Why YOU should boycott the events at Warhammer World - prevent 40k from being Age of Sigmar'd!

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**Nidzrule!**

Wonderwolf - I do understand that if you were a "competitive" gamer, there are a whole bunch of events you could attend outside of Warhammer World that could scratch your itch.

However, the reason I am so alarmed now is because of AoS being introduced and there being rumours that 40k will follow. I didn't really care when WW decided that they were going to run tournaments where favourite game votes decided who won. People who like that format can go and I wish them and the events team the best.

But if WW starts running events where points are an afterthought and there is an increasingly lack of structure for 40k events, then I should start to take note. It is better to do something now rather than passively accept that "things will happen so whatever". If AoS occurred to 40k, Nova, BAO, etc. etc. as well as us occasional players will have to come up with some common system of balance. Now THAT is a drag.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Deathless Host. I hope you are right. But the fact that AoS is being run as a campaign event at WW means that it is highly unlikely there will be a 9th edition. Unless AoS totally and utterly bombs. If you want to make sure there's a 9th edition, you need to make yourself heard. And the best way to do that is through GW's pocket.

**Smacks**

Wonderwolf wrote:
Smacks wrote:
I doubt you'll get enough people to agree to boycott to make any impact. A better idea would be to actually go to the tournament with a few like-minded people and demonstrate what's wrong. If something is broken or open to abuse then go there and abuse it.

So you'd spoil other people's fun just to vindicate your internet-crusade?

If the game isn't fun when played by the rules then it is the fault of the game designers, not the players. Bringing problems to their attention is better for everyone.

Also it's not my crusade, I don't care if they AoS 40k, I'd prefer a lighter more accessible version.

**Wonderwolf**

Smacks wrote:

If the game isn't fun when played by the rules then it is the fault of the game designers, not the players. Bringing problems to their attention is better for everyone.

Who are you to decide that the people attending aren't having fun?

**Smacks**

Wonderwolf wrote:
Smacks wrote:

If the game isn't fun when played by the rules then it is the fault of the game designers, not the players. Bringing problems to their attention is better for everyone.

Who are you to decide that the people attending aren't having fun?

Well who are you to decide? I simply suggested he go there and abuse what is abusable. You're the one saying that would spoil peoples fun. How do you know that wouldn't make it more fun? Who are you to decide?

**Buttery Commissar**

Smacks wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
Smacks wrote:

If the game isn't fun when played by the rules then it is the fault of the game designers, not the players. Bringing problems to their attention is better for everyone.

Who are you to decide that the people attending aren't having fun?
Well who are you to decide? I simply suggested he go there and abuse what is abusable. You're the one saying that would spoil peoples fun. How do you know that wouldn't make it more fun? Who are you to decide?

Perhaps it is your use of the word "demonstrate"?
it could be taken to mean protest, which yes, if I paid to play in a tournament have to spend two hours playing against someone who's complaining, protesting, or making a point, that's where I start to care.

What did you actually mean?

**The Deathless Host**

Nidzrule! wrote:

@Deathless Host. I hope you are right. But the fact that AoS is being run as a campaign event at WW means that it is highly unlikely there will be a 9th edition. Unless AoS totally and utterly bombs. If you want to make sure there's a 9th edition, you need to make yourself heard. And the best way to do that is through GW's pocket.

Lol yeah only language they will ever understand!

**pities2004**

I'm boycotting this threads waste of bandwidth.

**heartserenade**

The Deathless Host wrote:
The thing people seem to be missing is...AoS is going to sell like crap. The models look derpy, the rules are just...too simple. Its a gateway game. To what you ask? Well, what's coming out in the next year or so?

Total war: Warhammer. Have you any idea how much exposure that game is going to bring? And what currently would it expose; a relatively easy to pick up model game thats got a reasonable buy in price. But its small scale? Not meshing well with the total ethos of total war? Well that's why I believe AoS is being set up for a War of the Ring style expansion (why do they still sell minis on square bases if its a skirmish game without unit cohesion?)

But onto 40k, I think we can all agree that 7th ed should really have been called 6th.5 IT STREAMLINED every expansion (unbound = apocalypse). 7th is the AoS of 40k and guess what? It works rather well.

Anyway to sum up for those who skipped:
- Age of Sigmar is going to sell badly
- 40k is GW's cash cow so reducing the number of models per battle would destroy sales
- Age of Sigmar is a gateway game; 9th ed will be along some time in the next year or so.

The problem with this hypothesis is that AoS is nothing like WHFB or Total War: Warhammer. It's not a mass battle fantasy game, the setting is entirely different, and the heroes in the videogame are dead in AoS.

