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A thought struck me as I was checking the American Team Chmapionship lists today. I was wondering for myself what could defeat such lists as those we have seen in the top 20s of that Tournament? And so I was wasting my time mixing and matching units to go with my quite un-cometetive Raven Guard Chapter Tactics (but ended up somewhere completely different!). Because I had to deal with Everything (Daemons, Necrons Eldar etc.) I had thought of using 3 Thunderfire Cannons in a couple of units along with quite a few Sniper Scouts and a Librarius Conclave spread across them all to weather down the storm of 3+ WraithKnights and hordes of Jetbikes or 2-3 Drop Podding Centurions as well as 3+ Knights, MC's, Daemon hordes, Riptides and whatnot, when it suddenly struck me that I could put the entire Librarius Conclave into one 3 Thunderfire Cannon unit for hilarity. Oh...!

Damn...!

Let me run this down for you just so we know we're on the same page here. Check this out:

3 Thunderfire Cannons [300 pts]
1 Librarius Conclave - Tigurius (Warlord), 2x Lvl 2 Librarian w/ Termie Armor and Meltabombs, Force Weapon & Stormshield [425 pts]
1 Ordo Xeno Inquisitor lvl 1 w/ Psychostroke Grenades, Tome of Vethric & 3 Servo Skulls [99 pts]

Optional:
- Coteaz for the 12" Intercept and/or a Master Crafted Nemesis Daemon Hammer [100 pts]
- Chapter Master fully kitted out and on Bike! [~ 220 - 260 pts]
- Techmarines fully kitted out and on Bikes! [~ 100 - 150 pts]
- More Librarians fully kitted out and on Bikes! [~ 110 - 150 pts]
- Hell throw in some Conversion Beamers on your extra Techmarines and go to town.
- Use this unit to jump around the board Draigo-style. Ha, ha!

Just the basics at the top will give you:

- 3x T7 2W 3+ save models that have Split Fire against Eldar thanks to the Tome of Vethric, Rending thanks to Tigurius' Storm of Fire Warlord Trait and an inherrent Ignores Cover profile.
- 3x T4 2W 2+ save models with 3 Str8, AP1, I1 attacks base. 3 flamers and 3 TL Plasma Cutters (of which one can be fired in addition to the Thunderfire Cannons. Good for Overwatch, too, actually.
- 2x T4 2W 2+ 3++ save models with 3 Force Weapon attacks (take your pick)
- 1x T4 3W 3+ model with 3 Force Staff attacks who can give the entire unit rending through his Storm of Fire Warlord Trait.
- 1x T3 3W 4+ model with 3 Force Sword attacks, Psych-out Grenades (I1 for psychers and Daemons who are assaulted by this unit), Psychostroke Grenades (opponents suffer effects on a D6 such as only 1 attack or auto hit against units in combat. Awesome against daemons).

That is a unit with 12 BS6 Str6 Rending small blasts at 60", with Split Fire against Eldar and the option to go Str5 Ignore cover as well! Not to mention that you have T7 probably a 3+ Cover Save (2+ with Night Fighting or Raven Guard) and Invisibility, Eternal Warrior w/ 4+ Feel no Pain (3+ with Iron Hands) and Relentless, Gate of Infinity/Levitation, Psychic Shriek or perhaps all of them at once! In CC you have 9 Str8 Ap1 attacks, 12 Force Weapon instakill-attacks and to top it off: your opponent might only have 1 attack, might be I1 or might even hit his own unit due to Psychostroke Grenades. Lol!

Part of the awesome part is that it just murders Daemon hordes and Eldar jetbikes and can take out AV13+ armor by hitting on side armor or using rending. It can also snipe characters such as Heralds from their units. Don't forget you'll also have an awesome psychic-phase to boot! I guess you'd just need something to handle Wraithknights and/Knights with a little more gusto than this unit does. But still, is this awesome, hilarious, or just crazy dumb? Or plain stupid? I don't know yet, but I know I want to try it! Just thought I'd throw it out there.

All of that will cost you 824 pts.

So, the cost isn't too bad, and could be cheaper considering you really don't need terminator armor on the librarians as you'll be gunning for invisibility like EVERY deathstar (other than some Daemonic ones).

