Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 j31c3n wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I would like to say all sorts of derogatory things about people who put skin colour first, but admit that it probably is a concern for marketing because... those people still do exist.
Personally, I say feth them!

I agree 100% but that's just the sad fact. GW is an English company and in England there is not an awful lot of ethnic diversity, that's why the vast majority of human and Astartes characters in the fluff are, well, white.

Or assumed white. Some never really get specified.

And then you get the Tallarn:



Whiteboy Desert Raiders.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sure, people may dislike their by-the-book, paragon nature: fine. Those people can get their fill of Sue-ism from the Space Wolves, a rogueish, gregarious, loose and wild Chapter who are pretty much the polar opposites of the Smurfs. Both are Sues; it's just that Wolves are regarded as better because REASONS.

The reason is probably that younger players are kids/teens and most of us oldtimers work for a living. Rules suck, the boss sucks and not having enough free time sucks. Cheering on the Space Wolves is sticking it to The Man in a sort-of wish fulfillment. Ultramarines are just as boring as going to school or work and performing as well as you can.

 j31c3n wrote:
But they're got that whole 'skin black as pitch and eyes like two burning embers' thing going on. I love it, personally, but I can't see it selling models like the helmetless Ultramarine characters.

And a lot of people have issues regarding alleged racism because of that, and GW probably wouldn't want to kick up that storm.

This BTW is why I was put off collecting Salamanders when I first started, I didn't want to be accused of that stuff, it was bad enough when I thought I was tricked into buying racist paint.

Spetulhu wrote:
Ultramarines are just as boring as going to school or work and performing as well as you can.

Now I imagining Marneus Calgar on the battlefield behaving like Hank Hill. A single bolter shell discharges from the Gauntlets of Ultramar. Calgar turns to Sicarius and says, "Why would anyone turn to heresy when they could just purge the alien?" He looks so happy he could cry.

 j31c3n wrote:

I agree 100% but that's just the sad fact. GW is an English company and in England there is not an awful lot of ethnic diversity, that's why the vast majority of human and Astartes characters in the fluff are, well, white.

Actually it depends where you are and I speak from experience.

I like where this conversation is going...woohoo raise the roof!

 Selym wrote:
One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

They do have flaws, they're far too adherent to the Codex Astartes for example. The trouble is that the novels are never written that way. But that's a flaw of the authors. And they have as much variation as any of the other codex chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have more because they have their own model ranges, but tac marines and vehicles have as much variation whether they're painted as salamanders, or Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines. Ultramarines have heraldry and bling, look at the Honour Guard with Calgar, or the Suzerians that have just come out if we're counting the HH.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Selym wrote:
One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

They do have flaws, they're far too adherent to the Codex Astartes for example. The trouble is that the novels are never written that way. But that's a flaw of the authors. And they have as much variation as any of the other codex chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have more because they have their own model ranges, but tac marines and vehicles have as much variation whether they're painted as salamanders, or Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines. Ultramarines have heraldry and bling, look at the Honour Guard with Calgar, or the Suzerians that have just come out if we're counting the HH.

Being too adherent to the codex is a weird flaw. The Codex is purported to be the best tactical/strategic doctrine ever made, and is supposedly what makes the UM so good at everything. It's almost the same level of flaw as "They're too arrogant", or "they're a funny colour".

One of my pet peeves with UM is that stuff like Honour Guard, in spite of allegedly being available to every chapter are only available with Calgar and with big U's all over them. It makes it feel like, even though it says Codex: Space Marines on the cover, it is still just Codex: Ultramarines.

Honour Guard is really a very personal unit, making one for each chapter would be very difficult

Seriously though as far as good exemplars of what the space marines are supposed to be Salamanders and Crimson Fists are probably top two, both have been through serious harm and come out stronger and both have done a lot to try and save even the smallest bit of humanity

They should make a non-Chapter specific Honour Guard, but for now, Sternguard and Vanguard kits have so much detail and so many spare parts that people can make really good Honour Guard models without relying on the single box of UM honour guard. Hell, I added to my existing UM honour guard this way because I didn't want to see duplicate models! Plus, the forge world stuff is pretty awesome looking.

