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Well that and the fact that X-wing and Armada are in the top three ICV2 selling games of last year kind of lends credence to the idea that a strong game sells more models. WM/H is also a good example, and it occupies the 4th and 5th slots on that list. Funny enough, Warhammer Fantasy dropped off, and I don't think its because the models were bad.

 keezus wrote:
Meh. Sure looks matter. At first blush.. GW is like a restaurant that sells the highest quality Kobe beef steaks. (Or Citadel Finebeef, to quote the vernacular.) They are served with spectacular side dishes made of the freshest exotic ingredients. The dining area is pristine, luxurious and elegant. Their expert chefs lovingly prepare the Citadel Finebeef to a mouthwatering well done. This is the patented GW way to enjoy Finebeef. This doesn't take away from the fact that Finebeef is the finest beef you can get, and as it is oft argued, you might buy the Finebeef and have it prepared another way at a different restaurant... however - given the pedigree of their product... one can only scratch their head at how GW management direct their chefs to handle it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an aside... GW is actively cornering the market for well done premium steaks. This is an untapped market and GW is well positioned to dominate this area for years to come.

And then you discover that the finebeef came in a can labeled Alpo.

That it isn't the finest beef in the world, though it is premium beef byproducts....

But AoS is the next step - when water is added, it makes its own gravy!

The Auld Grump

@triplegrim: yes, some of us would purchase Space Marine models, even if there wasn't a game to play with them...
i've been collecting Space Marines since the first RT era minis came out, and i've never played a game with them...
i buy all of the products for the fiction and art, not the rules...
nothing inspires my imagination and desire to paint like the background of the Space Marines...

as to the debate about GW being a game or model company first, it is a neck and neck race...
Games Workshop was founded in 1975 to make wooden game boards for backgammon, Go, and the like...
they also started a gaming mag. (Owl & Weasel) in that year...
fast forward to 1977 and they changed the mag. to White Dwarf, and began to distribute D&D in the UK...
in 1978, the first Games Workshop retail store was opened...
in 1979 they helped finance the founding of Citadel Miniatures...
eventually, Citadel was absorbed by Games Workshop, not the other way around...

while the games have had a wide appeal, it is the miniatures that set GW games apart from the other games, like Battletech, that were using cardboard chits back in the day...
the models from Space Crusade and Heroquest were Citadel minis in a Milton-Bradely product, but were still compatible with the GW setting...
Space Hulk was pure GW, and the models ported straight into 40K...
i still see people getting use out of those 20+ year old minis, even today...
hell, i know people who use Battlemaster in their armies...

so really, there is not clear winner on either side of the argument...
it just boils down to GW's current marketing philosophy of, "do what you like"...
it's just a shame that so many people think that is a stupid way to promote a hobby...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@triplegrim: yes, some of us would purchase Space Marine models, even if there wasn't a game to play with them...
i've been collecting Space Marines since the first RT era minis came out, and i've never played a game with them...
i buy all of the products for the fiction and art, not the rules...
nothing inspires my imagination and desire to paint like the background of the Space Marines...

so really, there is not clear winner on either side of the argument...
it just boils down to GW's current marketing philosophy of, "do what you like"...
it's just a shame that so many people think that is a stupid way to promote a hobby...

cheers
jah

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I always apreciated the painters and collectors in the hobby. But without the fluff, rules and games I would never have taken a second look at it, I firmly believe I belong to the majority.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Not everybody needs a thesaurus for that. If you engage in discussions on religion on even a semi-regular basis, that kind of vocabulary is pretty common.

What, does religion have some sort of monopoly on language? How about, "Sometimes, people have a big vocabulary"?

@jah-joshua.
Could you try to see this from a 'gamers perspective,' rather than a 'collectors perspective?'

In an alternate reality where games workshop thinks rules are more important than minatures...

When you buy your box of GW minatures.You do not get excellent pre-formed pieces of H.I.P. on sprues.

But just some bases, a few bits of wire to make a minature armatures, and some green stuff to sculpt the minatures you want to.
So you get to pay a premium price for minatures you have to sculpt yourself.

And when you complain , GW say well if you know how to sculpt what is the problem, 'do what you like.'

And the other minature manufacturers are selling exquisite minatures that are a joy to assemble and paint.
When you point this out , the GW apologists say, sculpt the detail yourself!Or just go and buy the other minatures.

The quality of minatures and rules are equally important, IF you want to maintain and grow your business in the table top minature games market.