However, you've got a couple of problems:

1) I'm not following you when you say you have split-fire. What am I missing? How are you acquiring that?

2) Kitted as you are, you're majority T4.

3) Artillery units (with guns) cannot charge; so, there's that. Now, you could split characters off in the movement phase and charge with them, but you lose a lot of tactical flexibility there.

4) Techmarines and Librarians are "pretty good" in close combat. But any dedicated CC deathstar, the types that are highly mobile and very popular, will curb stomp you.

Anyway, it's cool that you're thinking outside the box, but TFCs are just fine on their own, I don't think it's worth the star treatment.

 Corvus_corax wrote:
All of that will cost you 824 pts.

9 Thunderfire cannons?

Razerous wrote:

 Corvus_corax wrote:
All of that will cost you 824 pts.

9 Thunderfire cannons?

That would be more effective; albeit overkill.

N-no, that's silly! *cough*

This is so much more fun and versatile. Almost twice as effective at killing jetbikes, and awesome in close combat! Besides these Thunderfire Cannons have Rending and a Librarius Conclave. I would much rather take these against a Daemonic list for instance. Come on, help me out here. :p

You just need the 3 TFC's and either Telion or Tiggy for auto Storm of Iron. I would go with Telion. Storm of Iron gives the cannons rending, but the Warlord needs to be within 12" to make it work. At bare minimum of 3 cannons and Telion all you have invested is 350pts. You will have a ton of points left over to present more diverse, mobile and immediate threats to the enemy. Meanwhile the 350pts of Telion and 3 cannons will decimate a target at a time

 The Shrike wrote:
So, the cost isn't too bad, and could be cheaper considering you really don't need terminator armor on the librarians as you'll be gunning for invisibility like EVERY deathstar (other than some Daemonic ones).

However, you've got a couple of problems:

1) I'm not following you when you say you have split-fire. What am I missing? How are you acquiring that?

2) Kitted as you are, you're majority T4.

3) Artillery units (with guns) cannot charge; so, there's that. Now, you could split characters off in the movement phase and charge with them, but you lose a lot of tactical flexibility there.

4) Techmarines and Librarians are "pretty good" in close combat. But any dedicated CC deathstar, the types that are highly mobile and very popular, will curb stomp you.

Anyway, it's cool that you're thinking outside the box, but TFCs are just fine on their own, I don't think it's worth the star treatment.

Tome of Vethic gives you a different USR for each Xenos faction in your opponents army. Against Eldar, you gain Split Fire. Also, shooting at artillery units is always resolved against T7 while a gun is alive so he's ok there.

I agree with you and Darth Diggler though. 3 TFCs supported by a Storm of Fire warlord and maybe the Xenos inquisitor is enough.

Grav would eat this alive.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Grav would eat this alive.

Well, like so many Deathstars, he needs invisibility.

 The Shrike wrote:
So, the cost isn't too bad, and could be cheaper considering you really don't need terminator armor on the librarians as you'll be gunning for invisibility like EVERY deathstar (other than some Daemonic ones).

However, you've got a couple of problems:

1) I'm not following you when you say you have split-fire. What am I missing? How are you acquiring that?

2) Kitted as you are, you're majority T4.

3) Artillery units (with guns) cannot charge; so, there's that. Now, you could split characters off in the movement phase and charge with them, but you lose a lot of tactical flexibility there.

4) Techmarines and Librarians are "pretty good" in close combat. But any dedicated CC deathstar, the types that are highly mobile and very popular, will curb stomp you.

Anyway, it's cool that you're thinking outside the box, but TFCs are just fine on their own, I don't think it's worth the star treatment.

I wasn't really gunning for anything, just listing out my options. What really seemed good to me was getting Endurance on the Biomancy table and going for Sanctic Daemonology Powers with another for a 1D6 cast with a 2+ manifestation on most powers there, thus negating the risk of Psychic tests. Anyway, I was just sharing an idea that was mallable and could be changed at will because I thought it sounded nice. I would like to refer to rule #2 in your signature.

