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Ether wrote: The problem that platoons face is that the awesome destructive power of the las gun is overlooked in favor of heavy weapons. Las guns are mean as hell, doubly so with misfortune or that power from biomancy. Orders make them even more destructive, mobile, and durable, but not all at once. A guardsman may not be great, but give him inspiring leaders and a despotic Commissar, and all of a sudden, that's a well spent set of points.
Speaking of lasguns, yes, they actually are powerful. FRFSRF basically doubles the power of any unit it is given to. 50 point unit? Don't worry, it's worth 100 points. 50 points of free stuff for no reason. IG are supposed to be cannon fodder.
Ten lasguns, FRF, SRF, firing at Tac Marines. 15 hits, 5 wounds, at best two dead marines. Ten marines, Rapid firing bolters, 13.333 hits, 8.888 dead guardsmen. I can situationally kill 14-28 points of stuff a turn. They can kill practically the entire squad!
Typically-Wardian wrote: Are you high? There's a reason that Ordnance weapons cause everything else to snap fire, and it's because Ordnance weapons are really bloody powerful. Practicaly the entire guard army is about spamming cheap high strength low ap weapons. And as for saves against hits, no. Av14 is tough enough as it is, you don't need to make them even closer to unkillable.
So, we pay over a hundred points for a S8 AP 3 pieplate. And no, AV 14 is not tough when everybody and their dog has Haywire, Gauss, Grav, Melta, D-weapons, and S10 weapons. Maybe if the only other army in exsistence was Orks your unreasonable fear of our tanks may be justified.
Typically-Wardian wrote: -All of those weapons typically hit 50% or less of the time, and the first and last suggestions barely do anything when Av14 is around. And krak grenades are not free, they come as stock, but you still pay for them.
- Str 10 Ap 1 Large Blast weapons do not need to get cheaper.
-I take it you've never used any, have you?
-There's enough Ap3 spam already, you do not need to add to the codex creep by totally invalidating whole armies worth of troops.
-Contention over 30" range Salvo 2/4? I should bloody well think so.
-66% of the time. We get ot be the faction of hitting 50% of the time. You may be right about Lascannons, but considering that the backs of Russes are AV 10-11, explain you thought process on Krak Grenades would you. Also, we get glanced to death a lot.
-Skipping this one as it would be an even stupider thing to argue over.
-Can't answer that one
-Yes, because all of the players are so afraid of the dinky little S3 guns ignoring their armor. Never mind that practivally every gunevery army owns ignores ours
-An extra 3 lasgun shots is not doing anything. That's .16667 dead tac marines a round of shooting.
Typically-Wardian wrote: They don't need orders. Getting TH and Ignores cover on weapons that are already very likely to penetrate, or flat out ignore the durability of everything in front of them is not needed.
Yet everybody having D-weapons and the auto-glance engines are perfectly okay?
Afraid they'll deepstrike in and blow up you tanks turn 2?
Seriously, do you think that the IG is overpowered? What do we excel at? What do we do well in this edition? Answer: Make a nice ally for some guy to grab a blob squad to screen his much better tanks with, and provide a signle artillery platform that is named after a mythical reptile.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/01 22:07:55
Are you high? There's a reason that Ordnance weapons cause everything else to snap fire, and it's because Ordnance weapons are really bloody powerful. Practicaly the entire guard army is about spamming cheap high strength low ap weapons. And as for saves against hits, no. Av14 is tough enough as it is, you don't need to make them even closer to unkillable.
I wish I was high so I didn't care to read the whinings of a "long time lurker" who got tabled by an IG player 10 years ago. Your name Robin Cruddance?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/01 22:52:18
Are you high? There's a reason that Ordnance weapons cause everything else to snap fire, and it's because Ordnance weapons are really bloody powerful. Practicaly the entire guard army is about spamming cheap high strength low ap weapons. And as for saves against hits, no. Av14 is tough enough as it is, you don't need to make them even closer to unkillable.
