is possible to access the multiverse and manipulate dimensions then the limited nature of resources might not be as true and thus the inevitability of conflict may not be true.
Another interesting caveat is the super intelligent species writers like to write about. ie a species so far in a advance that they are uninterested in the other species as they are not threats. The interesting thing is that such a species is actually more likely to sterilize a group like humanity as our actions increase entropy of the universe and thus drive it to a quicker heat death. As of the moment the effect is minimal but letting us develop would also let our effect increase so it would really be a measure of effort expended vs result.
As for inside the wrahammer 40K universe the xenos are clearly all hostile to verying degrees. Most of them want to eat humans or turn them into finger puppets. The few that are not overtly hostile are pervasively harmful. The two not overtly harmful factions being; Tau and Craftworld Eldar.
The Tau espouse the "greater good" but note that this good is always centered around the ethereals and their castes. They appear to be more than happy to put a group of billions of humans in a situation to be killed to save vastly less populated Tau worlds. They also do not share the tech evenly and worst of all are not prepared to truly support themselves. So far they have avoided chaos, necrons, or nids really focusing on them but they have absolutely no way to protect themselves from any of these factions devoting any real fraction of their forces. On the other hand the Tau have continually acted to weaken imperial control in the region and during the last crusade even invaded the imperium en mass. For a faction that is not even willing to consider the existence of daemons to attack a force fighting them is not exactly acting for the good of their people.
Craftworld Eldar can be summed in their word for humans; Mon-keigh ie they think anything not eldar or old one is an animal and should be used as they will. CWE have killed more humans than most of the overtly harmful factions and there is evidence they even had a hand in the horus heresy. Any "positive" relationship with the eldar is more likely to be a manipulation of the stupid humans to cause them to kill some random future eldar enemy at the cost of billions of human lives. Eldar are the perfect example of diplomacy requiring mutual trust and understanding...humans don't understand and eldar don't trust so diplomacy always turns into manipulation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 19:41:41
Subject: Re:Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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ansacs wrote:
On the other hand the best thing that could happen is for humanity to meet something so alien it lives on completely different types of planets and stars. At the least competition for resources will not occur for a long time and some trade might help to equalize the tech of the two groups before conflict occurs thus leading to a war rather than extermination.
Now if it is possible to access the multiverse and manipulate dimensions then the limited nature of resources might not be as true and thus the inevitability of conflict may not be true.
Another interesting caveat is the super intelligent species writers like to write about. ie a species so far in a advance that they are uninterested in the other species as they are not threats. The interesting thing is that such a species is actually more likely to sterilize a group like humanity as our actions increase entropy of the universe and thus drive it to a quicker heat death. As of the moment the effect is minimal but letting us develop would also let our effect increase so it would really be a measure of effort expended vs result.
Meeting a Starfish Alien has already occurred to humanity - Daemons, the C'tan, and probably one or two others I cannot recall. Humanity either strikes first, or the Starfish was previously agitated by another xenos.
Multiverse thingies would be fun. Problem is anything without multiverse-shattering technology would try to kill the extradimensional creatures (humans). And the IOM still has the dogma of "kill on sight".
And might meet itself, resulting in some very strange diplomatic relations.
Super Intelligent aliens are scary concepts. Humans to them would be like grains of sand to us - so common and mundane that they're only a pretty curiosity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 19:44:54
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Multiverse thingies? That would be H'rud, Daemons, Necrons (they can travel into other dimensions), and Enslavers. Also, Eldar and Dark Eldar (the Webway is another dimension).
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 19:48:16
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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The webway is in the warp, and the warp is a reflection of our reality. Given the 40k universe, I would guess that the other universes would have their own warps.
I thought Necrons just used spatial dimensions, rather than the multiverse?
Didn't know about Hrud.... Automatically Appended Next Post: Note: Spacial Dimensions: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th [...], 11th. And Time. And the Warp (in 40k)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 19:49:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 19:53:17
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Whether you call it a "spatial dimension" or "the multiverse", it's the same thing. It's another plane of reality. The Necrons call it "hyperspace".
Even as a reflection of Realspace, the Warp is still a separate dimension. There are places that exist as realities within the Warp but are conceptual in Realspace, various heavens and hells, and similar fever-dream places. Whether these places are "real" is... not really answerable.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 20:01:33
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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Eh. In physics there is a difference.
A spatial dimension can exist in the same reality as other spatial dimensions (we have the 1st through 3rd and Time).
A universe is a possible outcome of the interactions of all possible combinations of physics, and each one may contain any collection of spatial dimensions.