@Lanrak: there are plenty of people here to represent the gamer's perspective...
why should i not share my own view???

i am not going to silence my own voice in the mix, nor make up some elaborate "what if" to justify some people's dislike for the direction of AoS...
the game is playable out of the box, with the rules as written, it is just not playable in the manner that YOU would prefer...
it is not WFB 9th, but that doesn't mean that the game as written is analogous to your "Greenstuff in a box" analogy...
this is the second time i have seen you present this argument, and i ignored it the first time, because it doesn't hold water, in my opinion...

opinions vary, that is a fact of life...
some people said Dreadfleet was a horrible game, and some people have said they enjoy it...
i could be wrong, but i have a feeling that the majority of people who poopooed the game didn't actually play it, but read some bad reviews and piled on...
at least most seem to agree that the minis were beautiful...

some people are playing AoS right out of the box, and enjoying it...
some people choose to tweak the rules, which is their choice...
some people have tried it, and don't enjoy the radical change...
some people choose to dismiss the new rules out of hand...
some people say there are no longer any tactics, while the people playing are discovering more tactical depth each time they play...

your analogy falls down at "well GW say you know how to sculpt what is the problem"...
if i knew how to sculpt, why would i have a problem with a box that contained all of the building blocks i need to sculpt a mini???
the answer is, i wouldn't...

cheers
jah

For what it is worth, I did try Dreadfleet.

There was a reason that it got the reviews that it received - it was incredibly random, with no real tactics or...

Okay - Age of Sigmar is now explained!

The Auld grump, half in jest, yet in full earnest.

If game truly didnt matter people wouldn't be turned off starting a new WHFB army. But we all know practically every one is. I won the gw store golden gretchen award three times and am a golden demon finalist and I wouldn't make an army just for collectings sake. Forget that. Way too expensive. Easier to just paint a picture on canvas or computer and display that brah.

but that doesn't mean that the game as written is analogous to your "Greenstuff in a box" analogy...

It is. With no balance whatsoever, it's just a framework to build narratives.

@Lanrak - It's really simple:

"The hobby" is a balance of miniatures and gaming that tilts this way or that from one person to another. For some, the miniatures are a lot more important; for others, they're just game pieces.

Within the miniatures aspect, some people care about certain things (like big vehicles or interchangeable parts), while others have different priorities (like infantry, or nice models that don't take long to assemble to game-ready).

Within the game, different people find different aspects enjoyable -- to some, it's really important to meet up with people with agreed-upon limitations and surprise each other with armies and compete for victory; for others, it's more about creating the most enjoyable gaming experience; and other still it's all about storytelling. For some, none of that matters at all, as long as it's an excuse to get together with buddies, socialize, have food and drink, and move miniatures around.

So it just depends on what you want. GW makes great miniatures that has humongous customizability, depth and breadth for games that are best played with a cooperative pregame mindset, and GW really loves their campaigns. Their rules aren't the best (nobody thinks they're balanced), but some people find them very fun. It's also relatively expensive.

PP makes great miniatures that have minimal customizability, more limited depth and breadth that GW, but greater than any other company, and foster an environment for competitive gameplay. PP really likes that scene, including the tournaments. Their rules are well-liked by their players, though if you look on their forums, it's evident that there are huge balance and meta issues (certainly, not all 50 points are made the same, and contrary to what some would say, you can't win with just any 50 points against a good, competitive list). It's cheaper than 40k, about the same price as AoS, and also "relatively expensive" -- to some people.

To take a perfect example of an inexpensive game, I loved Battletech back when FASA just produced it in a box set with paper counters for all the mechs. Buy the game, have all the game pieces, and as a game it was perfect.

There are plenty of other games and miniature manufacturers all across the spectrum, so the best thing is simply to find a company that's a good fit for you, rather than force it with a company that ISN'T a good fit.

Obviously... I don't know how much more obvious GW can be about it... but *obviously* GW doesn't like the tournament / supercompetitive scene. So if that's your thing, as a game, GW games will probably not be the optimal experience.

You could say that it's equally obvious that PP has no interest in making games that fill out 6x4 and 8x12 tables with hundreds of models. Sure, you force it to work, but WMH with 100 models per side on a 6x4 is going to be an awful game without major tweaks.

It's like trying to enjoy your yacht on dry land, or drive your car through water.