I wish I was high so I didn't care to read the whinings of a "long time lurker" who got tabled by an IG player 10 years ago. Your name Robin Cruddance?
Are you high? There's a reason that Ordnance weapons cause everything else to snap fire, and it's because Ordnance weapons are really bloody powerful. Practicaly the entire guard army is about spamming cheap high strength low ap weapons. And as for saves against hits, no. Av14 is tough enough as it is, you don't need to make them even closer to unkillable.
I wish I was high so I didn't care to read the whinings of a "long time lurker" who got tabled by an IG player 10 years ago. Your name Robin Cruddance?
Wait, I thought Cruddance like IG?
I did too until the 6th edition codex, now I think he only likes Space Marines
I read lasgun destructive power and I nearly cried. The damn thing is a complete waste of dice.
lets take the best case scenario. 50 blob with frsrf so round up 150 shots. Twolve lord running right at you. you hit 75. you wound 12.5. he fails to save 2. he fnps 1. you have done 1 wound to a unit that is about to eat you for lunch. When they charge you they will kill 20-25 guardsman per turn. Best case scenario is you delay him by 1 turn. WTF is that. It's not viable is what it is. 250 point unit did nothing.
Are you high? There's a reason that Ordnance weapons cause everything else to snap fire, and it's because Ordnance weapons are really bloody powerful.
They're not really, there's a number of blast weapons that have similar S and AP that don't get stuck with the Ordnance rule, it's a relic of 3E, nothing more. There are *way* more powerful weapons out there without the same restriction. Hell, D weapons don't have that restriction.
Ordnance weapons look scary on paper, but what works in 7E isn't the big scary blast weapons, it's weapons with lots of shots, and that work off special effects. Having an S8 AP3 pieplate is cool, but having 5 S8 shots is almost always better, and that's what other armies are doing. The big blast weapons simply are not the terrors they were in 4E and 5E.
Practicaly the entire guard army is about spamming cheap high strength low ap weapons. And as for saves against hits, no. Av14 is tough enough as it is, you don't need to make them even closer to unkillable.
Are you playing 7E? I'm asking this legitimately, because it sounds like you're very much in a 5E paradigm.
AV14 is incredibly easy to work around.
Melta and delivery systems are more available, cheaper, and reliable than ever. D weapons, Grav, Gauss, Lance and Haywire are available in huge quantities on exceedingly accurate platforms. AV14 doesn't mean squat.
There's a reason you don't see AV14-spam IG armies winning tournaments, and haven't ever. Find me an example of an IG AV14 spam army winning a tournament. You won't find one.
I've taken AV14 spam IG armies with nothing but Russ tanks to tournaments. They don't have the mobility to reach objectives. They don't have the firepower to kill half the stuff you see on tables these days, and for many armies dealing with AV14 is literally no different than dealing with AV10 when their weapons don't care what number it is (e.g. Destroyer or Grav).
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
GCox wrote: I read lasgun destructive power and I nearly cried. The damn thing is a complete waste of dice.
Two things. First, unsupported, I agree with you. The las gun blob isn't all that hot. If, however, you throw in psychic powers, you have a better outcome.
Second, your proposed use is sub optimal. Las gun blobs shold not shoot at thunderwolves. Melta/plasma vets, demo charges, demolishers, heavy weapons squads should, and they'd do a fine job of it. The las guns would be firing at obsec units like podding tac marines or long range units like devastators. Finally, if the only units on the table are thunderwolves, you really ought to assault them rather than let the opposite happen. You deny hammer of wrath, you get the bonus charge, and you can fiddle with the ranges to limit the casualties you take in the event of multiple initiative values in the T-wolf unit. Not to mention inquisitors and cheap power weapons on sergeants.
The other option is paying 70 points for a bs3 las cannon which will do 0.33 wounds assuming you get ignores cover. If you max out on 5, you get a whopping 1.65 wounds, a 65% gain for a 40% points increase.
