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WHFB certainly was not aimed at 12 year olds. Part of the reason it was canned is that it was seen as being too difficult for Little Timmies to get into, and I don't blame them.

That said, the system was a mainstay of GW's figure sales efforts for 30 years which does not support the position they are purely a toy company.

Things may be changing though...

"Citadel Miniatures and its de facto marketing divisions Games Workshop and Forge World are toy companies. Before you complain about the rules or boast of your elite gaming skills, remember that you are playing with toy soldiers designed for a 12-year-old target demographic. "

I don't get why GW would make their models increasingly detailed then if it's toys for 12 year olds. Seeing how children don't hit details when painting, what's the point? Childish rules should go with childish models yes?
"
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zbPyvFSaR_A/TYz3nsae5YI/AAAAAAAAAEw/bwBKzcV5I8E/s1600/IMG_1991.JPG

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Mr. Correct wrote:
I think it's amusing that there are people who actually think GW would make more money if they wrote better rules or put more research into their writing. Such a naive and childlike understanding of the world, these people have. Such baffling ignorance of the way business works in the real world.

The truth of course is that rules are worthless. They're just words arbitrarily scrawled onto a piece of paper. GW is a company that makes models, and they only publish rules as an accessory for the models. They couldn't care less if you like the game or even if you play the game. They just want you to buy the models.

The quality of rule writing and testing have never affected a game's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with pretty playing pieces is worth ten billion perfectly written rulesets.

7/10

3/10, 4/10 at best - he lost points on the dismount.

The Auld Grump, somebody's gotta be the Russian judge....

Mr. Correct wrote:
The quality of rule writing and testing have never affected a game's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with pretty playing pieces is worth ten billion perfectly written rulesets.

The quality of proper food preparation and seasoning have never affected a meal's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with expensive ingredients and pretty presentation is worth ten billion perfectly cooked portions.

The quality of reliability and crash safety have never affected a car's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with rumbling engine noise and chromed parts is worth ten billion perfectly reliable, safe automobiles.

The quality of proper spelling and punctuation have never affected a resume's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package on pretty stationary and letterhedd is werth 10 billions, pefektly, writin, job aplikashuns.

Kilkrazy wrote:WHFB certainly was not aimed at 12 year olds. Part of the reason it was canned is that it was seen as being too difficult for Little Timmies to get into, and I don't blame them.

Weeell... it was a bit more simple than some other mass combat games. Wheel, reform, block march, hit 'em in the flank, and a few others. Other games have deeper interactions between units, which aren't usually seen as too complicated. I think Warhammer's particular complications came from the combat resolution and casualty removal (a throwback to it's days as a skirmish game) and the reams of special rules that had to be memorised. The relatively tactics-lite, strategy-loaded system is what might appeal more to younger gamers with their scatty prefrontal cortexes (no srsly) and didn't seem to do 40K much harm. 4 pages of main rules and warscrolls of special rules seems to show they're still thinking along those lines. It's the paring down of horde units to an ostensible small model count game that's more telling, IMO.

keezus wrote:The quality of proper spelling and punctuation have never affected a resume's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package on pretty stationary and letterhedd is werth 10 billions, pefektly, writin, job aplikashuns.

Exalt.

 keezus wrote:

Mr. Correct wrote:
The quality of rule writing and testing have never affected a game's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with pretty playing pieces is worth ten billion perfectly written rulesets.

The quality of proper food preparation and seasoning have never affected a meal's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with expensive ingredients and pretty presentation is worth ten billion perfectly cooked portions.

The quality of reliability and crash safety have never affected a car's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with rumbling engine noise and chromed parts is worth ten billion perfectly reliable, safe automobiles.

The quality of proper spelling and punctuation have never affected a resume's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package on pretty stationary and letterhedd is werth 10 billions, pefektly, writin, job aplikashuns.

And yet, men line up to date the pretty girl, girls fawn over the hunky guy, books are judged by their covers, the car with the shiny mags sells... For that matter, nice looking people get hired over ugly and average-looking ones.

And actually, a well presented cv outperforms a poorly presented one. Printed on linen, watermarked bond, professionally typeset will give an inferior applicant a job over a slightly superior one.