Unless you're James Bond, it's just not going to work very well -- meaning, you can make the yacht lots of fun without water and you can make the car float like a boat and dive like a sub, but it's not easy, so why not just play with something closer to what you like to start with? If you like camping.. buy an RV, not a sailboat; if sailing is your thing, don't buy a third wheel! Or buy one, but don't be surprised when it's not what you expect.

keep in mind, i was replying to triplegrim's line of, "And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?"

my reply was, yes, SOME people would still purchase Space Marine models even if there was no game to play with them in...
i have never argued that that would be enough people to support the company without a game...
i have never claimed that the games are unimportant to the health of sales...
i have stated that the games are important to my clients, but that i would still collect and paint even if there were no games to go with the models...

please don't assume that i am saying the games aspect of Games Workshop is not important to the success of the company...
i have clearly stated that i don't play the games, not that the games are unimportant to the health of sales...
when someone makes an absolute statement that NOBODY would buy the models without the games, i simply chime in to say that there are plenty of painters out there who collect models exclusively to paint...

cheers
jah

Well, I'm sure we can all agree that calling GW strictly a miniatures company is ridiculous.

Because every guy sitting at his computer and pontificating on the right way to run a multi-million pound corporation after finishing his shift delivering pizza is smarter than guys who actually run multi-million pound corporations. Isn't that obvious?

 jah-joshua wrote:
keep in mind, i was replying to triplegrim's line of, "And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?"

my reply was, yes, SOME people would still purchase Space Marine models even if there was no game to play with them in...

Well, I would. But I probably would not have nearly as many!

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, I'm sure we can all agree that calling GW strictly a miniatures company is ridiculous.

I agree. That's just silly They don't just write games and game rules, but they like doing it! Just their idea of a good time diverges greatly from a decently large chunk of the population.

 jah-joshua wrote:
keep in mind, i was replying to triplegrim's line of, "And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?"

my reply was, yes, SOME people would still purchase Space Marine models even if there was no game to play with them in...
i have never argued that that would be enough people to support the company without a game...
i have never claimed that the games are unimportant to the health of sales...
i have stated that the games are important to my clients, but that i would still collect and paint even if there were no games to go with the models...

please don't assume that i am saying the games aspect of Games Workshop is not important to the success of the company...
i have clearly stated that i don't play the games, not that the games are unimportant to the health of sales...
when someone makes an absolute statement that NOBODY would buy the models without the games, i simply chime in to say that there are plenty of painters out there who collect models exclusively to paint...

cheers
jah

GW making a business model on such hobbyists though....there are some who would deem it unwise.

Bede19025 wrote:
Because every guy sitting at his computer and pontificating on the right way to run a multi-million pound corporation after finishing his shift delivering pizza is smarter than guys who actually run multi-million pound corporations. Isn't that obvious?

Did you have something useful to add to this conversation?

Depends if the guys actually running multi-million pound corporations are experiencing ever-decreasing sales and apparently don't have a clue why it's happening.

I don't think most of the criticisms are so much 'here's how I'd run GW' as 'here's what GW should do to get me buying again', anyway. It just so happens that a lot of ex-GW fans have the same handful of problems with what GW's doing, so some inferences can be drawn.

Bede19025 wrote:
Because every guy sitting at his computer and pontificating on the right way to run a multi-million pound corporation after finishing his shift delivering pizza is smarter than guys who actually run multi-million pound corporations. Isn't that obvious?

What makes you think that a former taxman with no experience of running any business at all outside of the one he's currently making a mess of is more intelligent than me?

@TheAuldGrump: well, i did say that i could be wrong...
my point was that i have seen people say that they have enjoyed Dreadfleet, and AoS, out of the box...
the depth may not be enough for you, and a large number of other people, but that does not mean that the games are unplayable, rules as written, right out of the box, which is where i feel Lanrak's "Greenstuff" analogy falls down...

@TBM: different strokes for different folks...
if i wanted to paint pictures, i would...
i happen to want to paint miniatures...
nothing else will scratch that itch...

@Blacksails: i'm pretty sure it is GW pushing that line, and not the majority of the customer base...
that doesnt make it ridiculous, especially since their actual description is, "Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful hobby miniatures company in the world.", and " At its core the hobby is all about our amazing miniatures and collecting, modelling, painting  and playing games with armies of them", not we are STRICTLY a miniatures company...

the recent trend in sales strategy does seem to have turned up the need for more models in their games, so the game aspect is still there, but the minis take priority in what they are pushing...
a sale of one Codex and rulebook, versus the whole army of minis, illustrates why they would push the importance of the minis more...

for me, they ARE a miniatures company first and foremost...
for others, the game is most important...
then there are a lot of people in between...
this is why i put more importance on individual perspective, rather than overarching statements about some collective "them"...

again, i am not saying that collectors are enough of a source of revenue without the games, and i don't think that GW is saying that either...
they did just release a new game, after all...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
keep in mind, i was replying to triplegrim's line of, "And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?"