Incidentally, krak grenades, yes or no on monstrous cavalry?
It occurs to me that this thread is thinking too much in pre-Formations.
Let's think about what actual Guard formations would be like, shall we? That's the real game changer. I've been writing up a 7th edition codex for guard and decided on the following format for the Guard Decurion. Also apologize if I butcher the fluff but I'm a game-first fluff-second sort of guy.
Imperial Grande Armée (For lack of a better term, sounds pretty sweet tho) The Emperor's Might: In an Imperial Grand Armée, all Astra Militarum units automatically pass any Order given to them and all Officers may issue an additional Order a turn. Furthermore, any Astra Militarum unit within 12" of a Senior Officer in this army uses his LD for any tests they may take.
The Imperial Grand Armée requires 1-3 Astra Militarum Battle-Companies and then X of whatever else
Astra Militarum Battle-Company 1 Master Command Squad or 1 Command Squad or 1 Command Tank (master command squads are like the old Chapter Approved squads with better commanders, and whatnot) 1+ Commissars 3-8 Infantry Platoons 1-3 Veteran Squads 1-4 Sentinel Squadrons 1-4 Leman Russ Squadrons 0-2 Artillery Squadrons 0-2 Artillery Emplacements (I've included the excellent Forgeworld Emplaced Artillery in here)
Special Rules: Objective Secured Infantry Platoons and Veteran Squads may take free upgrades OR a free dedicated transport. Sentinel Squadrons may Run and then Shoot Vehicle and Walker Squadrons gain +1 to their cover saves as long as there is an intervening infantry unit.
Special Rules: All Weapons with the Barrage special rule gain the Pinning, Strikedown, and Heavy Impact Special Rules
Preliminary Bombardment: Before the start of the first turn but after Infiltrators are set up, this formation must be given a special shooting phase. All weapons must be treated as firing Indirectly.
Heavy Impact: On a to-wound roll of 6, this weapon does D6 wounds instead of 1.
Armored Battalion 1 Command Tank (can be Pask) 1-3 Leman Russ Battle Squadron (these are the 14/13/10 Russes) 1-3 Leman Russ Siege Squadron (these are the 14/13/11 Russes)
Special Rules: Objective Secured. All upgrades in an Armored Battalion may be taken for free. The Command Tank’s Command Radius is 18”.
Restrictions: All units (except the Command Tank) must include 3 models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/02 02:44:54
I agree with most of what Vaktathi and BlaxicanX have posted, I could post too but I would just mainly be echoing the suggestions those two have already posted. I think many guard players on are on the same page when it comes to what they want to see in the next dex, and what the current dex's problems are.
I was playing a game of Guard vs Guard last night, 3000 points per side. Over the course of the game a lot of what we talked about in terms of what we want for the next codex was already stated. The only thing which isn't, which is total wishlisting and probably won't happen, is that we definitely want Guardsmen Marbo back.
Also, Veterans with camo cloaks, 4+ armor, and meltabombs can be surprisingly, and at times, annoyingly resilient when there is ample cover on the board and plenty of opportunities to put those melta bombs to use. Learned that one the hard way last night.
Having just played a tank-heavy game with a friend, he had this to say in regards to Russes:
"Leman russes have the significant advantage of effective fire and maneuver in the same turn, this allows for a deployment with no line of sight and so guaranteed first effective salvo (I am seriously jealous of this). The price does seem high but remember it is a very well armoured tank (no side 11av on a battle tank unlike some). some price drop should be available or an upgrade to shoot the hull weapons does seem in order. Russes also have camo net available use, as a longtime space marine player who has favored predators since 4th edition I have come across numerous situations where a single point more's cover save would have saved a predator form a side armour shot (I regularly play agents dark eldar at the moment, in a very heavy urban environment against one of the top players in the gaming club i sometimes go to). Maybe a bonus for squadroning three Russes such as the predator recently received would be a sensible idea. I do understand your pain having just ko'ed a hell hammer and 5 russes in a 2000pts game, by turn 3. One thing to consider is that doubling the hull point damage of a vanquisher means that only two penetrations are need to wreck even a very high value Landraider, maybe 1.5HP removed (how to do this i am unsure) would not totally invalidate the expensive 4th hull point but boost standard tank killing power.
