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I say more Uriel Ventrisness and less Cato Sicariusness. Though they have been fleshing Cato out abit more but he's still a douche.

 j31c3n wrote:
IMO the Ultramarines don't need a "flaw." It's not necessary. They aren't the chapter that all other chapters aspire to be. That was just Ward being a fan and taking it too far.. It's not reflected in the newer fluff or the older fluff. Ultramarines are like Mario. Pretty good at everything. But you call someone else if you need a specialist. Jack of all trades, master of none.

The problem is that the fluff doesn't appear to indicate that. They flat out say they are the best there is.

Someone said their flaw was pride, which all the other chapters suffer from. And then the other chapters suffer from their other problems. Which is ridiculous.

 Nevelon wrote:
All they need to be cool is for the internet hate train to find another target. It was cool to hate them for a while. And that’s mostly over. It’s just a lingering miasma now, just echoes of past hate. They are just as over the top as the other factions. But as the poster boys, they are an easy target. Ward fanboy-ism didn’t help. But that’s another hate train.

I /do/ have a reason to hate the smurfs - every UM player I have met IRL is firmly in the belief that Ultra Marines are not just the best marines, but infallible. And get upset whenever they lose. And have this view of fluff - "Ultras cannot lose, they are Ultras, and they win because they are Ultras".
It's good to think your faction is the best, but these guys just keep going on about it.

Make them cool by having a disaster that results in:

-The UM actually fail a campaign.
-Calgar either dies, or gets put in a Dreadnought
-Sicarius dies.
-The UM have to get saved by another chapter, or some IG (I don't care who)

they did lose a DAYUMnos right?

I can't recall if they managed to 1-up the crons there at a later date, in a continuation of the campaign.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
IMO the Ultramarines don't need a "flaw." It's not necessary. They aren't the chapter that all other chapters aspire to be. That was just Ward being a fan and taking it too far.. It's not reflected in the newer fluff or the older fluff. Ultramarines are like Mario. Pretty good at everything. But you call someone else if you need a specialist. Jack of all trades, master of none.

The problem is that the fluff doesn't appear to indicate that. They flat out say they are the best there is.

Page numbers, please.

I don't play Ultramarine (and never really wanted to), but I'm not sure why they would have to be made 'cool' again. I think they already pretty much are.

From what I understood from the lore I read (which is not that much I have to say), is the Ultramarine are role-model wanna be. They might (or might not) be the best at everything, but no one really care because every chapter don't want to be like them.

In the codex (I had the last one, not sure if I can give page number or whatever), it seem to me like that (like j31c3n mention before) Ultramarine are good at everything, master of nothing. For exemple, Imperial Fist seem to be describe as better than Ultramarine for siege and trench warfare.

On a final note, I think that when the legion fade out into chapter, most of the chapter ''lost'' their specialisation, since the command structure and stuff is not as flexible as before.

The main problem that many have with the Ultramarines is how they are (or at least are in the 5E book) described as better than everyone at everything, because they are better and nobody wants to be anything but Ultramarines, because they are the bestest of the best end of story goodbye.

And there are players who took this literally, and just will not shut up about it.

I imagine that the lore says that about every factions. But, I've never encounter a Ultramarine player who says there better than every other legion lol.

And I also though that codex lore about chapter was written by a POV of the actual chapter. So Ultramarine would describe themself as the best of the best, while other chapter/legion don't make such claim. Salamanders are happy to be good craftmans and good in close quarter combat with flamer, while Imperial Fist would pride themself with their skill at enduring long lasting siege. Ultramarine are basicly saying that they won't stop until they are the best of the best. I mean, it's not because in the Grots entry of the codex (ficticious) they claim to be the smartest of the galaxy that it's actually true (well true in a sense that it's all a fictional world anyway lol).

Ward didn't invent Ultramarine sueism. It was always there. Read some of the codices prior to Ward's.

Selym,
We both know if the Ultramarines had to be rescued by another faction they would just blame the loss on that factions interference.

 PandaHero wrote:
I imagine that the lore says that about every factions. But, I've never encounter a Ultramarine player who says there better than every other legion lol.

And I also though that codex lore about chapter was written by a POV of the actual chapter. So Ultramarine would describe themself as the best of the best, while other chapter/legion don't make such claim. Salamanders are happy to be good craftmans and good in close quarter combat with flamer, while Imperial Fist would pride themself with their skill at enduring long lasting siege. Ultramarine are basicly saying that they won't stop until they are the best of the best. I mean, it's not because in the Grots entry of the codex (ficticious) they claim to be the smartest of the galaxy that it's actually true (well true in a sense that it's all a fictional world anyway lol).

The BA and GK codexes claimed that the BA and GK wanted to be UM, or at least, aspire to be more like them (following the codex etc). If that were the case, they wouldn't need separate codexes.
The BT written work has recently moved more towards being UM wannabes.

And I feel there are more, but I need to do some digging for that.

I've never encountered an UM player who wasn't a dick about the UM fluff. It's one of the reasons I hate them so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Selym,
We both know if the Ultramarines had to be rescued by another faction they would just blame the loss on that factions interference.

lol true

whoever asked for page number is an idiot.
just read the fith edition codex realease intervieiw with whit dwarf and it all becomes clear...

 hanshotfirst wrote:
whoever asked for page number is an idiot.
just read the fith edition codex realease intervieiw with whit dwarf and it all becomes clear...

