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Since scatterbikes are a thing now, I was wondering if a "Light Scatterlaser" specific to the jetbikes might be more points appropriate?

Proposed profile would be S5 AP6 Heavy 3, 36" range. Thoughts?

honestly the best fix would be to limit the number of scatterlasers per bike unit .... 2-3 per unit would make them alot more balanced

Was just thinking of a "light touch" solution. Would better differentiate scatters from shuricannons. Going too heavy on it would just make double shuricannon vypers look more tempting (imo).

It's not a bad idea Cytharai, but if you're going to modify something about scatter bikes, you might as well just make their heavy weapons one per three like they used to be. One weapon out of three bikes means you're paying a pretty hefty tax if you want to get a bunch of heavy weapons on bikes. Which is good.

Guardian bikes were annoyingly good in the last book before they could spam heavy weapons. Now they're generally agreed to be meta-alteringly overpowered compared to other options.

My preferred fix:
*Make heavy weapons a 1 per 3 thing.
*Up the cost per model to the 4th edition cost (about 20 points iirc) to reflect the fact that they gained bladestorm, hammer of wrath, and jink from the 4th edition book.
*Maaaaaybe let them take other special weapons in place of the current heavy weapons. Fusion guns for instance. Though that steps on storm guardian toes.

Honestly, a year ago, I would absolutely agree with 1 in 3 heavy weapons on bikes. But the fact that you have things like Ravenwing toting around a bunch of twin linked plasma, and SM bikers not being limited on special weapons (that I know of... not sure how up to date the Battlescribe file is for the new codex), seems kinda silly that Eldar would have limited special weapons.

Also as an aside - I think it's pretty silly that Windriders in the troops slot are able to pack that much firepower. Maybe if they were in another slot... but troops?

Sounds reasonable.

Cytharai wrote:Since scatterbikes are a thing now, I was wondering if a "Light Scatterlaser" specific to the jetbikes might be more points appropriate?

Proposed profile would be S5 AP6 Heavy 3, 36" range. Thoughts?

S5 scatterlasers generally are kind of an ok idea. I don't like having "light" or "tank" or "marine" versions of things; some of the new models with variant autocannons seem like bad ideas. You could consider doing it just across the board.

You do see a lot less utility from that though, especially on defender platforms, except it's not like defenders are common anyway. Me, I'm pretty receptive to s5, but also to s6. Heavy 4 is kinda important for eldar, otherwise it's just an imperial gun. On jetbikes, you have a case because it's pretty powerful to have individual troops models with that kind of heavy weapon, especially compared to Imperials. However, you get back to that variant guns thing. I really like that 40k is on a scale where all patterns of a weapon are the same.

Wyldhunt wrote:It's not a bad idea Cytharai, but if you're going to modify something about scatter bikes, you might as well just make their heavy weapons one per three like they used to be. One weapon out of three bikes means you're paying a pretty hefty tax if you want to get a bunch of heavy weapons on bikes. Which is good.

I think it is not so good. Upgrades at 1 per x models is not a universal convention, and conventions on that kind of thing would be bad. Eldar don't have veteran sergeants and special/heavy tactical squads of aspect warriors. Eldar using ablative guys is pretty crappy, and I think even from a gaming, non-fluff perspective, it makes sense for them to have unlimited upgrades. It obviously plays extremely differently to have scatbikes arrogantly wipe out a unit and JSJ or jink to avoid all retaliation than it plays to have 1 per 3 plinking away a little bit and having to focus fire with five other combined arms units. I'm not sorry that I'd like to play against Eldar jetbikes than Imperial-Eldar jetbikes with limited weapons.

If you want to talk about something like 35 points for a scatbike, or forcing more purchases into the wind rider host, then maybe sure.

My main thought is that infantry are pretty garbage, and it's more interesting to put some buffs on infantry so that it's easier to counter jetbikes with guardsmen, marines, boyz, etcetera, and so that guardian hosts and dire avenger CADs are not as obviously worse than scatbikes.

Guardian bikes were annoyingly good in the last book before they could spam heavy weapons. Now they're generally agreed to be meta-alteringly overpowered compared to other options.

My preferred fix:
*Make heavy weapons a 1 per 3 thing.
*Up the cost per model to the 4th edition cost (about 20 points iirc) to reflect the fact that they gained bladestorm, hammer of wrath, and jink from the 4th edition book.
*Maaaaaybe let them take other special weapons in place of the current heavy weapons. Fusion guns for instance. Though that steps on storm guardian toes.