Following on the discussion of possibly giving Guard access to Grav-weapons, what are people's thoughts that instead of simply plonking them onto a Leman Russ, they were instead distributed something along the lines as follows:
- Grav-pistol - Techpriests
- Grav-guns - Tempestus Scions, as part of the Special weapons list
- Grav-cannons - Servitors, Sentinels (Scout/Armoured/Both)
Yoyoyo wrote: This thread suffers from suggesting solutions before actually defining the problem.
Good point. I think the current problem with the AM is its terribad possible damage output / effective unit durability rate and the strange combined-arms cross-dependency. AM units can't really dish out that much damage before being incapacitated (either by being destroyed completely or losing their truly effective weapons), and while their numbers are supposed to counterbalance this, the fact that you need to take a lot of different stuff in order to make the army work, you will still end up with only a handful of the same units. The best example is the Leman Russ: its firepower... is 'meh' to be honest, though it can still deliver a punch in the right situation - however, it can be eliminated/disabled easily with the right weapons; to minimize the impact of these counters, the AM player has to take blobs (for wrapping), some sort of AA (as the LR can't do jacksh*t against flyers), and maybe a few specialists to say no to the tricksters (like LOS ignoring artillery, fast units to incapacitate long-range AT, stuff like that). Then, of course, you need support for the blob, defense for the AA (probably +1 blob), and support for the specialists - things the LR can't do, so you need moar units. Then, after you have a whole army around your LR(s), you can sit back and pour out that 'meh' shots and wait for the right moment (that either happens or not) so that your LR(s) can really shine.
This is my take on the fundamental problem with the AM Codex. As a solution, I can imagine some sort of army-wide power boost (not point drop), so that individual units can do their stuff without relying on support, or they can support each other well even if there is only 2-3 different types of unit on the battlefield.
I really like the idea of the modular Leman Russ, which badly needs a price cut in any case. I'm also really digging the idea of the independent turret and protection from glances.
I don't really see what the problem with Ablative Armor is, though. Vehicles die all over the place these days, and I think +20 points is more than fair, especially given that you've already dropped a pretty penny on it for a commander.
As for the BANEBLADE, I've really been feeling that it hasn't been the Freight Train of Hate it was meant to be recently. I was toying with the idea of giving it Wide-Angle Flare Shields, which reduce the strength of front/side hits by -1/-2 for blasts. Maybe have them also automatically reflect Distortion weapons or something, too.
Vaktathi wrote: here were my general thoughts on the IG codex as a whole from a different thread
Spoiler:
First and foremost, they can ditch the faux-latin, harry-potter sounding "Astra Militarum" moniker, they're the Imperial Guard.
Now, there's all sorts of insanity that could be undertaken with formations and detachments that I'll avoid for now.
First, they really need Orders to be applied to vehicles, and the HQ tank should just be an upgrade without needing a Squadron, and be able to issue orders the way Infantry command squads can. Voxes also need to function as a range enhancer, not a silly reroll.
However, most IG units need some work, most are still costed and designed to a 5E or even 3E/4E paradigm, and in dire need of assistance, many of which have needed assistance for many years, or in some cases, always since...ever.
Lets go through the list here
HQ:
Commissar Yarrick: 145pts, less survivable than significantly less expensive MEQ characters, not a tremendous degree of utility. If he's going to stay in the same general price range as character like Tigurius, Khan, and the like, he needs to go back to being Fearless and have a fearsome bubble effect. Otherwise he needs a drastic price decrease.
Company Command Squad: Largely actually pretty allright., but certainly could stand to go back down to their 5E costs.