To answer some of your questions:
1 & 2. I believe PanzerLeader's answer is enough.
3. Well, I can always leave the guns for a round of fighting. I won't exactly be bogged down by anything other than another deathstar/Gargantuan and in that case it's fine.
4. Perhaps I am ignorant, please explain. I don't see how a unit with so many wounds, power weapons, power "fists", invulnerable saves, and psychic goodies is going to be curbed by another unit. The culexus Assassin is one thing, but daemons and other psychers are I1, and will have some other nasty effect turn 1. So a Seerstar among others doesn't really worry me either. What am I missing?

@Dirty Deeds:
I still have 1000 points to go for a full army and if your dropping 3x 3 Centurions on turn 1 they will only do 4,8 wounds on my unit with a 2+ Cover save. Remember Techmarines can increase a terrain pieces cover save.And besides, that's only if you go first and I don't have Invisibility or a 4++ Feel no Pain (3++ with Iron hands) due to Endurance. So my Inquisitor and one other model dies, and you've spent your alfra strike. I'm not convinced. I play Grav-Cannons and they do little to units in more than 3+ Cover.

And why would you pit this list against Grav Centurion Drop in an ATC/ETC anyway? This is primarily against Eldar and Daemons. If they play Grav-drop against me then that's what happens but I still have 1000 points I could use to protect myself against this if it were a tournament list.

I'm not saying this is an awesome deathstar, but I feel you're not seeing the pro's, only the cons.

 Corvus_corax wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
So, the cost isn't too bad, and could be cheaper considering you really don't need terminator armor on the librarians as you'll be gunning for invisibility like EVERY deathstar (other than some Daemonic ones).

However, you've got a couple of problems:

1) I'm not following you when you say you have split-fire. What am I missing? How are you acquiring that?

2) Kitted as you are, you're majority T4.

3) Artillery units (with guns) cannot charge; so, there's that. Now, you could split characters off in the movement phase and charge with them, but you lose a lot of tactical flexibility there.

4) Techmarines and Librarians are "pretty good" in close combat. But any dedicated CC deathstar, the types that are highly mobile and very popular, will curb stomp you.

Anyway, it's cool that you're thinking outside the box, but TFCs are just fine on their own, I don't think it's worth the star treatment.

I wasn't really gunning for anything, just listing out my options. What really seemed good to me was getting Endurance on the Biomancy table and going for Sanctic Daemonology Powers with another for a 1D6 cast with a 2+ manifestation on most powers there, thus negating the risk of Psychic tests. Anyway, I was just sharing an idea that was mallable and could be changed at will because I thought it sounded nice. I would like to refer to rule #2 in your signature.

To answer some of your questions:
1 & 2. I believe PanzerLeader's answer is enough.
3. Well, I can always leave the guns for a round of fighting. I won't exactly be bogged down by anything other than another deathstar/Gargantuan and in that case it's fine.
4. Perhaps I am ignorant, please explain. I don't see how a unit with so many wounds, power weapons, power "fists", invulnerable saves, and psychic goodies is going to be curbed by another unit. The culexus Assassin is one thing, but daemons and other psychers are I1, and will have some other nasty effect turn 1. So a Seerstar among others doesn't really worry me either. What am I missing?

@Dirty Deeds:
I still have 1000 points to go for a full army and if your dropping 3x 3 Centurions on turn 1 they will only do 4,8 wounds on my unit with a 2+ Cover save. Remember Techmarines can increase a terrain pieces cover save.And besides, that's only if you go first and I don't have Invisibility or a 4++ Feel no Pain (3++ with Iron hands) due to Endurance. So my Inquisitor and one other model dies, and you've spent your alfra strike. I'm not convinced. I play Grav-Cannons and they do little to units in more than 3+ Cover.

And why would you pit this list against Grav Centurion Drop in an ATC/ETC anyway? This is primarily against Eldar and Daemons. If they play Grav-drop against me then that's what happens but I still have 1000 points I could use to protect myself against this if it were a tournament list.

I'm not saying this is an awesome deathstar, but I feel you're not seeing the pro's, only the cons.

Hey man! Not trying to burst your bubble; just tryin' to help. You know where I stand at the end of the day from the sig.