My preferred fix:
Infantry get buffs, jetbikes don't.

Cytharai wrote:Honestly, a year ago, I would absolutely agree with 1 in 3 heavy weapons on bikes. But the fact that you have things like Ravenwing toting around a bunch of twin linked plasma, and SM bikers not being limited on special weapons (that I know of... not sure how up to date the Battlescribe file is for the new codex), seems kinda silly that Eldar would have limited special weapons.

Also as an aside - I think it's pretty silly that Windriders in the troops slot are able to pack that much firepower. Maybe if they were in another slot... but troops?

Marine bikers get two special weapons. They start in squads of three, with a one-shot special weapon buy-able for the the sergeant. Extra models don't get them though. There are HQ squads that can get more, too.


I think windriders are perfect for troops, and bad anywhere else. Their battlefield role is to take up space. I don't think it is important that troops be infantry or non-jump and non-bulky.

How's:
-WindRiders 20ppm
-Scatter Laser as now, +15ppm
?

I'd go for that, but leave shuriken cannons at 10 points. Now there's a real choice, instead of "scatter lasers are just better, unless you're mostly fighting MCs, where Bladestorm helps a lot".

Yeah, I think that's one of the big problems. Scatter lasers being better in almost all situations. It's like (most) SM squads. Do I want more melta or more grav... who cares about all the other heavy weapon options.

pelicaniforce wrote:
S5 scatterlasers generally are kind of an ok idea. I don't like having "light" or "tank" or "marine" versions of things; some of the new models with variant autocannons seem like bad ideas. You could consider doing it just across the board.

Yeah not a fan of the name either lol, was just trying tone down the jetbike scatter lasers (which are the main offender) and leave the scatters which would be on tanks or other heavy stuff as-is.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Marine bikers get two special weapons. They start in squads of three, with a one-shot special weapon buy-able for the the sergeant. Extra models don't get them though. There are HQ squads that can get more, too.

Ahh ok, explains the squads of 3 all the time for the normal bikes.

Can my Orks get an upgrade similar to this? Maybe....Gitfindas that work on the move? Or maybe make our weapons S6

Wouldn't the nerf to Scatter Bikers be an indirect buff to Orks?

I had toyed around with the idea of bikes no longer giving +1T. For the most part, it would be awesome. Wind riders, SM bikes, Nurgle Bikers, etc. But it would bone Orks hard.

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't the nerf to Scatter Bikers be an indirect buff to Orks?

I had toyed around with the idea of bikes no longer giving +1T. For the most part, it would be awesome. Wind riders, SM bikes, Nurgle Bikers, etc. But it would bone Orks hard.

Not my T5 Tomb Blades! Nooooooooo!

Tomb blades are something I'm not as familiar with.

Should I start a new what-if thread? I'd like to know more about Tomb Blades and what Ghaz thinks about Orks (perhaps they retain it? Perhaps their bikes add an armor save? Not really sure...) I don't want to clog this thread, though.

On topic, last time I allied with a CWE player locally (I was fielding a Masque, but I don't own any Wkndriders anyways, actually), I noticed he went one-in-three willingly, and it seemed right. (He also stipulated that he'd only get to WarpJump once a phase, and his WraithFlamers were s4 too, which seemed to work for everyone).

That said, I think people have a point about options being good, and that they should just pay the points.

I don't mind +1T bikers. It's a little nasty for SM/CSM, but Orks, DE, Harlequins get a lot out of it, and even CWE and Necrons are reasonable on those grounds.

Now, I've considered the idea that armor saves on bikes should be reworked, though. 3+ for Marines, sure, because they have power armor anyway, and 3+ for Shining Spears because they have heavy aspect armor, and 3+ for Tomb Blades because they're pretty much Immortals on bikes. But Windriders and Reavers should both be 4+, and Ork Bikers wouldn't exactly be OP if they had 4+, too.

Farseers and Warlocks? Well... Give them a 6+, since they have no armor save normally and a 4++ from their rune armor. Autarchs? Really, would anyone object overmuch to Autarchs having a 2+? No worse than a Captain in Artificer Armor on a bike (2+/4++), and those are everywhere...

jade_angel wrote:
I don't mind +1T bikers. It's a little nasty for SM/CSM, but Orks, DE, Harlequins get a lot out of it, and even CWE and Necrons are reasonable on those grounds.