Creed: A very expensive upgrade for an HQ with zero CC potential and only S3 6" range shooting attacks. Kell likewise needs to be paired with him, and costs an absurd number of points.
Straken: Allright, but hugely overcosted.
Deddog: Should be no more than *maybe* 40pts at his current incarnation.
Tank Commander: Make Orders function more like Infantry command squad orders, remove necessity to be in a squadron (where much of his function is just to overcome the detriments of being a Squadron in the first place)
Pask: If Chronus gets to be BS5 and be a W2 Character if his tank dies for just 10pts more than Pask, Pask should really do more than just minorly enhance the main gun for 40pts
Lord Commissar: Sort of functional, but really needs to be like 40/50pts, not 65 base and 80/90 after gear, particularly at T3 with a 5+ save.Somewhat overtaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different.
Commissar: Largeyovertaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different. Unfortunately pointless in most units given the small size, light durability, and low value in most instances.
Priest: Insanely amazing in blob platoons and Ogryn units, otherwise largely pointless. They overtake Commissars in their intended role, I'd make them more combat enhancy than Fearless/morale enhancey.
Primaris Psyker: Unfortuantely they're probably the least impressive psykers in the game for their relative investment. I'm not sure why IG psykers have to be less impressive than anyone else's other than "just because". 50pts for a W2 T3 5+sv lvl1 psyker, or 25pts for a lvl2, isn't particularly stellar.
Engineseer: Hilariously overcosted, really needs the Techmarine/Magos Dominus treatment, better repair ability and a 2nd wound if he's gonna cost 40pts base. That price didn't work in 3E, and it certainly doesn't work in 7E. Perhaps they could be like a 20pt attachment to a vehicle squadron instead?
Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad: Not much needs to be done with these other than the aforementioned Orders changes and a drop back to 5E price.
Infantry Squad: These guys need some help. Blob platoons are sort of functional with some HQ support, however, aside from that, they're really bad. Taken as individual units, they're "cheap" in absolute value, but rather expensive for their relative value, and blobbed without HQ support they are absurdly easy to remove en-masse. 50pts for a 10man "3 statline" Ld7 5+sv model with one BS3 heavy weapon and one BS3 special weapon simple is not an appropriate price any longer.
Heavy Weapons Squad: Oh man, these are amongst the worst units in the codex. They're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, some of the most expensive infantry heavy weapons in the game. They cost an additional 50% more than equivalent numbers of already rather expensive Infantry Squad models, and that's before they get any guns. The way these function, as W2 T3 Ld7 models simply makes them absurdly vulnerable to destruction by multi-shot S6 weaponry, a single wound getting through kills off 33% of the unit and forces an Ld7 break test. There's several things that could be done here. They could simply be made vastly cheaper to more appropriately reflect their value. Cut 25pts off each unit and you have a more realistic price for what they're really worth. Three BS3 T3 LD7 models with autocannons is probably worth ~50pts, not 75. The ability to "blob" them would also be really helpful. Alternatively, if we just don't want to make them absurdly cheap, they could be treated differently, much like Gun Teams in Flames of War. We've got two gunners and a large weapon, and the models typically have a gun shield and some sort of "entrenchment" like sand bags that come with the model, why not make them a T5 gun team? Like T7 Artillery, but not quite as impressive.
Special Weapons Squad: Face much the same issue as the above. Most critically they can't take a transport. Give them a transport option and the ability to at least get Ld8 somehow, and we're back on track.
Conscripts: The "blob" ability of basic Infantry Squads has largely made these guys superfluous. I think they should be taken out of the Platoon altogether and be made a simple Troops choice on their own.
Veterans: Largely ok.
Harker: 55pts for an S4 rending Heavy Bolter? 10pts? Sure. 15pts? Maybe. 55pts? That's easily 4x his actual value.