So the TW game is good advertisement for a tabletop game that GW doesn't produce anymore.

**Smacks**

Buttery Commissar wrote:
Perhaps it is your use of the word "demonstrate"?
it could be taken to mean protest, which yes, if I paid to play in a tournament have to spend two hours playing against someone who's complaining, protesting, or making a point, that's where I start to care.

What did you actually mean?

No I meant demonstrate as in "give a practical exhibition of"/"illustrate", not "protest", although it would still be making a point.

How the OP would go about doing that would depend on what exactly he takes issue with in the respective games, and if those grievances are warranted. I personally don't have a problem with AoS. It's probably the closest I've come to caring about fantasy in ~20 years.

**The Deathless Host**

heartserenade wrote:
The Deathless Host wrote:
The thing people seem to be missing is...AoS is going to sell like crap. The models look derpy, the rules are just...too simple. Its a gateway game. To what you ask? Well, what's coming out in the next year or so?

Total war: Warhammer. Have you any idea how much exposure that game is going to bring? And what currently would it expose; a relatively easy to pick up model game thats got a reasonable buy in price. But its small scale? Not meshing well with the total ethos of total war? Well that's why I believe AoS is being set up for a War of the Ring style expansion (why do they still sell minis on square bases if its a skirmish game without unit cohesion?)

But onto 40k, I think we can all agree that 7th ed should really have been called 6th.5 IT STREAMLINED every expansion (unbound = apocalypse). 7th is the AoS of 40k and guess what? It works rather well.

Anyway to sum up for those who skipped:
- Age of Sigmar is going to sell badly
- 40k is GW's cash cow so reducing the number of models per battle would destroy sales
- Age of Sigmar is a gateway game; 9th ed will be along some time in the next year or so.

The problem with this hypothesis is that AoS is nothing like WHFB or Total War: Warhammer. It's not a mass battle fantasy game, the setting is entirely different, and the heroes in the videogame are dead in AoS.

So the TW game is good advertisement for a tabletop game that GW doesn't produce anymore.

Exactly, they still make all the minis, just not the rules. When it comes out it will rekindle interest from new players. You will notice I pointed out the descrpency and lack of cohesion in my original post. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot to not take advantage of this opportunity, then again this is GW.

**Ravenous D**

Sigvatr wrote:
Aye, old GW tournaments also had rulepacks. Slim ones, but they had ones. That was old GW though.

Yeah that was back when it was Games Workshop, not Make-gak-up-yourselves-we-just-don't-care-anymore Sweatshop.

**Da Stormlord**

Why does everyone think 40k is going to be sigmar'd? I bet once its not so new everyone will turn back to 40k.

**Ravenous D**

Da Stormlord wrote:
Why does everyone think 40k is going to be sigmar'd? I bet once its not so new everyone will turn back to 40k.

All the rumours from reliable sources are saying dexes are gone sometime in the future and we have less than a year until the 2 year expected window for 7th is up. Plus the rumours of a stripped down 40k are floating around.

**Nidzrule!**

@pities2004 It's not a waste of bandwidth or time to me.

It's a hobby I have invested a lot in over the years and I would like to highlight this development to the community which I find alarming.

@Smacks It is difficult to demonstrate a point to WW by participating in these events as by participating you are giving tacit approval to the way they are run. You cant really demonstrate through the list that you run as the format is so unstructured.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ravenous D That's correct. And with the way WW are moving in their tournament packs, its just further confirmation of a potentially ruinous trend.

**triplegrim**

Da Stormlord wrote:
Why does everyone think 40k is going to be sigmar'd? I bet once its not so new everyone will turn back to 40k.

What does it even mean to be sigmared for 40k?

**Bede19025**

Nidzrule! wrote:
I am a longtime lurker and very occasional poster on my favourite tabletop wargames - 40k followed by WHFB.

I have reserved my feelings regarding the death of WHFB (which I got into as a 12 year old) for a long time since the rumours surrounding the Age of Sigmar started appearing and eventually became reality. Even with the launch of the boxed set for AoS and the warscrolls, I continued to be optimistic - this could not be it. This could not be what GW leaves us with, particularly players who do not have a regular playgroup and look for pick up games. Surely there would be some ability to balance for this at some stage... usually the guys at Warhammer World can come up with something usable. I mean these were the guys who came up with a useful campaign ruleset for Killteam on their own.

Now I have seen the latest on the planned Age of Sigmar event on the Warhammer World event website which absolutely boggles the mind.

"The amount of time you have to play the game is the only real restriction so bring whatever you think would get you a great game in that time." This is ridiculous. Seriously. This is a complete abdication of the business' ability or want to balance the game.