Now, I've considered the idea that armor saves on bikes should be reworked, though. 3+ for Marines, sure, because they have power armor anyway, and 3+ for Shining Spears because they have heavy aspect armor, and 3+ for Tomb Blades because they're pretty much Immortals on bikes. But Windriders and Reavers should both be 4+, and Ork Bikers wouldn't exactly be OP if they had 4+, too.

Farseers and Warlocks? Well... Give them a 6+, since they have no armor save normally and a 4++ from their rune armor. Autarchs? Really, would anyone object overmuch to Autarchs having a 2+? No worse than a Captain in Artificer Armor on a bike (2+/4++), and those are everywhere...

Ork bikers already have 4+ armor, the problem orks have is that the only good armor they can have is 4+ (except HQ's and Meganobz) And their is WAY to much AP4 in this game to make the armor worth a damn.

Considering Eldar haven't binked or placed in any major tournaments I would change nothing about their book. They are good but not the strongest Codex out. Two Imperial codices are better

Wouldn't the nerf to Scatter Bikers be an indirect buff to Orks?

I had toyed around with the idea of bikes no longer giving +1T. For the most part, it would be awesome. Wind riders, SM bikes, Nurgle Bikers, etc. But it would bone Orks hard.

It would bone reavers even worse.

Instead just remove relentless. Hear me out on this because at first it sounds extreme but its not..

Orks- All assault weapons outside of SAG big mek bikers.
DE- All assault weapons, no change.
Necrons- Tesla no change. Gauss blaster cant shoot then assault, still more effective than on infantry. Particle beamer nerfed hard, cant move and shoot, but does anyone even care?
CW Eldar- Scatter lasers nerfed hard, cant move and shoot at full BS, turned into 36" obsec campers which less face it are still amazing. Shuriken weapons no change.
Space marines- Melta no change. Plasma cant shoot then assault, still more effective than infantry. Grav nerfed, cant shoot then assault, still more effective than on infantry. Plasma talon cant shoot then assault.

Thoughts on this idea?

jakejackjake wrote:
Considering Eldar haven't binked or placed in any major tournaments I would change nothing about their book. They are good but not the strongest Codex out. Two Imperial codices are better

And why is that jake? Is it because the Eldar are a weak codex? or because every single tournament nerfs the Eldar codex and limits what they can bring. Every Tournament I have seen has only allowed 1 LoW regardless of Formations/Detachments.

jakejackjake wrote:
Considering Eldar haven't binked or placed in any major tournaments I would change nothing about their book. They are good but not the strongest Codex out. Two Imperial codices are better

Mainly because of all the restrictions all tournaments put on the eldar dodex. If they were allowed to run unrestricted they would stomp all over everyone

dominuschao wrote:

Wouldn't the nerf to Scatter Bikers be an indirect buff to Orks?

I had toyed around with the idea of bikes no longer giving +1T. For the most part, it would be awesome. Wind riders, SM bikes, Nurgle Bikers, etc. But it would bone Orks hard.

It would bone reavers even worse.

Instead just remove relentless. Hear me out on this because at first it sounds extreme but its not..

Orks- All assault weapons outside of SAG big mek bikers.
DE- All assault weapons, no change.
Necrons- Tesla no change. Gauss blaster cant shoot then assault, still more effective than on infantry. Particle beamer nerfed hard, cant move and shoot, but does anyone even care?
CW Eldar- Scatter lasers nerfed hard, cant move and shoot at full BS, turned into 36" obsec campers which less face it are still amazing. Shuriken weapons no change.
Space marines- Melta no change. Plasma cant shoot then assault, still more effective than infantry. Grav nerfed, cant shoot then assault, still more effective than on infantry. Plasma talon cant shoot then assault.

Thoughts on this idea?

Ok, I actually like that. Didn't think I would, but heck, that's actually not a terrible deal. Also, it makes jet pack infantry a little more special. Also, maybe add a tweak such that Eldar jetbikes can't assault move if they fired heavy weapons, thus eliminating the worst problem with scatbikes - you can't frelling catch them! Shuricannons could still hit and fade, and that much Bladestorm is nasty by any metric, but catching a fast unit with 24" guns is much easier.