Dedicated Transports:
Chimera: This thing simply needs to be cheaper. 65pts for a transport with a single non-AV10 facing, with BS3 guns, no Fast or Skimmer benefits, a single rear-facing hatch, and that carries T3 5+sv infantry? Absolutely needs to be cheaper. If they want to boost its side armor, then it might be worth 65pts, but at its current stats? Especially after the reduction in fire points? 55pts tops.
Taurox: It's ugly. It's rather pointless. It was unasked for. It fills no role or niche. That said, GW's not going to cut it. If it's going to be kept, with lower BS and side armor than a Razorback, and transporting crappier troops, it really needs to be either cheaper, or faster. If the basic Taurox were also Fast, it would actually have a purpose and be worth the points. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.
Taurox Prime: Simply too expensive. 80pts base for something only slightly better armored than a Trukk is absurd. It's got decent firepower and speed, but should probably be 20pts cheaper with each of its weapons upgrade options cut in price by half. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.
Elites:
Ogryn: This is a prime example of where using Ld as an intelligence reflector does not work. These guys are stupid yes, but always portrayed as insanely brave. Stubborn on an Ld6/7 unit doesn't do that, in fact, Stubborn is largely pointless. These guys really should have very high Ld. They also should be like 15/20ppm less. Fix the Ld and cost issues and you've got a workable unit.
Bullgryns: Same as above for Ogryns.
Ratlings: These guys are T2 Elites with Stealth. They're monstrously overcosted at 10ppm, particularly when you've got things like Eldar Rangers as Troops with T3 & Shrouded and functionally the same run/shoot special rule (and Fleet to boot) along with a much more fearsome secondary weapon, at 12ppm. These guys are worth no more than maybe 7 or 8ppm.
Wyrdvane Psykers: A 60pt ML1 psyker taking up an Elites slot? Really?
Tempestus Scions: Guardsmen Statline, Space Marine cost. Heavy weapon AP, Lasgun strength, even worse range. These guys really need a fix. They should be Ld8/9 not 7/8. Either make the gun S4 and assault 2, or dump the AP entirely, make them actual *stormtroopers*, given them WS4, Furious Charge, get a pistol/CCW, and make the gun S3 Assault 3 18" to make them a more functional short range infiltration tactic archetypal "Stormtrooper" unit.
Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron: These guys have one schtick, outflanking, and even that, they're not particularly stellar at. AV10, open topped, HP2 is largely equivalent to T6 W2 Sv-, but worse. At 25pts they might be ok, but not at 35ppm or 105pts for a full unit, not for a very easily killed BS3 model with a multilaser.
Armored Sentinel Squadron: These guys are at least useable, but hardly really a "Fast Attack" unit, and still relatively expensive for what they offer. They could probably do with a 5ppm discount.
Rough Riders: Absolutely terrible. 11ppm for a fast moving guardsmen with a one-use, highly situational power weapon, and isn't a Troops unit. They really need to get the DKoK Death Rider treatment (W2 4+sv, A3 etc) for what they cost now.
Hellhound Squadron & Variants: All of these basically need a 40-55pt price cut. Non-skimmer Fast vehicles with short ranged weaponry costing as much as AV14 Battle Tanks and long ranged Skimmer tanks? There's a reason these are largely absent from most armies. They also need to come with smoke launchers base.
Valkyrie: As a naked transport, it's absurdly pricey for what it offers. For its base loadout, it really shouldn't be anything more than 90pts, not 125. The Hellstrike missiles also need to drop Ordnance unless they're going to make them Large Blast as well.
Vendetta: It's fine.
Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Squadron: Imma break this one up by variant
Leman Russ Battle Tank: needs to have a way to use its non-turret weaponry, firing everything else as snapshots is purely punitive and serves no balance function, particularly on a 150pt BS3 tank.
Leman Russ Demolisher: As above, but also needs to be cheaper. Paying 50pts to lose a point of BS and gain better armor over a Vindicator is absurd.
