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** GW FAQ DRAFT UPDATE**

In the ordnance section on the question if firing an ordnance weapon causes all other shots to be snapshots, moving or otherwise (the second question).
They give hellstrike missiles as an example. They say that firing two missiles causes them both to be fired at the same time at full BS.
They even mention the select a weapon step. It doesn't clarify whether or nor you are forced to fire all equipped missiles or not, but at least we have confirmation that you can fire them at full BS. So they're not paperweight at the very least.

** GW FAQ DRAFT UPDATE **


Those weapons used to be missile types and had their own rules, but now they are simply weapon profiles with the one use special rule.

Now on page 30 "select a weapon" it says this:
"If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected"

This would imply that that a Chaos fire raptor would either fire those awful ordnance hellstrike missiles in a dedicated salvo all at once....or not at all.
This makes more sense to me than the giving them ordnance and trying to fire one at a time, which is what makes them so bad. If you have to fire them all at once though, they wouldn't be nearly as bad and tbh that would be quite scary, especially given the points cost.

Ar as the rules are concerned this seems pretty clear to me. They have 4 weapons named "Hellstrike Missiles" and so should you choose to fire one, you would fire all. And presumably this means you also fire them simultaneously and thus at full BS.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

You pick how many will fire, then all the ones you picked fire at once

Same as a unit with bolters not having to have every model fire them.

But this is different. This is only a single model. So according to the the rule I posted you wouldn't get to choose individual missiles, unless there is a rule I'm missing.

Hellstrike is ordnance, so other shots will be snap shots... so cant fire other hellstrikes after first as you cannot shap shot ordnance weapons. Unless you use power of the machine spirit. I made a similar thread to this a while ago

Yea but that's the thing, AFTER firing them, but according to that rule, you would fire all the missiles.
So either they fire at the same time and are thus unaffected by ordnance, since the the snapshot restriction kicks in after the other missiles have been shot already.
Or as you say, you fire one and then the other can'T be shot, but that makes less sense to me than shooting the missiles as a single weapon group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 36 (Select another weapon)says that after resolving all the attacks from one weapon you choose a differently named weapon. Which to me indicates you're not firing the other missiles as a different weapon. And a vehicle that shoots an ordnance weapon can only snaphot with OTHER weapons, but since the missile would count as the same weapon , they wouldn't be affected by that rule.

I can't really find anything that specifically states that one weapon group would be fired simultaneously, but I doesn't make much sense to shoot the missiles individually to me and yet not treat them as different weapons, which would be reuired to make the other missiles fire snapshots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, page 31 on the top left has this in bold:
" All the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time"
And since one model with several identically named weapons fires all those weapons if it chooses that name, then that would further make my case that all the missiles fire simultaneously and are not affected by ordnance themselves.

A fire raptor would thus choose " Hellstrike Missiles" and fire all of them (4 as a zooming flyer) at the same time. This would consume its 4 weapon allowance as a flyer, but all missiles would fire at BS4(5). The individual side turrets in the case of a fire raptor would then be forced to fire snap shots however.

Roknar wrote:
But this is different. This is only a single model. So according to the the rule I posted you wouldn't get to choose individual missiles, unless there is a rule I'm missing.

No, it's multiple iterations of the same weapon. Same as the sponsons on a Predator.

And accoording to how you select weapons, you would fire all the sponsons at the same time too.

Or even sponson mounted heavy bolters and pintle mounted heavy bolters. As they are all named Heavy Bolter, they would all fire simultaniously.

Though some may not be able to hit the target, because of LoS or whatever.
I don't see how this is any different to firing missiles?

Because they're separate weapons. By your reading if either sponson can't see, both can't fire.

So you choose to fire Sponson 1A and Sponson 1B or not. As they're the same weapon you fire them at the same time, but you still choose IF

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You pick how many will fire, then all the ones you picked fire at once

Same as a unit with bolters not having to have every model fire them.

This. While not explicitly clear the rules are that each individual model can choose not to fire each individual weapon for any given phase and not if each individual model is firing at all. This means you can choose not to fire 3 of 4 identically named weapons on a single model.

You fire the same weapon as a group in a normal unit too, yet some could be out range and not be able to wound. They're separate weapons, but they are all selected together and fire at the same time.
Depending on the circumstances though, some of those might not be able to any damage. The same still works on a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You pick how many will fire, then all the ones you picked fire at once

Same as a unit with bolters not having to have every model fire them.

This. While not explicitly clear the rules are that each individual model can choose not to fire each individual weapon for any given phase and not if each individual model is firing at all. This means you can choose not to fire 3 of 4 identically named weapons on a single model.

It only says that a player can choose not to fire with certain models. In the case of a vehicle you would have to say whether or not you want to fire a given weapon and then you fire all those weapons it has.
You can then later declare a different weapon and choose not to fire that weapon with the tank, but when you do, it will fire all of them. As far as I can tell anyway.

The rules seem to be made for infantry models in mind, and they don't seem adapted very well for tanks.
But according to the rules, it would go like this:
1. choose a unit (the tank).
2. choose a target.
3 . SELECT A WEAPON.

Then declare if you wish to shoot that weapon or not, and if you do, you shoot ALL of those weapons together at the same time. (because the unit consist of a single model in this case). So all identically named weapons on the tank would fire.

You wouldn't have to fire all heavy bolters in a squadron, but would have to fire all heavy bolters on each vehicle that does shoot.

Intercessor wrote:
Hellstrike is ordnance, so other shots will be snap shots... so cant fire other hellstrikes after first as you cannot shap shot ordnance weapons. Unless you use power of the machine spirit. I made a similar thread to this a while ago

Unless it moves exactly 18" a zooming flyer is considered moving at cruising speed, cruising vehicles are allowed to snap shot ordnance unless that ordnance cannot normally be snap shot(blasts like most are); the hellstrike missile is basically the only ordnance weapon that can be snap shot.