Some people like the hobby side much more than the game side. I live in BFE with absolutely no gaming group within 30-50 miles, have played about a half-dozen games of 40k since getting into miniatures with 2nd edition, but still have 6 different armies, ranging from Marines, to SoB, to Necrons, Eldar and even 4th edition Kroot Mercs.

If I even play soon, it will be 2nd edition with the wife or a buddy.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
keep in mind, i was replying to triplegrim's line of, "And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?"

Some people like the hobby side much more than the game side. I live in BFE with absolutely no gaming group within 30-50 miles, have played about a half-dozen games of 40k since getting into miniatures with 2nd edition, but still have 6 different armies, ranging from Marines, to SoB, to Necrons, Eldar and even 4th edition Kroot Mercs.

If I even play soon, it will be 2nd edition with the wife or a buddy.

I dont ment to insult anybody, but if the hobby is more interesting for certain people than the actual playing and dice rolling why.... why dont just buy Revell, Tamiya and etc. kits and... you know, just paint minis rather than come to forums and complain about rules, prices and etc.

 jah-joshua wrote:
it just boils down to GW's current marketing philosophy of, "do what you like"...
it's just a shame that so many people think that is a stupid way to promote a hobby...

The thing is, people don't think that 'do what you like' is a stupid way to promote the hobby. What they think is stupid is not backing that philosophy up with a product that actually encourages this philosophy, beyond expecting players to finish writing the rules themselves.


IF GW wrote a solid, functional, complete ruleset, and published it with that same philosophy ('Hey, here's a set of rules. Do with them what you will!') there would be far fewer complaints.
If they backed that up with campaign books that provided ideas and material for building campaigns, or suggested ways to change the game to mix the experience up a little, there would be far fewer complaints.

What we're seeing instead is exactly the same thing as happened when GW released the Inquisitor game - In that case, they published what was essentially an RPG, with a bare bones range of miniatures, and said 'There you go! Have fun!' ... and players by and large said 'Uh... what am I supposed to do with it?'


Because at the end of the day, most players don't want to write their own rules. They want to buy a game that they can play. The freedom to alter those rules is inherent in any game that you buy... but to ensure that your game reaches the widest audience, the framework you give your players has to be solid.

People might want to alter your rules. They don't want to have to finish writing them.

Well, I guess we all can agree that there is a majority that plays the game, and a minority that mostly models and collects. Not making any comment on the sizes of these two groups.

I also should say that I like 7th edition 40k. It has rarely been better to play 40k than now.

I am just crestfallen that GW would choose to shrink their appeal, their product range, their advertisements, their outlets, their sellers etc.

Perhaps it is because of their philosophy of controlling every unit in the production chain... It is part of what made them the biggest company in the hobby, and might be what is holding them back now. Their war on their own retailers is something they must be quite alone in doing.

@DalinCriid: neither AegisGrimm, nor i, were complaining about prices, rules, etc...
we were just saying we like to buy and paint 40K models, whether or not they get used in the game...
i thought that a forum was a place for people who enjoy the same thing to get together and talk shop, for better or worse...

as to why not Revell and Tamiya, for me, as i have said many times, they don't inspire me to paint in the same way as a Space Marine kit does...
why buy something i am not that interested in???

i think you are right in one aspect, the more i post, the more i see that i should just shut up and paint, rather than talk about why i love painting GW minis...

@insaniak: as i said, i see people playing with the ruleset right out of the box...
from what i am seeing, it is a complete ruleset, it just isn't the ruleset that a large amount of the community wanted...

@triplegrim: those all seem like very reasonable statements to me...

cheers
jah

@Jah,

Nah, don't get me wrong, I adore painting GW stuff, but for me they will always be a game developer, rather than model sellers. But there are also another party of fans that read only the fluff and could not care less If we have a models vs game argument.

I go paint too. Apologies if i derail the thread or something.

I have a feeling that GW only produced Boutique Miniatures, the cost in general would be much less to consumers. Here's my reasoning. If GW was minis only:

1. There would be no brick and mortar retail arm.

2. There would be no game devs
2a: There would probably be no White Dwarf, and if it was reduced to a modelling publication, it'd probably be made quarterly.