Leman Russ Vanquisher: A single shot BS3 Meltagun that lacks AP1 is not a terribly functional anti-tank unit. This variant really should be BS4 and AP1, or alternatively, something like a 2 shot main gun. With the changes in vehicles to HP's and the nerfing of the damage table, single shot, high pen weapons are of little value, particularly at BS3 and triple digit points. If it had the Coaxial stubber of FW's iterations, to give rerolls on the main gun, that would help a lot, but it needs AP1 either way to really be worth anything.
Leman Russ Eradicator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Punisher: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Exterminator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Executioner: Lose Gets Hot on the main gun. Increase its cost by 15pts if you must. The thing just loses too many shots to Gets Hot and is too likely to kill itself over the course of a game to be a functional unit.
Hydras: oh man these got violated with the last codex. They were amazing in 5E. Situational, mediocre, but functional in 6E. When they got the new rules, they lost their "ignore jink saves" rule, and got made Open Topped, for no good reason. Now, the kit's already out, that's not going to change, so making them Closed Topped again won't happen, at least not as a base unit. However, they really should get their "ignores Jink" rule back. I'd also move them to Elites. They're really not a Heavy Support unit, and with the way an IG army works, they'd really be a better fit there.
Basilisk Battery: The Basilisk has been the same stagnant crap unit for 16 years now. It has no purpose outside of Apocalypse games as it's run now. The minimum range needs to be brought down to something like 12-18", otherwise it might as well not be able to indirectly fire with the vast expanse of the board it can't hit within minimum range without exposing itself otherwise. Indirect fire is not worth losing a crapton of armor and becoming Open Topped over just taking a Leman Russ Battle Tank for 25pts more, and even that isn't a great unit. Also, re-include the Griffon and Medusa.
Wyvern: These should probably go up to 80pts, or lose Ignores Cover. Like the Hydra, I'd also move them to Elites. Leave HS to the big guns, lighter guns should go in Elites.
Manticore: Needs a price-break. At 170pts, with limited ammo, and the changes to the vehicle damage table greatly neutering that S10 (and with AP4 neutering its effectiveness against non-vehicles targets that S10 would otherwise be great against), it's simply too many points to fill any real role aside from killing Necron Warriors in the open. Alternatively, redesign the rockets. Make a dedicate anti-armor/antibuilding rocket and an alternate loadout that's more effective against armored infantry.
Deathstrike: This really shouldn't be a "Codex" unit at all, but since it must be, I'd just remove the limit on when you can shoot it. For 160pts and a one-use unit, a 10" S10 AP1 pieplate just isn't that scary anymore.
Other Wargear:
Enclosed Crew Compartment: Really doesn't need to be 15pts, vehicle kill is through HP's, not damage table, this should be a 5 or 10pt upgrade.
Grenade Launchers: At this point, these simply are not useful enough to be taken unless they were free. Even if free, they'd most likely always typically be replaced. Making them Assault 2 or Rapid Fire or the like would hardly be overpowering, and might make them at least worth considering.
I'd also like to see a more "medium tank" type unit. Something along the lines of a Hellhound, but with maybe a twin linked three shot Autocannon turret for ~90pts?
I like pretty much everything in this, I think you're pretty close to the mark. Particularly like the idea of heavy weapons teams as "artillery lite". There are a couple of changes I'd make: I'd go more down Selym's route for the Russ, cheaper rather than better. IMHOIG tanks are supposed to work Soviet style, overwhelming with numbers rather than having fantastic individual tanks (although they can still be good!)
I'm also not sure about Wyverns in elites, but this is where I think formations could get the extra vehicles in. That would also maybe give a route for things like spotters; a formation of camo veterans and artillery?
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's give Rough Riders a role IG actually needs. Interception. They can declare an out-of-sequence charge against units arriving from reserve
This way they could scoot up as flank security for advancing Russ tanks, or protect artillery in your backfield. Any potential to develop this idea?