SM are meant to be super macho, uncaring post-humans. I'm not sure kids like their supermen to care about the little guys, just the killing of gribbly aliens. But Salamanders would be an interesting poster boy, until they start becoming hated for the same reasons UM are.

As for being codex-adherant, it is a fairly big flaw when you consider that it severely limits the adaptation of combat tactics to face new xenos. Plus, it shows how far the UM have bastardised Guilliman's intention for the Codex to NOT be a replacement to personal thinking! Just because their flaw isn't whacked over your head so often doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Besides, if we're looking for flaws, what flaw do the Fists have? Very stubborn? Brilliant at sieges and protracted conflict.
Wolves? Incompatible geneseed? Oversized chapter.
Blood Angels? Mental instability? Superpowered Marines.

Many Chapter's flaws are also their greatest strengths. This is the same with the UM.

GAdvance wrote:
Honour Guard is really a very personal unit, making one for each chapter would be very difficult

Seriously though as far as good exemplars of what the space marines are supposed to be Salamanders and Crimson Fists are probably top two, both have been through serious harm and come out stronger and both have done a lot to try and save even the smallest bit of humanity

And then you get the Templars, who get lumped in with the rest despite not having second thoughts about killing off whole regiments of IG, just because they got in the way of the crusade


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But Salamanders would be an interesting poster boy, until they start becoming hated for the same reasons UM are.

Make all marines the GW poster boy. On one thing, the Salamanders, on the next the Templars, the next the Crimson Fists, the next...
Have all the notable chapters on some sort of rotary basis. C:SM is not just about one chapter, it's about hundreds of chapters.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Besides, if we're looking for flaws, what flaw do the Fists have? Very stubborn? Brilliant at sieges and protracted conflict.
Stubborn is a plus. Flaw: Overly competitive, don't know when they've gone too far. Liable to get others killed just because they couldn't stand the thought of pulling out.

Wolves? Incompatible geneseed? Oversized chapter.
Furries. Erm... You got me there. Ooh! Some of them get turned into actual wolves, which then... get ridden on in battle... *facepalm*

Blood Angels? Mental instability? Superpowered Marines.
Spehs Vampires. I hate them as much as the Ultras, but for different reasons. You forgot: Pretty boys, bestest at melee. Have fast HS vehicles for no reason.

Many Chapter's flaws are also their greatest strengths.
Superhumans are too easy to turn into mary sues, but some manage not to.

This is the same moreso with the UM.

I really wish GW would produce upgrade kits for other chapters. That would solve the whole Honor Guard issue for me. The Crimson Fists finecast upgrade kits don't really take care of the problem. Never mind the fact other chapters are left out in the rain. I made my current Honor Guard using a combination of Sterguard and Vanguard bits, but they still aren't as cool looking as the UM HG. And if a UM player wants to make a custom HG, they can use that sweet new Upgrade Kit as a basis.

 Selym wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Besides, if we're looking for flaws, what flaw do the Fists have? Very stubborn? Brilliant at sieges and protracted conflict.
Stubborn is a plus. Flaw: Overly competitive, don't know when they've gone too far. Liable to get others killed just because they couldn't stand the thought of pulling out.So, stubbornness. Too stubborn to give up.

Wolves? Incompatible geneseed? Oversized chapter.
Furries Okay, you got me there.
Erm... You got me there. Ooh! Some of them get turned into actual wolves, which then... get ridden on in battle... *facepalm*[/color]
Wait, Thunderwolves ARE ex-Space Wolves? Hang on, I gotta see this! Still, as a plus, Space Wolves then get mounts?