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Universe 1 could be ours, containing dimensions 1,2,3,T (Time) and W (Warp)
Universe 2 could be located by us, and contain: 1,2,3,T
Universe 3: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,W (Meaning it has 7 spatial dimensions, no Time, and the Warp)
The multiverse is the sum total of all possible realities.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 20:05:37
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Physics?
Pssshaw.... take your "Real Science" and "True Facts" and get outta here! This is 40K we're talking about!
Science has no place here!
There's also no indication that there are any other dimensions of Realspace in 40K. We get the Warp (in all its infinite guises), the Webway, and the Hyper-phasic realities that the Necrons make use of.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 20:14:41
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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Hmmm... For a point that both helps and disproves my point - WHFB and 40k keep getting references to eachother via the warp...
-Hints at multiverse
-Just made WHFB a spatial dimension in my explanation *facepalm*
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 20:16:10
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Attempting to understand the Warp is a sure path to madness.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 20:18:32
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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*begins writing "Liber Chaotica V:2"*
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 20:19:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/28 21:14:53
Subject: Re:Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Executing Exarch
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Selym wrote:Meeting a Starfish Alien has already occurred to humanity - Daemons, the C'tan, and probably one or two others I cannot recall. Humanity either strikes first, or the Starfish was previously agitated by another xenos.
Multiverse thingies would be fun. Problem is anything without multiverse-shattering technology would try to kill the extradimensional creatures (humans). And the IOM still has the dogma of "kill on sight".
And might meet itself, resulting in some very strange diplomatic relations.
The truest version of this is the original C'Tan which were encased in metal bodies by the necrontyr. They really had no frame of reference before that.
Selym wrote:Super Intelligent aliens are scary concepts. Humans to them would be like grains of sand to us - so common and mundane that they're only a pretty curiosity.
Actually before the fall this would have been the eldar. So far in advance of the humans that even during the techno "peak" of the dark age the eldar couldn't care less what the humans did. Some of the other less known races might also qualify as some of the most advance races don't actually interact with the IoM but occasionally their actions cause catastrophes for the humans. In some ways the daemon gods could be classified as such. They don't actually care that much what their followers and the humans do we are like a chess game they play with each other.
There are still the other races that made up the orginization the eldar used to belong to that fought the chaos gods. Not sure if they are still around but they were active behind the scenes in 30K. Warhammer is weird however as a portion of the physics of the fiction is affected by the emotions of any race in the setting. This means that no matter how much more advanced any single race is they cannot ignore the others.
Psienesis wrote:Multiverse thingies? That would be H'rud, Daemons, Necrons (they can travel into other dimensions), and Enslavers. Also, Eldar and Dark Eldar (the Webway is another dimension).
Selym wrote:The webway is in the warp, and the warp is a reflection of our reality. Given the 40k universe, I would guess that the other universes would have their own warps.
I thought Necrons just used spatial dimensions, rather than the multiverse?
Didn't know about Hrud....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Spacial Dimensions: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th [...], 11th. And Time. And the Warp (in 40k)
Honestly the writers in 40K just don't have enough science background to understand the difference between a dimension and universe. There isn't really any way of telling if the warp is a dimension of the universe or a close proximity universe connected in some way to the 40K universe. IMO it makes most sense to think of it as a universe either created or brought into close proximity to the 40K universe and thus there is exchange between the two universes. The fact that the time and space dimensions act differently (or for that matter even exist) in the warp argues it is not a dimension of the 40K universe. Though we are talking stuff we cannot really know, but the best understanding of using alternative dimensions I know of is that you have to be oriented to those dimensions and thus not oriented to the normal spacial/time dimensions to make use of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 17:36:19
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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Psienesis wrote:
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
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Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 17:46:53
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Dakka Veteran
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Warboss Gorhack wrote:In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
Dawn of War is NOT a reputable source - GW might strongly disagree with their made-up BS fluff. Video-games and boardgames CANNOT be used as real fluff. Only stuff from GW directly like books and codexes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 17:48:11
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
Planet of the Ultimate Llama Lords
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EmpNortonII wrote: Psienesis wrote:
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
"Forceful guidance". "Misguided". "Error of their ways".
Thanks for your xeno tyranny, but no thanks. At least our Imperium doesn't pretend Chaos doesn't exist. And my point still stands, you can choose to obey or die for your beliefs in the Imperium. In the Tau castes, your only choice is to obey, no matter what you think.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 18:25:18
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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urbanknight4 wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Psienesis wrote:
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
"Forceful guidance". "Misguided". "Error of their ways".