Make them cheaper and give them access to better armour. And make their weapons multi use.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Yoyoyo wrote: Let's give Rough Riders a role IG actually needs. Interception. They can declare an out-of-sequence charge against units arriving from reserve
This way they could scoot up as flank security for advancing Russ tanks, or protect artillery in your backfield. Any potential to develop this idea?
Make them cheaper and give them access to better armour. And make their weapons multi use.
WS4 S4 T4, I think that'd do the trick.
"Bringer of death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's death." - Litany of the Lasgun
Selym wrote: Then you get complaints about them being "cheaper, faster space marines"...
It'd make them capable, but the complaints on a per-game basis will be astronomical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Allow a Carapace Armour upgrade, and the choice to swap out the special lances for power weapons (you never know).
Maybe also allow one or two special weapons per unit. Then they'd fill the Biker role that other armies have.
TBF we will always get whining from the majority of the Space Marine players. Every time a lowly Guardsman kills one of his special snowflake marines, every time a squad of said snowflakes out in the open eats a Battlecannon shell, every time we manage to achieve something against them and every time a Missile launcher fails to damage the frontal armour of a Leman Russ we will have to face the "Thats OP" "That shouldnt happen because the fluff says so" and the "Thats bullgak, Space marine tanks arent that tough"
So I say make the Rough Riders good. Carapace armour as standard, multi use Hunting Lances, S 4 and T 4, 2 attacks as base and make them cheaper, around 8 points. Make them SCARY.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
TBF we will always get whining from the majority of the Space Marine players. Every time a lowly Guardsman kills one of his special snowflake marines, every time a squad of said snowflakes out in the open eats a Battlecannon shell, every time we manage to achieve something against them and every time a Missile launcher fails to damage the frontal armour of a Leman Russ we will have to face the "Thats OP" "That shouldnt happen because the fluff says so" and the "Thats bullgak, Space marine tanks arent that tough"
So I say make the Rough Riders good. Carapace armour as standard, multi use Hunting Lances, S 4 and T 4, 2 attacks as base and make them cheaper, around 8 points. Make them SCARY.
Maybe not 8 ppm, but less than a SM, and capable of killing 1 or more in a charge. 1 MEQ kill per model on the charge should be slightly under average. 2 kills should be slightly over average, but not uncommon.
In regards to SM player's attitude. God yes. Every single time. I'll field 7 Russ Hulls, and be tabled by T3 (or T4 if I brought a Baneblade), and he'll counter with 3 triple-las-preds. I'll kill one, maybe two in the game, and he'll complain that a LRBT has too much armour, and that a Predator has too little. Ffs.
He's not even butthurt, he just genuinely doesn't understand that Marines can lose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/12 11:36:47
Selym wrote: Then you get complaints about them being "cheaper, faster space marines"...
It'd make them capable, but the complaints on a per-game basis will be astronomical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Allow a Carapace Armour upgrade, and the choice to swap out the special lances for power weapons (you never know).
Maybe also allow one or two special weapons per unit. Then they'd fill the Biker role that other armies have.
Cheaper, faster space marines with a 5+ armor save and BS3 lasguns
Still get that though. Had to go through an argument once about how Veterans are cheese because they are cheap Bs4 Meltagun/Plasmagun spammers.
Oh do NOT get me started on some of the whining I have recieved because a section in my army dared to have even ONE stat which equalled a basic Space Marines. Or even worse the whining when I dared to field Heavy tanks each of which was somewhere between 8% to 15% of my total points allowance and just so happened to have more armour than his Medium tank which costs around 5% of his allowance.
The whining when I dared to field 7 tanks in a 2K game of which only four ignored his armour and only three where large blast.
When it comes down to it Space marine players will whine over just about anything that the Imperial Guard have if it even dares to so much as come CLOSE to a Space Smurfs abilities or dars to so much as counter them even once.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
I've seen that one first-hand, and I don't even play IG. Sisters get many of the same complaints - and doubly so because Sisters have been known to shrug off lascannons (Shield of Faith, it's magic - 16.67% of the time!)