Blood Angels? Mental instability? Superpowered Marines.
Spehs Vampires. I hate them as much as the Ultras, but for different reasons. You forgot: Pretty boys, bestest at melee. Have fast HS vehicles for no reason.
Yeah, can't really add to that...

Many Chapter's flaws are also their greatest strengths.
Superhumans are too easy to turn into mary sues, but some manage not to.As a general statement, Space Marines are Mary Sues. Just some are less Mary Sue than others.

This is the same moreso with the UM.I don't know, they don't have a crippling flaw, but it is still fairly significant, especially if GW advanced their storyline and involved some issues between What Guilliman intended vs What the UM are now, or facing another new enemy which would throw the Codex out of the window for them?

Regarding Codex vs Guilliman:

GW will never let that happen. The codex tends to be written like it covers all possibilities, unless a non-adherent chapter comments on it.

salamanders would be a nice face of the army. i dont think there skin color would make much of a differnece (exept for douchbags)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
they should make a generic honour gaurd kit and make moar upgrade packs so you could buy you honour gaurd and then buy you upgrade pack for specific chapter

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

And a lot of people have issues regarding alleged racism because of that, and GW probably wouldn't want to kick up that storm.

This BTW is why I was put off collecting Salamanders when I first started, I didn't want to be accused of that stuff, it was bad enough when I thought I was tricked into buying racist paint.

Normally I would agree. Regardless of actual effects on sales, kicking the hornet's nest of identity politics is almost invariably a PR nightmare. This, however, is one of those few occasions when GW's abject refusal to perform market interaction is beneficial. If they won't listen to their fanbase, they aren't going to pay heed to a mob of screeching offendatrons, especially when this latter group is made up primarily of those who don't consume their products.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
But they're got that whole 'skin black as pitch and eyes like two burning embers' thing going on. I love it, personally, but I can't see it selling models like the helmetless Ultramarine characters.

And a lot of people have issues regarding alleged racism because of that, and GW probably wouldn't want to kick up that storm.

This BTW is why I was put off collecting Salamanders when I first started, I didn't want to be accused of that stuff, it was bad enough when I thought I was tricked into buying racist paint.

Meh forget them if they accuse you, I paint my Salamanders to be African American 1. for Ethnic diversity and 2. It is hilarious for My Opponent and I to see a army of Black guys with flamethrowers fight aliens.

Now now, they are native to Nocturne and not African Americans.

Joking aside, I really don't understand the why painting your Models something other then your own skin tone would indicates racism. From my understanding of people who believe that skin-tone is a mark of worth, it would seem as if the exact opposite would be a better measuring stick. When faced with a Chapter that has Narrative reasoning for such a dark skin tone, and only those tones, these would be the players who paint them as Caucasians or simply out-right refuse to even admit they exist. Those players fielding an army with any deviation from their own skin-tones are, more likely, to be the exact opposite of racists. Of course, they could be making fun of stereotypes by blowing them right out of proportion for a laugh, and ... I'm actually fine with that, laughter is a universal language capable of bringing even enemies together.

PS:
Just noticed your from my home country and have to ask - What do you think about the recent KFC advertisements?

Dont think I have seen them...are they stereotyping?

Yes, and I honestly do not know how to feel about it in this case:
As the great George Carlin pointed out, and many comedians before and since, you can make fun of anything... as long as you blow it so far out of proportion it is impossible to take seriously. Take your icon for example, the god rays and the 'I'm going to get me some of that' posture adds an over-the-top element that does cause a slight giggle. Sure you might feel a little bad afterwards for having giggled at a stereotype, but there was a moment where you needed to face-palm as you did find some sort of humour within it. That makes it impossible to look at your icon and take it as a serious racist statement... it is clearly a jest.

Worse: If you imagine that bucket as one of the long lost relics trying to be recovered, to be placed on a pedestal where all the people of Nocturne can be awestruck by it, it takes an even deeper level of comedy... yes, I am a bad person.