Looks aren't everything.... But they matter way more than they should for almost everything in life. Life ain't fair, and the clever take advantage of that.

Show me a pretty girl, and I'll show you the man who's tired of her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and only you would wilfully ignore the point being made in order to make some specific points about how they're not 100% factually accurate.

The universe isn't made of absolutes. I'm just saying that as with all things in life looks matter to some degree to most -- that's all.

People choose stuff with nice packaging all the time, and not looking nice is one of the reasons people choose otherwise. Who was the last ugly US president? What is the ratio of ugly actors to nice looking ones? When was the last time a tv ad featured someone unattractive, except to make fun of the? It's important for a game to have nice artwork and look cool. We live in relatively superficial times.

By the way, I'm willfully ignoring all arguments about whether GW writes good games or not, because I'm just tired of arguing about it. I happen to think that they write great games, and being a person who may choose to play any game that I wish to, GW games frequently fill the top spot for me. It's pointless for someone to argue that it's otherwise to me, because I happen to enjoy 40k, just as it's pointless for me to try to convince someone who doesn't like GW or their games otherwise. It's especially true on a forum where most people have no desire to change their mind, and are simply looking to vent or evangelize, or for others to affirm their own views.

Meh. Sure looks matter. At first blush.. GW is like a restaurant that sells the highest quality Kobe beef steaks. (Or Citadel Finebeef, to quote the vernacular.) They are served with spectacular side dishes made of the freshest exotic ingredients. The dining area is pristine, luxurious and elegant. Their expert chefs lovingly prepare the Citadel Finebeef to a mouthwatering well done. This is the patented GW way to enjoy Finebeef. This doesn't take away from the fact that Finebeef is the finest beef you can get, and as it is oft argued, you might buy the Finebeef and have it prepared another way at a different restaurant... however - given the pedigree of their product... one can only scratch their head at how GW management direct their chefs to handle it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an aside... GW is actively cornering the market for well done premium steaks. This is an untapped market and GW is well positioned to dominate this area for years to come.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Show me a pretty girl, and I'll show you the man who's tired of her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and only you would wilfully ignore the point being made in order to make some specific points about how they're not 100% factually accurate.

Do you know my wife?
Sorry just trolling.

I love it... Citadel Finebeef!!

Many find it odd that Citadel Finebeef remains the best selling beef -- for some reason, despite declining sales, remains highly popular, and then there are those Sumo wrestlers that eat portions befitting a score of normal folk, and the Supersumos who buy Finebeef that they may enjoy it to the end of days, should there truly come the zombie apocalypse.

@Talys: To extend the metaphor: Without a doubt, GW sells good quality product. The reason that people sales stay high could come from many reasons:

1. GW Finebeef is the most commonly available premium beef, carried in most FLGS and has its own retail arm.
2. Unwillingness to try anything else. (i.e. Eeew Sushi is raw fish!!! etc)
3. They enjoy the taste.
4. They were brought in by the Finebeef but stay for the premium side dishes
5. They like the ambiance and exclusiveness of the restaurant.

This doesn't change the fact that Privateer Press is muscling in with their less marbled, less tender, and generally crappier beef - sure the sides aren't as good, and the crowd is rowdier... but you can get your steak made to order.

Mantic is jumping aboard with their knockoff Finebeef, crowding the steak market.

GW does a lot of things right, but just by doing the one thing wrong and not fixing it... they let others muscle in on their turf. This is why people can't quite figure out GW's fixation that all steaks must be well done.

Mr. Correct wrote:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you.

I have to scratch my head over this statement.
It does revolve around me: my choice to spend my money on them or elsewhere.
Their amazing corporate plans will be for nothing if their product does not fit in a cost to "want" ratio of their consumers.
Gamer types feed their company, foolish business plan not to factor that in.

People do need to recognize that we are all attracted to the hobby for different reasons.
The real problem is the opinionated types that are more than happy to express their views as the only correct ones.

I see the same behaviors all over about sport teams, politics, you name it: gamers have not cornered the market in opinionated people, it is everywhere.
The trick is to be inclusive and friendly, Mr Correct here is showing a fine example of how to scare away the fledgling "gamer".

Sushi? HERESEY!!!