Thanks for your xeno tyranny, but no thanks. At least our Imperium doesn't pretend Chaos doesn't exist. And my point still stands, you can choose to obey or die for your beliefs in the Imperium. In the Tau castes, your only choice is to obey, no matter what you think.
... and how does that affect gue'vesa? The Tau find happiness in their Caste. That is what they are. They are not blue-skinned humans, but a different species with different normals. Humans in the Tau Empire are offered more choice in how to serve in the Tau Empire than they are in the Imperium.
Would you approve of your wife being burned alive because she visited the opposite side of a planet when an insane Inquisitor saw a person walk under a ladder, decided it was a sign of Chaos, and destroyed every soul on the planet? That is the reality of the Imperium- mindless brutality, thoughtless killing, endless slaughter. The only difference between your lords of Terra and an Ork warboss is that the ork is brave enough to fight in the senseless carnage he demands. Automatically Appended Next Post: DorianGray wrote:Warboss Gorhack wrote:In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
Dawn of War is NOT a reputable source - GW might strongly disagree with their made-up BS fluff. Video-games and boardgames CANNOT be used as real fluff. Only stuff from GW directly like books and codexes.
Reminds me, I've been meaning to start a thread titled, "If tabletop 40k was based on Conquest." Automatically Appended Next Post: ansacs wrote:
The Tau espouse the "greater good" but note that this good is always centered around the ethereals and their castes. They appear to be more than happy to put a group of billions of humans in a situation to be killed to save vastly less populated Tau worlds.
Lies. During the Taros Crusade, gue'vesa were largely used to guard supply lines, cities, and other locations while Fire Warriors fought and died repelling the Imperial invaders. Yes,the Ethereals lead the Empire, and the expertise of the Castes is sought first, but the Tau do not trow lives away needlessly, ever. The Tau do not even expend drones the way the Imperium expends human lives- the lives it supposedly exists to defend.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/29 18:36:31
Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 19:06:40
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Tail Gunner
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EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
There's nothing hopeless about the imperium's campaigns against the Tau. Sooner or later the Tau will join the list of countless xenos races that have been all but extinguished by the armies of mankind. I need not remind you that the Imperium's military capacity is uncoutable times bigger than that of the Tau.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 19:38:51
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
Planet of the Ultimate Llama Lords
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I refuse to argue with Xeno scum any longer. May the Emperor protect me from this heresy. I see why you all need a bolter shell in the head.
Alright, out of character I agree partially with the Tau. Communism is cool, except... the Imperium is transparent about how brutal it is, and makes no apologies. Also, the Inquisition sucks. We get it. But dudes like the Space Puppies and the Salamanders are against randomly nuking a world because a chaos cultist farted inside. We're not perfect... but yo, them Ethereals are some freaky xenos. I think I prefer pragmatism I understand than hypnosis I don't.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 19:39:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 19:46:04
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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Robbert Ambrose wrote: EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
There's nothing hopeless about the imperium's campaigns against the Tau. Sooner or later the Tau will join the list of countless xenos races that have been all but extinguished by the armies of mankind. I need not remind you that the Imperium's military capacity is uncoutable times bigger than that of the Tau.
The Imperium is dying, and has been dying for 10,000 years. It makes no technological progress- all it does is regress and scavenge from better days.
Its crusades have been repulsed, adn will continue to be repulsed. It policies of mindless aggression have caught up to it, and will destroy it. Only through the Greater Good will humanity survive. Automatically Appended Next Post: ansacs wrote:
For a faction that is not even willing to consider the existence of daemons to attack a force fighting them is not exactly acting for the good of their people.
Your Imperium regularly cleanses planets of all life because they so much as suspect that one person on them has heard of Chaos.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 19:50:07
Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 20:01:23
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
Planet of the Ultimate Llama Lords
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Ok, look here. What would you like to do, lose a couple million people, or have an entire planet infected with Chaos? You only have those two options because nobody sees you fighting Chaos. Don't judge us when you don't even know what it's like to have a single psycher wipe out an entire city in a blink because Papa Nurgle tickled his pituitary.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 04:04:48
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Nervous Hellblaster Crewman
The burnt out shell of Hochland.
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urbanknight4 wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Psienesis wrote:
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
"Forceful guidance". "Misguided". "Error of their ways".
