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I'm a bit confused.

In IA1:2nd the Macharius vulcan mega-bolter and vanquisher AP shells are listed as primary weapons. However, in IA Apocalypse the primary weapon rule is absent from their weapon profiles. Furthermore, the vulcan mega-bolter range changes from 68" to 60", respectively. Are these changes and omissions typos? Does anyone know if these issues have been addressed in a FAQ? Which is the appropriate profile to use? If this was intentional, it seems strange as the Stormlord has primary weapon, but the Macharius vulcan does not, even though they both have a "vulcan mega-bolter".

The difference between a vulcan mega-bolter with and without primary weapon is glancing AV12 to death in one vs two rounds!

Any feedback, comments, suggestions, etc. from Dakka would be great!

Thanks!

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm a bit confused.

In IA1:2nd the Macharius vulcan mega-bolter and vanquisher AP shells are listed as primary weapons. However, in IA Apocalypse the primary weapon rule is absent from their weapon profiles. Furthermore, the vulcan mega-bolter range changes from 68" to 60", respectively. Are these changes and omissions typos? Does anyone know if these issues have been addressed in a FAQ? Which is the appropriate profile to use? If this was intentional, it seems strange as the Stormlord has primary weapon, but the Macharius vulcan does not, even though they both have a "vulcan mega-bolter".

The difference between a vulcan mega-bolter with and without primary weapon is glancing AV12 to death in one vs two rounds!

Any feedback, comments, suggestions, etc. from Dakka would be great!

Thanks!

Which one is the newer book? that's the profile to use.

I tried to find more information about these weapons and failed, but I did want to point out something interesting:
The Vulcan Mega-bolter is listed in the 7th edition Rulebook, under Ranged Weapons - Bolter, and matches the changes.

Thanks for the BRB reference, I had not seen that. Based on the most current profiles, it looks like both the Macharius vulcan and vanquisher AP shells no longer have primary weapon. What a shame. I'll write GW/FW to confirm.

Thanks for the feedback.

Primary weapon used to mean it had a 4+ "save" against being blown up from a weapon destroyed result. Once the SH rules were changed this was lost as it was no longer relevant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Primary weapon used to mean it had a 4+ "save" against being blown up from a weapon destroyed result. Once the SH rules were changed this was lost as it was no longer relevant.

It is now a bonus to armour penetration; which is irrelevant on like half the primary weapons out there(they are str D)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Primary weapon used to mean it had a 4+ "save" against being blown up from a weapon destroyed result. Once the SH rules were changed this was lost as it was no longer relevant.

It is now a bonus to armour penetration; which is irrelevant on like half the primary weapons out there(they are str D)

The bonus to armour penetration is important on the non-D SH weapons, especially the vulcan mega-bolter. IMO, all the Macharius tank variants should have the primary weapon rule.


I received a response from FW concerning my OP:

-
"Hail Citizen of the Emperium!

In accordance with Imperial decree 6789123476924 I have forwarded your rules question on to the writing scriveners who will take them into account for upcoming corrective documents (FAQ's).

As a customer service team we are able to offer suggested house rules, thoughts and our own interpretation of rules but are unable to issue official rulings, this can only be done by the company design teams that publish the official rules in either PDF updates or printed and digital publications which will become available in time.

As these two books were written quite far apart from each other and in different issues of the main rules and codex I would say use the more up to date rules from the IA1 2nd Edition.

I would say this is an awesome opportunity to have a chat with you friends and see what epic house rules you can decide on till the official updates and rulings are released.

I hope this helps."
-

I thought IA1:2nd edition came out before IA Apocalypse? Am I wrong?

I'm more impressed they highlighted how official Rulings work.

If I am researching the internet correctly it seems that IA: Apocalypse was released in 2007 while Volume One was released in 2012.

I a apocalypse second edition, with the reaver on the cover, was released in 2012 as well, from memory

 Crabbit wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Primary weapon used to mean it had a 4+ "save" against being blown up from a weapon destroyed result. Once the SH rules were changed this was lost as it was no longer relevant.

It is now a bonus to armour penetration; which is irrelevant on like half the primary weapons out there(they are str D)

The bonus to armour penetration is important on the non-D SH weapons, especially the vulcan mega-bolter. IMO, all the Macharius tank variants should have the primary weapon rule.


I received a response from FW concerning my OP:

-
"Hail Citizen of the Emperium!

In accordance with Imperial decree 6789123476924 I have forwarded your rules question on to the writing scriveners who will take them into account for upcoming corrective documents (FAQ's).

As a customer service team we are able to offer suggested house rules, thoughts and our own interpretation of rules but are unable to issue official rulings, this can only be done by the company design teams that publish the official rules in either PDF updates or printed and digital publications which will become available in time.

As these two books were written quite far apart from each other and in different issues of the main rules and codex I would say use the more up to date rules from the IA1 2nd Edition.

I would say this is an awesome opportunity to have a chat with you friends and see what epic house rules you can decide on till the official updates and rulings are released.

I hope this helps."
-

I thought IA1:2nd edition came out before IA Apocalypse? Am I wrong?

My point was that the mounting will often determine the classification.

Iirc the vulcan mega bolter on the Stormlord(ig/astra Militarum shv based off the baneblade) is still a primary weapon along with all the other hull mounted main guns of those variants; 1 of those is a str D weapon, which is only a primary because of its mount.

Same goes for pretty much any weapon mounted on the arms of a titan: str D and primary. While the non-str D weapons in those mounts actually get use of the rule the D has it for no discernable rules reason(other than the one thing GW often fails at: consistency)

What do you mean by 'the mounting will determine the classification?'

Everything I said after that.

Although getting a chance to double check; the vulcan megabolter on the Stormlord is heavy, not primary.

But the rest of the big cannons on those superheavies(everything else other than baneblade and hell hammer with the hull mounted main guns) are primary weapons, including the volcano cannon which is str D(absolutely no effect); Every str D gun in escalation is a primary as are the other gun options for those vehicles.

After some sleuthing, it appears that the primary weapon rule was intentionally/mistakenly(?) removed from the vulcan mega-bolter in newer GW and FW weapon profiles. In older IA and Apocalypse editions, the Warhound, Stormlord, and Macharius vulcan mega-bolter had the primary weapon rule.

I agree that it is a bit strange to give primary weapon to Str D weapons. I imagine it is a copy/paste error.

Kommissar,
In that case, can you please quote the Rule informing us to review the mountings in order to determine the Weapon Type?

There is no rule; just a trend I have noticed.

If anyone thought I was saying the vmb should be primary; let me be clear in stating that was not the case.

I was expanding on the discussion of strange bits in the rules where it seems like GW is giving every/most weapons on certain models, in certain positions, the primary rule for some form of consistency.

Yes, the Stormlord vmb used to be a primary weapon, but so did(is still) the Volcano cannon (a D weapon); I was also pointing out that every other D weapon that is either swapped in, or swapped out of various super heavies are also primary weapons based on where they are mounted(again excluding the vmb); the thunderhawk main cannon is either a battle cannon, or a turbo laser destructor: bith are primary when the laser is D. The Warhound gun arms are all primary whether they are D or not(again: vmb ignores this)

In previous editions those primary weapons mattered in all cases based on what the rule did. The rule changed so many of them now make very little sense(the Ds)