It's not 5th edition anymore, that Codex is no longer current fluff, Matt Ward doesn't work for GW anymore, just stop already this meme was tired five years ago.

yes but read the 6th edition codex realese interview with robin crudface.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but read the 6th edition codex realese interview with robin crudface.

It's 7th edition now. 7th. I don't care what Robin Cruddace said or what Matt Ward said or what Andy Chambers said. Why must you belittle people's names like that? What are you, 12?

Since there is one, let's go by the 7E codex...

 j31c3n wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but read the 6th edition codex realese interview with robin crudface.

It's 7th edition now. 7th. I don't care what Robin Cruddace said or what Matt Ward said or what Andy Chambers said. Why must you belittle people's names like that? What are you, 12?

Try reading it. It is yet another bundle of "Ooohhh the Ultramarines are sooo good and they are perfect and never lose at anything and all the other marines want to be them and suck them off and have their love children"

Seriously. It is sickening.

Selym,
I don't know about GK or BT, but I though BA wanted to be more like UM (following the codex astarte) in order to see if it's help with the plague that is afflicting their chapter. aka being more by the book in order to control the anomaly. When I read their codex, it doesn't seem to me like they are UM wannabe because they think UM are better or whatever.

Let's look at some 7E C:SM highlights, shall we?

Cato Sicarius (Page 116): "Cato Sicarius is the undisputed master of the lightning assault" "He leads the 2nd company to victory as easily as he overcomes every other obstacle"

Librarian Tigurius (Page 117): "The Ultramarines' Chief Librarian is amongst the greatest psykers in the Imperium" "his merest hunch is often worth more than the predictions of a battalion of strategists"

Scout Sgt Telion (Page 119): "Telion's skills as a mentor are such that he can coax greatness from even the rawest recruit, guiding their aim and leading them to victory no matter the odds"

Everything about Calgar (Page 173)

Page 16, in reference to the UM special characters: "All of these names are synonymous with nobility, courage and glory"

Page 16, in reference to UM successors: "each one strives always to live up to the example of their genetic forebears"

Page 19, in reference to the Ultramar empire, itself an example: "Ultramarines rule so efficiently and are so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxillia regiments"

*takes a break to look at the BT fluff, where it reads: "Thus his chapter has ever been divergent from Guilliman's codex, a trait that has become more pronounced as the millennia have ground past".*

*realizes this was a disparaging comment, not a note of their style*

I haven't time to trawl through the codex word-by-word, but this should stoke the fires of argument for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 39: "but with each component of the strike force working in perfect concert, the Ultramarines were able to purge the world of its xenos invaders."

And they all lived happily ever after.

Almost every special character in the setting is described as the best at what they do. No one wants to take Captain Jimbo the Alright.

And what I read from all your quote (except maybe the firs one) is: I'm super good at what I do.

I mean... like exactly 10000% of all the lore of every character in the history of 40k. Would you play: Joe Blow the Insignificant, the guy who deliver milk successfully at least once in his life?

Actually... Yes.
When Joe the Blow successfully delivers that Milk on Turn 3, it would be far greater an achievement knowing he was over-coming something in order to do so!

Great, now I want to model Space Marines as milkmen.....

the problem with smurfs is that they are mary sues.

Well good news, the Imperial guard is recruiting! Step right uo and join the proud ranks of Joe Blow: The faction

games workshop also blatantly favors them.
they have OVER 9000 special characters
while the ironhands are still waiting for, you know... 1 character
and they say "all other space marines strive to be ultrasmurfs"

Ironhands are busy being emo and cutting themself apart. sorry

 Grey Templar wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
See the HH - Ultramarines are cool in 007M31.

I don't know. The HH books did a pretty good job of making them colossal donkey caves. So much that even Sicarus would have blushed.

Really? Have you read Know No Fear? I didn't get that impression in the slightest.

I think a lot of UM hatred is created by the community. We've gone two edition and five years since Ward, yet people still blame him.
UM, BA, DA, and SW have always been the main four, as admitted by Jervis Johnson before the codexes were even split. So why do people complain when UM get more than other codex adherants? They have always been regarded in a better light. If Iron Hands or Raven Guard had been chosen instead, would that have been better? No. It so happens that UM were chosen for that role.

They don't need an overwhelming flaw. Their flaw was that they were so reliant on the codex that when the Tyranids came (and subsequently, Necrons) they were caught unprepared by the newly found tactics and enemies. They show Character Development by breaking their own rules to adapt from their prideful ways. Not many other Chapters have shown character development in this way. Besides, isn't being seen as arrogant dicks a character flaw in it's own right, making them NOT mary sues?

In response to saying the UM need events that make them worthy of being a respected version, how about all the battles which are won (which people complain about, as the UM win), or the reduction of Chaos as a threat by reducing the size of Astartes force any Chapter Master can hold, thus lowering the risk of a Legion-sized threat ever occuring.

I don't claim the UM are the best. I claim that they are the most well-balanced Chapter, a figure by which other Chapters are judged by. After all, someone has to be vanilla, and it certainly isn't filled by any of the other First Founders. They quite literally are a jack of all trades for modern 40k, which isn't in any way bad for me. No overwhelming traits, no WolfyWolfWolf or BloodyBloodBlood or SUPASECRETSECRETS. (On the subject of the Wolves, they seem to show far more Mary Suedom than the Smurfs, yet aren't hated anywhere NEAR as much. I'd actually appreciate an actual response for this, I'm genuinely curious.)
I'm not really thinking straight right now, but I think this gets across my ideas.

Give them a logo that doesn't look like a toilet-seat.