I'm fully on board with just sticking Telion in a unit of 2-3. Think adding rending to TFCs is awesome. Anyway, to answer your CC Deathstar question, you have two separate and equal problems. Units like Wolfstars and scythe-bearing Lychstar will actually kill you quickly outright; often before you get to strike (if you don't have invis up). The greater threat is being tarpitted by non-Deathstars like Wraiths or Screamers. You won't be able to kill them fast enough and you don't have a source of Hit and Run.

Bottom line, I think this would be hilarious to see, I just think it's overkill. TFCs are great on their own, and adding Telion is plenty dirty. The Librarius Conclave is great too, but adding them to Cents like everyone is, imho, would be more effective. And you can do it in conjunction with TFC spam.

I came up with something recently that was almost exactly the same, but had 3 quad bolters instead of thunderfire cannons. It had Loth in there too to grant endurance for ability to move and shoot.
Basically 3 QBs, Loth, Tiggy and 2 lvl2 librarians (the last 3 in a conclave). Loth picks Endurance, leech life and enfeeble, whilst Tiggy rolls on divination for perfect timing and other buffing/debuffing spells, and if Tiggy gets PT the other 2 roll on telepathy, maybe getting invis and/or shrouded. Also have smite, prescience and psychic shriek in there.
A lot cheaper than TFCs or centstars with librarius conclave.

One thing worth noting is that artillery crew automatically become T7. So your majority toughness is T7 with both yours and mine NOT T4.
That meant even without invis or shrouding the unit becomes 19 T7 3+ wounds tanked by 2 T7 2++ wounds all with a 4+ fnp and relentless due to endurance and regain a wound a turn due to leech life. 5 characters with force weapons.

Some people on here couldn't see the advantage of 18 twinlinked rending cover-ignoring heavy bolter shots shooting at units with -1T as well as psychic shriek, leech life and smite, on top of the unit granting buffs and debuffs to other units around them on 2+ casting for dirt cheap... so you may get people coming on here to tell you it is useless without giving any constructive feedback. There are plenty (such as above) that are constructive with their feedback however.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I came up with something recently that was almost exactly the same, but had 3 quad bolters instead of thunderfire cannons. It had Loth in there too to grant endurance for ability to move and shoot.
Basically 3 QBs, Loth, Tiggy and 2 lvl2 librarians (the last 3 in a conclave). Loth picks Endurance, leech life and enfeeble, whilst Tiggy rolls on divination for perfect timing and other buffing/debuffing spells, and if Tiggy gets PT the other 2 roll on telepathy, maybe getting invis and/or shrouded. Also have smite, prescience and psychic shriek in there.
A lot cheaper than TFCs or centstars with librarius conclave.

One thing worth noting is that artillery crew automatically become T7. So your majority toughness is T7 with both yours and mine NOT T4.
That meant even without invis or shrouding the unit becomes 19 T7 3+ wounds tanked by 2 T7 2++ wounds all with a 4+ fnp and relentless due to endurance and regain a wound a turn due to leech life. 5 characters with force weapons.

Some people on here couldn't see the advantage of 18 twinlinked rending cover-ignoring heavy bolter shots shooting at units with -1T as well as psychic shriek, leech life and smite, on top of the unit granting buffs and debuffs to other units around them on 2+ casting for dirt cheap... so you may get people coming on here to tell you it is useless without giving any constructive feedback. There are plenty (such as above) that are constructive with their feedback however.

Maybe its because I primarily play MSU builds, but I still don't think the heavy bolter artillery build is worth it without a source of split fire. Find a way to get split fire in there on a reliable basis and I think you're on to something.

Split fire would indeed make it much better when playing against MSU builds but apart from the inquisition tome against eldar, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. May have to check out the Badab Character PDF at some point to see if anybody (that's reasonably cheap) has split fire.

The Inquisitional Relic Liber Heresius will give you Split Fire on a Ld test, but is one use only. Can also give the unit Scout, Hatred and Counter Attack USR's for a turn on a Ld test. 15 pts.

A local player has a similar setup.

Albeit he has the above unit with 2 thunderfires, and a squadron of 3 predators.

Yes, predators. The Autocannon + heavy bolter version in a squadron with monster hunter/tank hunter becomes awesome with rending.