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Co0n wrote:
This sentence is just meant to clarify, that you can't take all your saves. In no way does it tell you to use the best save but rather points out what the advantage of having more than one save is.
So even if 3+ is better than 4+, you still can choose to take the 4+ because of the reroll.

I used to take the 3+ until I understood, that there is no rule that forces me to take a worse save to my advantage.

Please read the rule again, as it doesn't say what you claim that it does.

In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

The rule doesn't give you the advantage of choosing which save you wish to use. It gves you the advantage of always using the best available save.

And the best save is never defined for anything other than armour saves and we are never given even a hint about how to compare different types of save.

 FlingitNow wrote:
And the best save is never defined for anything other than armour saves and we are never given even a hint about how to compare different types of save.

That however is not the argument being made in the post I replied to. His argument was you got to choose which save to use, not that the rerollable 4+ was better than the 3+.

I think the main thrust of his argument is the sentence is essentially meaningless and more about context than an actual in game effect (which is correct).

Co0n wrote:
So even if 3+ is better than 4+, you still can choose to take the 4+ because of the reroll.

That seems counter to that however, saying that he gets to choose which to take just because of the reroll.

I agree what he wrote was not as accurate as it could be. Though the essential outcome is the same.

Off topic: Wow, I had no idea when I asked the question that we would have 4 pages of discussion on the subject!

On topic: Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and leave the decision up to individual play groups to resolve it, at least until there is an official FAQ on the subject.

 FlingitNow wrote:
And the best save is never defined for anything other than armour saves and we are never given even a hint about how to compare different types of save.

If you go your route, you have nothing to tell you how to take an invulnerable save

Or, the armour save section sets out the basic rules, and then the invulnerable and cover saves state how they differe from armour saves. Which is what they do.

Thus you CAN compare saves.

IMHO the game Designers did not expect you to take out your calculators and swing the mathhammer.

Since you have the advantage of taking the best save available ( but with no word the obligation) the best save is the 3+ armour with the Option to take a worse 4+ (which you may reroll if necessary).

Btw: the wording of the ravenwing rule is important. It allows to reroll the save. The save itself therefore stays 4+.

So it's up to you to decide if you let your opponent take a worse but rerollable save or stay with the strickt RAW.

 Ghaz wrote:

Co0n wrote:

In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

The rule doesn't give you the advantage of choosing which save you wish to use. It gves you the advantage of always using the best available save.

BRB says that armor save 3+ is better than armor save 4+? That we can agree on.

A couple of scenarios, if you will:

1) I shoot plasma at your captain with 2+ save. I insist you take the save on 2+, thus causing a wound, instead of using Iron Halo's 4+ invu, because the Rulebook Says So. Do you agree?

2) I shoot plasma at your Ravenwing biker with 3+ save. I insist you take the save on 3+, thus causing a wound, instead of the rerollable 4+ cover save, because the Rulebook Says So. Do you agree?

Neither makes sense. Rulebook does not say that 3+ armor save is better than 4+ cover save, it is simply an example that Big Number Is Not Always The Best. It's circumstancial and I get the advantage of choosing what is best for each situation.

No, you do not have the choice. The rules define "better" and thus "best" follows.

Against an AP2 weapon you cannot take an armour save. So 1) isnt even up for discussion using the actual rules.

For 2, the armour save is better than the cover save. You cannot cosider rerolls. If you assert otherwise please provide a rule. Page and graph

Scenario 1) und 2) are just wrong.
Against an AP2 Weapon there is no armour save. End of Story.


And once again and agreeing with nosferato1001:

The jink save is 4+, the ravenwing rule just allows you to take it again if it's failed.
The Cover save therefore is not as good as the armor save.

This is supported by the wording of the ravenwing rule (reroll a failed save -> the save is 4+) and the Intention of the Gamedesigners. They surely did not expect your to calculate the statistical results.

Since the majority seems to agree, that you cannot pick the save you want to take, then it must be the 3+ armour and not the 4+ rerollable.


PS: I play Ravening myself, just to clarify my intentions.

They surely did not expect your to calculate the statistical results. 

Why not they expect you to calculate your army list usibg potentially dozens of sources. A simple statistical calulation is easy by comparison and is a fundamental part of playing the game.

Also not a thing in the rules ever states a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover, or indeed a 3+ cover is better than a 4+ cover.

It feels like I would be cheating another player out of a rerollable save that they paid for - I would give them the rerollable if they want it, despite rules argument.

It seems strange that they could jink out of a plasma gun, but not bolter fire? Both are rapid fire...

Forcing them to 3+ feels like I am being a rules lawyer.

Fling - you keep stating it, but it was shown false. Your failure to abide by the tenets is again noted and raised.

Co0n wrote:
Scenario 1) und 2) are just wrong.
Against an AP2 Weapon there is no armour save. End of Story.

Whoosh and it went way over your head! Point was that BRB does not tell us how to compare the different saves available.

I know what is the best save in each case, so I will use the best available save in each situation, thus I'd use rerollable 4+ cover save instead of my 3+ armor save.

Next time I'll add <sarcasm> tags, maybe that helps.

And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

Please provide the rule that tells me how to compare various saves, not just armor saves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - you keep stating it, but it was shown false. Your failure to abide by the tenets is again noted and raised.

So disprove it with a quote that tells us how to compare saves that aren't armour saves. Your dishonest approach does not help the discussion.

Naw wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

Please provide the rule that tells me how to compare various saves, not just armor saves.

Read the rest of the thread, it's been mentioned already. It still doesn't change the fact that your examples with the plasma only had a single save each.

 Ghaz wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're missing the point that in each of your examples there is only a single save.

Please provide the rule that tells me how to compare various saves, not just armor saves.

Read the rest of the thread, it's been mentioned already. It still doesn't change the fact that your examples with the plasma only had a single save each.

I have read it and there is no rule to describe that. So you concede the point then, good.

And where is your proof for your claims? I thought so...

 Ghaz wrote:
And where is your proof for your claims? I thought so...

Nice try. I am not the one who made a claim, you did. Go ahead and show us where BRB says how different save types are valued.

If you are allowed to make your armor save due to a weapon being ap4 for instance, why tank the 4+ rerollable? Cause you want dark angels to be good? They'll never be good.... Never...

For real. If you just want rerollables and hard to kill units play necrons. They suck to play against and you won't have friends, but at least your army does rerollable stuff right.

Naw wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And where is your proof for your claims? I thought so...

Nice try. I am not the one who made a claim, you did. Go ahead and show us where BRB says how different save types are valued.

Except you did make a claim, just like you claimed that you still consider a save that you don't get when determining what your best save is. There is a precedent set for determining what constitutes the model's best save. Now prove your claims that that is not how you determine the best saves in other instances. Please prove your claims that your best save is the one that your most likely to pass.

Figures, you can't show me the rule that says how to value different saves, yet you insist that it is there. Now show the rule or concede the point.

I think we are done here, Ghaz, thanks for trying.

And so far, you've failed to back up your claims. If we were to go by what you're saying we would have no idea if a 5+ armour save is better or worse than a 6+ armour save and we'd have to use the 3+ armour save against an AP2 weapon. Maybe you should be more concerned over the plank in your eye before worrying about the mote in someone else's.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
you want dark angels to be good? They'll never be good.... Never...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

wrap it up guys time to play another army

I think we're unlikely to get anything else productive out of this one...

As always, discuss with your opponent if in doubt.

Moving on.