I am even more alarmed by what they are doing for the Horus Heresy campaign weekend. The choice is 2000 points BUT there is no upper limit. It entirely depends on a nebulous restriction around what you think you can do within the time allotted per game. Seriously?!?!

I don't mind that the events are now basically marketing campaigns for the GW's games and are driven by favourite game votes. I GET it. You want sportsmanship to drive who WINS these events. I buy that. Horses for courses. But this latest development is ridiculous. I have seen the rumours that have been flagged on Natfka and by Hastings on how 40k may be Age of Sigmar'd. The fact that they are doing these events for AoS and also something similar for Horus Heresy is making me scared for my favourite game 40k. I dont want some ridiculous crap being pushed onto me by a games company that cannot be bothered with writing rules and leaves us to make it up on the fly. This is our chance to take a stand. Do NOT attend these events. There will always be guys buying the models but we need to send a message. It stops here - please do not mess with our 40k game. I have already lost WHFB - I DONT want to lose 40k.

Look some people will think I am alarmist. Some people will think that I have written a great crazy wall of text. Please be willing to digest what I have written. I am open to your views. I am just afraid of where GW is going with 40k. This is relevant to everyone who loves the 40k game as it is even if you are not in the UK and find it logistically to attend events at Nottingham. In that case highlight your views to the events team at Warhammer World. It's a drop of water but every drop counts. This is different to the usual threads where you convince people to "boycott" buying models - you cant reach the entire communnity easily. But people who go to events? Thats us. Thats why we need to open our mouths and vote with our wallets or an email. This may be the start of Age of Sigmarification for 40k and it is up us to do something about it.

Could you not go and give it a try? Is it not possible that you'll enjoy it?

**Ravenous D**

Well we know GW thinks points and force orgs are what was restricting sales (not their prices though!). Essentially GW is moving in the direction of making a single page of fluff and rules when a unit comes out and force players to govern themselves. That's been the trend for years, GW cuts itself to the bone just to stay level.

Meanwhile the problem is that it alienates a lot of your player base and makes for a shittastic game, all these GW guys keep saying its "beer and pretzels" when it looks more akin to milk and cookies.

**Samurai_Eduh**

I'll pass on the boycott, thanks. Age of Sigmar is fine and you know what? I hope 40k gets the same treatment.

**triplegrim**

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I I hope 40k gets the same treatment.

What would that entail, excactly?

**Slipstream**

1) There are 7 40k rulebooks
2) Surely it is possible to combine all into the rulebook that GW will never do,i.e. one that is balanced and doesn't need changed?
3) How many more rulebooks do you need to play the game? One not enough?Let's face it, they are never going to get it right because you'd never buy another edition!
4) Do you really need GW? You have the rules,scenery and figures.Is that not enough?

**Art Steventon**

1) if you don't like it, don't play in the event
2) if you turn up to an event that ive (alongside others) paid good money to enjoy purely on the idea that you're going to 'protest' or 'demonstrate' by abusing the guidelines and / or being disruptive, be prepared to have an incredibly short visit..
3) expecting another version of WFB is fruitless - this IS 9th whether you like it or not
4) having a fluid points limit allows players who are a few points over to discuss with their opponent whether they're cool with it or not - I'm sure that on the day, there will be guidelines on how this is scored etc..
5) scoring - who cares? This isn't a WAAC tournament - that's pretty obvious from the guide pack already published. If you like WAAC play, go elsewhere.
6) 'I'm invested' - no, you've bought toy soldiers. Investments provide returns. Toys are to be played for. Calling it an investment just tries to mask the fact it's toy soliders.
7) AOS is dying.. Really? All I hear is how much it's reinvigorating lapsed players and bringing in new ones who were put off by the moribund feel 8th had...

TL

R? You're making a mountain out of a tiny molehill. Get over it.

**Nidzrule!**

@triplegrim AoS is the replacement for WHFB and one of the core aspects of the game that has set certain parts of the WHFB community up in arms is the lack of a balancing mechanic. There are other parts of the gaming community, some of whom have posted in this thread, consider the lack of a balancing mechanic not that much of an issue. Up to you what approach you take but clearly my view is that this is a net negative for the game.

@Art Steventon. Another poster suggested "demonstrating" at the event. Personally I think its not worth the investment and clearly ruining someone else's fun is not my idea of a good time. These events are not tournaments and WW clearly advertises these as events. I don't have a problem with winning the tournament based on favourite game votes. This is in itself a form of balancing the event and as I have said earlier - good luck to the events team and the people who attend it.