Thanks for your xeno tyranny, but no thanks. At least our Imperium doesn't pretend Chaos doesn't exist. And my point still stands, you can choose to obey or die for your beliefs in the Imperium. In the Tau castes, your only choice is to obey, no matter what you think.
Yay! Burn the fishheads!
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Fer da Emprah! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 18:31:26
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
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(I believe this is an in character type of mail, thusly, I will reply in kind)
Dear Inquisitor,
As a citizen and loyal servant of the Imperium I believe humanity should simply stand atop the stars and all within its holdings. This includes all native flora and fauna. Blessed are His worlds and blessed we who toil in His name. Thus, I suggest these xenos species should only exist to be subservient to we, Humanity. I do not wish to withhold his blessings from His universe, thus as much as these xenos filth are to be loathed, they should not be denied the opportunity to toil in His name the possibility be recognized by Him when their service to Humanity ends. For only in death does duty and service to Him ends.
By doing such we will be able to raise ourselves higher and have more troops ready to fight for the glory of The Golden Throne. Thus adding more potential resources for our use. A Xenos may earn respect. However they may not earn humanity. Therefore let us allow them the opportunity to earn such in a peaceful manner. If they spurn our good faith and our open arms to His light, we must educate them of their folly.
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Lead - "As the Wolf!"
Response - "We answer the call!"
Lead - "And like the Wolf!"
Response - "We bring His light to the darkness!"
- Battle cry of the Order of Geirolf |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 19:56:33
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
Planet of the Ultimate Llama Lords
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Kuroko1985 wrote:(I believe this is an in character type of mail, thusly, I will reply in kind)
Dear Inquisitor,
As a citizen and loyal servant of the Imperium I believe humanity should simply stand atop the stars and all within its holdings. This includes all native flora and fauna. Blessed are His worlds and blessed we who toil in His name. Thus, I suggest these xenos species should only exist to be subservient to we, Humanity. I do not wish to withhold his blessings from His universe, thus as much as these xenos filth are to be loathed, they should not be denied the opportunity to toil in His name the possibility be recognized by Him when their service to Humanity ends. For only in death does duty and service to Him ends.
By doing such we will be able to raise ourselves higher and have more troops ready to fight for the glory of The Golden Throne. Thus adding more potential resources for our use. A Xenos may earn respect. However they may not earn humanity. Therefore let us allow them the opportunity to earn such in a peaceful manner. If they spurn our good faith and our open arms to His light, we must educate them of their folly.
Granted, by Jupiter!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 21:40:32
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Terrifying Rhinox Rider
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Signet-Powers 657677 8012871 2ce8a125645c3fff63b2009bae38e883 wrote:the Guant's Ghosts books describe the Imperium as doing only what's ultimately necessary.
Most of the villains in Gaunt's Ghosts are Imperial generals, Lords general, commissars and enlisted guardsmen who are doing things that are extremely unnecessary.
In this setting, it is more important to worry about whether everyone on one side is honest and competent. Even if the Imperium were plural and cosmopolitan with xenos holding equal rights, there would inevitably be intercommunal conflict, and the humans would still have to worry about people of their own species being venal and incompetent, profiteering on the conflict instead of resolving it equitably.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 23:06:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/31 01:10:41
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Kuroko1985 wrote:(I believe this is an in character type of mail, thusly, I will reply in kind)
Dear Inquisitor,
As a citizen and loyal servant of the Imperium I believe humanity should simply stand atop the stars and all within its holdings. This includes all native flora and fauna. Blessed are His worlds and blessed we who toil in His name. Thus, I suggest these xenos species should only exist to be subservient to we, Humanity. I do not wish to withhold his blessings from His universe, thus as much as these xenos filth are to be loathed, they should not be denied the opportunity to toil in His name the possibility be recognized by Him when their service to Humanity ends. For only in death does duty and service to Him ends.
By doing such we will be able to raise ourselves higher and have more troops ready to fight for the glory of The Golden Throne. Thus adding more potential resources for our use. A Xenos may earn respect. However they may not earn humanity. Therefore let us allow them the opportunity to earn such in a peaceful manner. If they spurn our good faith and our open arms to His light, we must educate them of their folly.
++Incoming Transmission++
Citizen 1985 657677 8020039,
Report tomorrow morning at 0600 hours sharp to the Officio Purgatorum on Sigillite Square to confess your sins and a final chance to be redeemed in the Emperor's eyes.
Execution is scheduled for 0700 hours.
Failure to show up will be considered dereliction of duty. Dereliction of duty is heresy.
++Thought for the Day: The man who has nothing can still have faith.++
++Transmission End++
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