(I live in a town where every other restaurant seems to be sushi, hehe)

It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

Nomeny wrote:
It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

I, too, found a thesaurus once.

 Talys wrote:
I love it... Citadel Finebeef!!

Many find it odd that Citadel Finebeef remains the best selling beef -- for some reason, despite declining sales, remains highly popular, and then there are those Sumo wrestlers that eat portions befitting a score of normal folk, and the Supersumos who buy Finebeef that they may enjoy it to the end of days, should there truly come the zombie apocalypse.

Except for WHFB of course.

Wow, it's hard to believe there are so many people here who can't accept reality. You people really think GW is a gaming company and not a model company? Gaming companies don't last. GW has lasted for decades where companies like FASA and TSR collapsed during the 90s. That's because they make real money by selling toys. The pennies that they make from rulebooks are just icing on the cake, and they prefer to sell books electronically because there's less overhead that way.

GW is considered less intelligent by _me_ at least, because of its many lazy and downrigth silyl decisions.

Why did they not release Hero Quest, Gorka Morka, Necromunda, Mordheim , Battlefleet gothic and other "specialist games" again? These were excellent games and great sellers as far as I know. Instead they now only sell two games (plus the hobitt) which demands 300$ investment at least.

Dont you think its silly to retract your business to publishing 2 main games, and one minor, when clearly there used to be, and still is a large market for true skirmish games with 5-10 models?

People are basically obsessing about their 40k universe, their video games Dawn of War series sold very very well. So... Where is the spin-off for the board game that might introduce people to GW's products?!

I've boardgamed and miniaturegamed (to a lesser extent) since the 1980's, and the 2010's is the best we ever had it. The quality, range and selection og board games and miniature games are expcetional. But GW has chosen to shrink the places you can buy their products, the number of games and reduced all their social media presence...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
WHFB certainly was not aimed at 12 year olds.
Things may be changing though...

You are incorrect. I played WHFB when I was 12, and the dozens of people who played it at my LGS were in the 10-14 age range. I grew out of it when I turned 15 back in the mid 90s. This is because GW fiction is aimed STRICTLY at the preteen/early teen demographic. Now, it's perfectly fine to enjoy cartoons that are made for children. Great cartoons like Adventure Time and Rocco's Modern Life are fun for all ages. But 40k and FB have been strictly cartoonish fiction for children since the early 1990s.

 clamclaw wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

I, too, found a thesaurus once.

I hear you can embiggen them quite large should you have some extra gloss in your pockets.

 triplegrim wrote:
GW is considered less intelligent by _me_ at least, because of its many lazy and downrigth silyl decisions.

Why did they not release Hero Quest, Gorka Morka, Necromunda, Mordheim , Battlefleet gothic and other "specialist games" again? These were excellent games and great sellers as far as I know. Instead they now only sell two games (plus the hobitt) which demands 300$ investment at least.

Dont you think its silly to retract your business to publishing 2 main games, and one minor, when clearly there used to be, and still is a large market for true skirmish games with 5-10 models?

People are basically obsessing about their 40k universe, their video games Dawn of War series sold very very well. So... Where is the spin-off for the board game that might introduce people to GW's products?!

I've boardgamed and miniaturegamed (to a lesser extent) since the 1980's, and the 2010's is the best we ever had it. The quality, range and selection og board games and miniature games are expcetional. But GW has chosen to shrink the places you can buy their products, the number of games and reduced all their social media presence...

Finally, a sane person posts in this thread!

Alternate Username wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
WHFB certainly was not aimed at 12 year olds.
Things may be changing though...

You are incorrect. I played WHFB when I was 12, and the dozens of people who played it at my LGS were in the 10-14 age range. I grew out of it when I turned 15 back in the mid 90s. This is because GW fiction is aimed STRICTLY at the preteen/early teen demographic. Now, it's perfectly fine to enjoy cartoons that are made for children. Great cartoons like Adventure Time and Rocco's Modern Life are fun for all ages. But 40k and FB have been strictly cartoonish fiction for children since the early 1990s.