3. The model ranges would be much smaller. Without a game to support, there would be little reason to produce all the variants for any particular model. The quantity of rank and file troops would be much reduced. This has positive impacts on costs for the whole production process from design, equipment and inventory.

4. Without the game pushing the production of such huge quantities of models, much of the range would remain metal, lowering their internal costs.

5. All but the most basic vehicles would be moved over to Forgeworld which would act as GW's super-enthusiast arm.

Alas, this isn't possible, as GW's strategy hinges on the game acting as a gateway to their product. Their fiction doesn't have enough penetration into the market consciousness. They have had middling success with video games, but haven't acted to take advantage of increased visibility those opportunities offered. Their Legal team has shut down all the fan films and GW proper released the laughable: Ultramarines film.

Oh well... it's their company.

Because their current business model is failing and they keep making the same mistakes.

Any company that takes pride in not doing market research and have cut themselves off from all forms of customer feedback can be thought of as idiotic in at least that choice.

Nomeny wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

I, too, found a thesaurus once.

I hear you can embiggen them quite large should you have some extra gloss in your pockets.

You left out a reference to Cromulent (which, unfortunately, is now an actual word).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
It's the Dunning-Kreuger effect, essentially. That and low-information inferences made in a situation where they can't be falsified.

I, too, found a thesaurus once.

Not everybody needs a thesaurus for that. If you engage in discussions on religion on even a semi-regular basis, that kind of vocabulary is pretty common.

Yep... And some of us even went to school and got to sit through entire classes where the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and the tendencies of the masses were concerned. It's our career (or will be as soon as I get a new freaking doctor who isn't going to hold me hostage).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanrak wrote:
@jah-joshua.
Could you try to see this from a 'gamers perspective,' rather than a 'collectors perspective?'

In an alternate reality where games workshop thinks rules are more important than minatures...

When you buy your box of GW minatures.You do not get excellent pre-formed pieces of H.I.P. on sprues.

But just some bases, a few bits of wire to make a minature armatures, and some green stuff to sculpt the minatures you want to.
So you get to pay a premium price for minatures you have to sculpt yourself.

And when you complain , GW say well if you know how to sculpt what is the problem, 'do what you like.'

And the other minature manufacturers are selling exquisite minatures that are a joy to assemble and paint.
When you point this out , the GW apologists say, sculpt the detail yourself!Or just go and buy the other minatures.

The quality of minatures and rules are equally important, IF you want to maintain and grow your business in the table top minature games market.

Jah-Joshua seems to enjoy being a contrarian and post-modernist.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:
I have a feeling that GW only produced Boutique Miniatures, the cost in general would be much less to consumers. Here's my reasoning. If GW was minis only:

1. There would be no brick and mortar retail arm.

2. There would be no game devs
2a: There would probably be no White Dwarf, and if it was reduced to a modelling publication, it'd probably be made quarterly.

3. The model ranges would be much smaller. Without a game to support, there would be little reason to produce all the variants for any particular model. The quantity of rank and file troops would be much reduced. This has positive impacts on costs for the whole production process from design, equipment and inventory.

4. Without the game pushing the production of such huge quantities of models, much of the range would remain metal, lowering their internal costs.

5. All but the most basic vehicles would be moved over to Forgeworld which would act as GW's super-enthusiast arm.

Alas, this isn't possible, as GW's strategy hinges on the game acting as a gateway to their product. Their fiction doesn't have enough penetration into the market consciousness. They have had middling success with video games, but haven't acted to take advantage of increased visibility those opportunities offered. Their Legal team has shut down all the fan films and GW proper released the laughable: Ultramarines film.

Oh well... it's their company.

Yep!

That is how Model Companies operate.

I have a bunch of Tamiya, Hasegawa, Aoshima, and Fujimi 1/700 Scale Waterline ships.

But I can go out and buy aftermarket brass-etched parts, or cast-resin replacement turrets for early/mid/late-war upgrades for many ships, or resin scenics for displaying them.

I don't really play games with them (I would if I could find someone with a basketball court on which to play), but simply to collect them (mostly destroyers, since they are pretty small, but a few cruisers).

But you can look at ANY Model Company and see this exact same organization or "business model" used for these companies, and they are have fairly successful businesses.

MB

If the game doesn't matter, why does GW charge higher prices for game's most effective units?