The KFC advertisement failed big time in that one regard; they where so subtle that I wonder if they even knew they where living up to a stereotype, let alone making fun of one. It feels as if they blundered into the whole 'is it Racism' question by pure accident, it was not over-the-top enough for me to find something funny within and I laughed at your icon. Almost as if someone in the marketing firm thought making everyone of African decent while playing loud Caribbean music was the only way to show that they where West-Indies fans. They where so focused on the "bringing fan's from two opposing sport teams together" element that they didn't even realize what they where doing....

Oh well, back on topic:
So how about those Salamanders?

 Selym wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Selym wrote:
One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

They do have flaws, they're far too adherent to the Codex Astartes for example. The trouble is that the novels are never written that way. But that's a flaw of the authors. And they have as much variation as any of the other codex chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have more because they have their own model ranges, but tac marines and vehicles have as much variation whether they're painted as salamanders, or Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines. Ultramarines have heraldry and bling, look at the Honour Guard with Calgar, or the Suzerians that have just come out if we're counting the HH.

Being too adherent to the codex is a weird flaw. The Codex is purported to be the best tactical/strategic doctrine ever made, and is supposedly what makes the UM so good at everything. It's almost the same level of flaw as "They're too arrogant", or "they're a funny colour".

It's not. The Codex is the best tactical doctrine ever made, but Guilliman only ever intended for it to be guidelines. The UM now treat it like gospel, which makes them more inflexible than chapters who know when to stop following it. So the flaw really is relative inflexibility.

 Selym wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:
And what I read from all your quote (except maybe the firs one) is: I'm super good at what I do.

I mean... like exactly 10000% of all the lore of every character in the history of 40k. Would you play: Joe Blow the Insignificant, the guy who deliver milk successfully at least once in his life?

Joe the Insignificant is the premise of the entire IG army.

I though that books/lore of IG were more focus on either great general or the campaign itself, where SM in general are more character centric, people self-accomplishment is important in a SM force. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Joe Blow example I used was to express that no one would read a full SM books that talk about someone being a nobody. You either have books about great people, or great deeds. It would be very strange to read a SM books where Chapter X is like: Man.. we ain't good at doing stuff...

I'd read the gak out of that.

Ok... so maybe not "no one". But it wouldn't be a hit. If Dakka all tell me it would, well I guess I should be sitting at my desk writting a book.

Make a poll called: "Would you read a story about Space Marines who fail constantly?"

Word that way, I'm sure people would read it. Because it would be a comedy.

To reflect what I was trying to get accross, the poll should be: Would you read a story about an uniteresting Space Marines Chapter who achieve nothing, and aren't particularly good at what they do?

Not sure if its been said but how about stop painting and displaying every single space marine unit in ultramarine colours on the games workshop web store.....seriously it makes their colour scheme seem incredibly bland and suggests that ultramarines are common and cheap space marines.

What a difference and sigh of relief it is when you spot even just one marine unit in different colours on the website.... just take the spot light off ultras ffs!

@Panda:
Yes. Get it published by BL, so that I can call it cannon.

I would quote it on a daily basis.

 Ustis wrote:
Not sure if its been said but how about stop painting and displaying every single space marine unit in ultramarine colours on the games workshop web store.....seriously it makes their colour scheme seem incredibly bland and suggests that ultramarines are common and cheap space marines.

What a difference and sigh of relief it is when you spot even just one marine unit in different colours on the website.... just take the spot light off ultras ffs!

The ideal outcome in my opinion would be to use a variety of chapters for the unit photographs. Tactical Squads could remain Ultramarines. Predators would be painted as Iron Hands, and the Rhino as Ultramarines again. Imperial Fists would work well for Centurions and Vindicators. Salamanders could work for the Salamanders. Raven Guard for assault/jump units. Bike units as White Scars. Black Templars as their unique units.

As I'm sure you've guessed, units that fit best with that Chapter's theme would be painted in the corresponding colors. This list is far from complete, and I'm sure refinement could be done.