If we expand the RAW for RAI vehicles should normally be able to snap shot all ordnance so long as the ordnance weapon in question is not denied snap shots via other rules(blast/template). This is not a written allowance but an implication via the "can still snap shot ordnance while cruising" rule.

Of course firing 2 hellstrikes will always force both to snapshot since firing an ordance weapon causes all other weapons(including another ordnance weapon, even the same named one) to snapshot that turn(also meaning if you can fire a weapon in the movement phase you must snap shot it in order to fire the ordnance weapon in the shooting phase).

But that would mean you could only ever shoot the missiles as snapshot, since you have to fire all the same weapons simultaneously. I still don't see anything that gives you the choice to fire only a subset of a selected weapon. It's either all or nothing.

Each weapon on a vehicle is considered as if it were a separate model for firing it. So, again, you select how many models (weapons) will fire that type of weapon, then you fire.

May I have a Rule quote for that please?
Finding it difficult to locate in the book where it states a Vehicle Weapons are treated as separate firing Models.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Each weapon on a vehicle is considered as if it were a separate model for firing it. So, again, you select how many models (weapons) will fire that type of weapon, then you fire.

That only applies to cover once you fire. (Page 74 top left)

Page 73: "Vehicles in the shooting phase" states they fire like any other unit.
They're only treated as though they were separate for figuring out whether the unit /model in question gains cover or the shot is blocked completely.

So again, according to the shooting phase sequence on page 30, you choose the tank, choose the target an select a weapon. And according to the rules or select a weapon that means you fire all identically named weapons simultaniuously as stated in the beginning of that that section:
"When firing at a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time bore moving to any differently named weapons."

It says that a MODEL may choose not to fire that weapon (group), but it mentions nothing about a model only shooting a subset of a selected weapon choice.

Page 73 also states that when you fire an ordnance weapon that all other weapons fire snap shots. I suppose you can say that firing 4 missiles would cause all 4 to snapshot.
But as far as I am concerned, you choose a weapon aka one particular missile, that does not snapshot. The others will. So 1 would fire at full BS , the other 3 at BS1. But My group will houserule that to a weapon group, because we think that any scenario where you fire all 4 missile and them snapshotting is BS.

So for me, it seems pretty clear that that when firing hellstrike missiles (or other sponson/pintleMounted/etc weapons of the same name), that you either fire ALL or none. And how or if they snap shot?...up to you.

It is more likely the 'vacuum effect,' Game Workshop Rules are written to deal with only the simplest of interactions and the Shooting Sequence doesn't take into account Vehicles with multiple of the same Weapon.

Honestly I'm surprised we didn't get an AoS-esque rules edition before lol.

Give it 2 years, I cxan imagine we will.

"If a model chooses not to shoot with the currently selected weapon now, it cannot fire that weapon later during the same phase (but it can shoot a differently named weapon it is equipped with)." This implies each model has the ability or permission not to shoot each of its weapons. From this we can infer that a model with multiple weapons of the same name need not fire all of them, but in choosing not to fire 1 or more of them is deprived of its ability to do so for the rest of the phase.

That just implies that GW can't write rules worth a damn lol.

First they tell you to select a(1) weapon. Then they they tell you that you must fire all of the other identically named weapons you're carrying if you can shoot with more than one.

And then they say that a model can choose not to fire the selected weapon.
So technically you can choose to not fire the the chosen weapon, but it doesn't stop the model from firing all the other identically named weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said I wouldn't complain if somebody fires only a subset of a weapon group.
I'm just saying that with RAW,it looks like you would have to fire them together and don't get to choose.

And as your firing all the same weapons at the same time, HIWPI, is that ordnance does not force snap shots for that group.
As in the hellstrike missiles force you to snap shot other weapons, rather than each missile forcing each other missile to fire as snapshots.

You cannot play 40k by pure RAW at face value, there are simply too many inconsistencies and later statements that imply more flexible choices.

Case in point tau crisis suits: you have 3 hardpoints that can each have a weapon. 2 of those weapons can be the same with a 3rd different weapon and a special r
Rule allowin you to fire 2 weapons.if you go pure raw you can only ever fire the 2 same weapons if you fire then first. Even though the above quote implies greater choice in such situations. Lets say you have a team of 3 suits each with 2 burst cannons and a fusion blaster(6 gun drones are also an option here): you are well within range of a unit of space marines that has the enemy warlord librarian attached. Now your best choice to get slay the warlord with this unit is to fire 2 burst cannons from 1 suit and 1 from each other for 4 total(or the drones first then the bursts), then after killing the rest of the squad firing the 2 remaining fusions. Bits of RAW at least imply this to be valid, and it makes sense as a capability. But if you go pure, hard, raw on it then you only get 4 bursts from 2 suits and 1 fusion(with a wasted allowance for the second gun since bust cannons have already been fired); which puts an undue restriction on the third suit.

I agree that 40k can't be played at face value.
But to me at least, the closest to RAW in this case would be that a model fires all of it's identical guns or none.

Which can be easily adapted to allowing some of those not to be fired. My group will play it as firing all or nothing though. It's kinda silly not to be able to fire a single rocket but we prefer to stick as close as possible to RAW.

**bump due to faq update**

You really didn't to bump a year old thread because of the new FAQ

I had considered that, but the faq giving a semi official ruling now made me decide it would be worth updating for people that might still be on the fence.

Yeah, best off in a new thread.

No harm done though.