I am taking issue with the unstructured format of the event, starting off with the lack of points. Are you planning on going to either the AoS or HH event? Would be worthwhile getting your view on attendance and on how well it runs.

**Art Steventon**

I am indeed going.

What I would say is that the format must be a hit with those who want to go as the GW ticketing system crashed this morning though the level of demand, so any idea of a boycott is a non-starter.

As for the pack? I'm cool with it. I see it as a way to prepare a few lists, both at 2000 and various increments (not even structured towards 250 stages or similar), that would be fun to play WITH and AGAINST. This includes lists that have a Primarch, one with a Titan etc... that are fluffy, and fun. What I won't be doing is whining about WAAC players, or how broken lists are... I'll let others do that. Me? I'm going for 5 games that I reckon will be a laugh to play, see some friends and make some new ones.

And see some kickass armies.

**Anpu42**

The Vote For The Winner has been around since Roman Times.

My favorite example is Medieval Tournaments. The Crowd Voted on who won. Many a time it went to the Newb who got trounced in every challenge, but who showed the most Honer and Guts, not the Seasoned Knight who mercilessly beat every opponent into the ground.

To me this brings something 'Good' to the 'Game'.

I hate...sorry I LOATH the 'Tournament Gaming Circuit' and I wish I could go to this one.

**Desubot**

Smacks wrote:
Buttery Commissar wrote:
Perhaps it is your use of the word "demonstrate"?
it could be taken to mean protest, which yes, if I paid to play in a tournament have to spend two hours playing against someone who's complaining, protesting, or making a point, that's where I start to care.

What did you actually mean?
No I meant demonstrate as in "give a practical exhibition of"/"illustrate", not "protest", although it would still be making a point.

How the OP would go about doing that would depend on what exactly he takes issue with in the respective games, and if those grievances are warranted. I personally don't have a problem with AoS. It's probably the closest I've come to caring about fantasy in ~20 years.

Peeesshhh
go there

play games

get frustrated

get in fist fight.

That should get the point across.

**Smacks**

Nidzrule! wrote:
@Art Steventon. Another poster suggested "demonstrating" at the event.

No one suggested demonstrating at the event. However, a lot of people seem to be hard of understanding that. Providing a demonstration of what you are talking about, is a completely different realm of meaning to organising a civil protest.

What the hell are you talking about anyway? I've reread your first post three times now, and I still can't see anything that looks like an actual "reason" why you can't just turn up with 2000 points and play happily. If someone else turns up with 20,000 points of empty rhinos, just say "sorry, I only brought enough for a 2000 point game. That'll just have to do" -- end of discussion.

**Ravenous D**

triplegrim wrote:
Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I I hope 40k gets the same treatment.

What would that entail, excactly?

Mostly involves not having standards or a sense of self worth.

**StraightSilver**

Art Steventon wrote:
I am indeed going.

What I would say is that the format must be a hit with those who want to go as the GW ticketing system crashed this morning though the level of demand, so any idea of a boycott is a non-starter.

As for the pack? I'm cool with it. I see it as a way to prepare a few lists, both at 2000 and various increments (not even structured towards 250 stages or similar), that would be fun to play WITH and AGAINST. This includes lists that have a Primarch, one with a Titan etc... that are fluffy, and fun. What I won't be doing is whining about WAAC players, or how broken lists are... I'll let others do that. Me? I'm going for 5 games that I reckon will all be a laugh to play, see some friends and make some new ones.

And see some kickass armies.

This, so much this.

I actually really like the new format and Art has summed up why, but I respect it isn't everybody's cup of tea. But nobody is making you go, if you want structured tournament style events there are plenty to attend. It's just not something GW does any more (if they ever did).

**Nidzrule!**

Just wanted to be very clear here: I don't have a problem with a significant part of the HH event. The only issue I have for the HH event is that it is moving from a set points mark to something more unstructured. Clearly there are a number of posters who find that ok. I get that. However, if this trend moves closer to AoS then would you have an issue? More news today on the AoS event:

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/03/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms/

Some of the rules here are bonkers - if a 40k event had these AoS hallmarks, i.e. no points values at all and these types of event rules, would this still be fun?

Again do not confuse my concern as WAAC vs non-WAAC or whether its fluffy vs non-fluffy. My issue is that if AoS rules like these becoming a hallmark of a 40k event, this would be an issue, for me at least...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another question from me would be - how many of you would be attending the AoS event in Nottingham given the information that we have now?

**Kanluwen**

The rules that they are using aren't the same as what are actually in the Age of Sigmar book.

Nowhere in that book do any of the silly rules make an appearance. These are just for the event.