I disagree somewhat. 3rd edition 40k was an attempt to make it more mature and serious, meanwhile the rules ironically became somewhat simpler than 2nd edition.

 triplegrim wrote:

I disagree somewhat. 3rd edition 40k was an attempt to make it more mature and serious

GHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA no, no it wasn't at all. If you're saying that over-the-top cartoon villains like the Dark Eldar were an attempt to appeal to adults rather than children then you might as well be saying Linkin Park was a band that targeted a mature demographic.

You must have missed the part where triplegrim wrote more. In that, on the whole, the entire edition was to make everything more mature and serious. Not that it was mature, but that it was more mature than previous incarnations.

I also have to wonder about an account with such a name, created today, with all 4 posts in the same heated GW thread.

@OP: Stuff like the Chairman's ramble-preamble from last year also make you question the intelligence, if not sanity of GW's management.

Alternate Username wrote:
Wow, it's hard to believe there are so many people here who can't accept reality. You people really think GW is a gaming company and not a model company? Gaming companies don't last. GW has lasted for decades where companies like FASA and TSR collapsed during the 90s. That's because they make real money by selling toys. The pennies that they make from rulebooks are just icing on the cake, and they prefer to sell books electronically because there's less overhead that way.

GW 'survived' decades while publishing a wide variety of games. Ever since they cut back on that, their fortunes have started to flag noticeably.

The past three years, when their game publishing activities have been lowest, and their model publishing activities have been highest, have seen continuous decline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alternate Username wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
WHFB certainly was not aimed at 12 year olds.
Things may be changing though...

You are incorrect. I played WHFB when I was 12, and the dozens of people who played it at my LGS were in the 10-14 age range. I grew out of it when I turned 15 back in the mid 90s. This is because GW fiction is aimed STRICTLY at the preteen/early teen demographic. Now, it's perfectly fine to enjoy cartoons that are made for children. Great cartoons like Adventure Time and Rocco's Modern Life are fun for all ages. But 40k and FB have been strictly cartoonish fiction for children since the early 1990s.

No doubt you are more intelligent than many players. I myself graduated from GW style games when I was about 12, and started playing much more complicated games. Since then I have had fun playing 40K largely for the modelling possibilities.

Of course if WHFB actually is aimed at 12 years old, it poses the question of what age the much simpler AoS rules are aimed at. GW suggest 10+, which I think is about right. If so, how much long term interest will they hold for 30 year olds?

 clamclaw wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

I, too, found a thesaurus once.

Not everybody needs a thesaurus for that. If you engage in discussions on religion on even a semi-regular basis, that kind of vocabulary is pretty common.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

I, too, found a thesaurus once.

Not everybody needs a thesaurus for that. If you engage in discussions on religion on even a semi-regular basis, that kind of vocabulary is pretty common.

Never use big words when a miniscule one will suffice.

 Blacksails wrote:
You must have missed the part where triplegrim wrote more. In that, on the whole, the entire edition was to make everything more mature and serious. Not that it was mature, but that it was more mature than previous incarnations.

Yes. The Dark Eldar is actually a good example at how the game turned darker and more serious; torture-fetischists with a clear sexual undertone to their post-raid activities.

I think Killkrazy has a good point in that GW actually sold games, not models, for a long and prosperous while. Many products like Space Crusade, Space Hulk and Hero Quest were actually pure board games. The models were not even compatible in many cases with the 40k game.

And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?

And further... where is GW's growth going to come from in the future? AoS?

Their failure to publish even a lazyday version of 7th edition for sisters of battle, a faction in their main game which has thousands of players, is stupefying for me. They are literally leaving their customers hanging out in the dark. It could just be a rehash of what they published back then, but it would sell! But they dont bother to put out an update even. What on earth are they thinking about?

The lack of creativity from them the last 4 years have been damaging, I am sure. Even if Dreadfleet was horribly executed, at least it was an attempt at something else than just re-releasing codex'es of various quality that just rehashes the 2.edition of 40k and continuously releasing new models for the factions that sells the best, which of course keeps on selling the best as they are continously being updated etc.

When I first saw WarmaHordes back in 2010, I smiled and thought; "No one is going to compete with the monumental GW", but now it is mainstream and gamewise quite the challenger at least in my eyes. Lets face it... You cant keep doing the same sh!t for ever and expect to turn a profit. The gaming/miniature model industry is no different.