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Imagine this situation:
An entire sector has been cut off for 10 Millenia by warp storms, leaving it to fend for itself.
During the early centuries of isolation the few chapters avaliable in the sector had to band together and pool resources to fight off an alien menace. They were eventually victorious but only a few hundred survived. To prevent the total collapse of the sector, they merged into one chapter and rebuilt. Without the gene seed tithe being sent to Mars and with the need for greater and greater numbers, they expanded past 1000 marines and continued their growth for 9 more millenia. To prevent one man from holding such power, a council was formed to rule this 'chapter' (read:legion) early on. In the 41'st Millenium this chapter is almost 40,000 strong.
In the near calamity of the first Millenia of isolation, Forgeworlds of the sector, themselves isolated from Mars, gave their full support to the chapter/s in the need for survival. Over time this loyalty became absolute. The Mechanicus began to build more and more great engines of war and lent full aid to the only Knight world in the sector to more than triple their numbers.
The Sector Fleet was expanded, as was the Astartes fleet to a strength far greater than it had ever been before the warp storms. Due to Chaos incursions (including deamon which is obviously going to be a bone of contention later on), a couple of awakened necron tomb worlds and the need to purge the ork menace from the sector, the imperial guard forces in the sector were increased by hundreds of millions provided by the extensive Hive Worlds of the system.
Whilst the number of Agri worlds were insufficient to at first provide for the population of the system, entire Hives were given over to indoor agricultural harvests and hydro plants.
As the Imperial forces became stronger and victories became common place, more reasources were made avaliable to focus upon defense systems around planets and entire sytems, making the sector into a multitude of fortresses second only to Sol, Cadia and the most powerful Forgeworlds and Hive worlds in the galaxy.
6 millenia into the isolation, the Mechanicus of the forgeworlds became slightly more liberal in its allowing of the advancement of technology. Not to a great extent, but enough to allow technological advancements to creep forward at a pedestrian pace in comparison to the slow decline affecting the Imperium outside the warpstorms. Over 4 millenia of advancement (albeit slow) compared to degredation, has put this isolated sector noticably ahead of the rest of the imperium in its technological advancement.
The Ecclesiarchy, while still strong has lost much of the power it once knew as part of the wider imperium. It is still the spiritual backbone of the sector, but it has taken on different roles to what it once was. It is the first line of defence against chaos taint, and in being so it is the organisation which now sanctions psykers and its priests are sequested to sanctioned psykers to watch over them for any taint, a bolt shell always ready if in any doubt.
Psykers are rounded up and processed by the few Black Ships that were stranded in the sector, since they can no longer be taken to earth only the strongest and most 'pure' are allowed to live and be taken to be sanctioned by the Ecclesiarchy. A side effect of the proximity of the warp storm is a greater number of psykers being born, and also an increased number of Blanks. The latter a great help to the Cullexus training temple hidden in an astoroid belt in the sector. With no word from the High Lords after the isolation, the usually secretive Cullexus temple has been working with the ruling council for many millenia, supplying many Cullexus assassins to aid the armies of the sector. The unusual glut of Blanks (in comparison to the normal 1 in a trillion), has meant the Cullexus have been ideal in helping prevent deamonic incursions and hunt down rogue psykers.
An inquisitor has not operated in the sector for over 9000 years, simce the last inquisitor was executed for almost losing the sector in its first few centuries of isolation due to his arrogance and incompetance.
The ruling council is made up of elected representatives from the astartes council, the mechanicus, the imperial guard and the administratum. Over 10 millenia this ruling body has made the sector into a strong, secure refuge of humanity as efficient in its admistration as that of Ultimar.

The warp storms have abated, contact is made once again with the Imperium. The sector announces its loyalty and wishes to aid the imperium in its struggle against the enemies that are assaulting it from all sides and within.
There is just one blip. Both the ruling council and council of astartes refuse to allow the sectors 'chapter' to be split down into 40 codex astartes chapters. On this point they are unmovable.

How does the imperium react?

(Bearing in mind that due to the Tyranid threat, Ork Waaaghs, 13th Black Crusade, and the awakeing of more and more tomb worlds that they are struggling to round up enough forces to crush the small problem of the Tau Empire).

IOM lets them get themselves killed by deploying them to the EoT.

Nice solution. But would they make the same mistake that they did with the founding (13th? 21st? Cant remember which) that they sent into the eye of terror to end up losing the vast majority of them to chaos? Losing as in corrupted.

Probably would nuke them all. It's a bit too close to brighthammer for the grimdark IOM. The mechanicum wouldn't take too kindly to what had gone on so regardless of what the rest of of the imperium does they'll probably try and silence them themselves. Protecting their IP and all that.

A side effect of a warp storm would be more like everyone (or lots) turning heretic. Having killed their inquisition guys and trying to be progressive would be more than enough evidence for most imperialists.

All the other threats don't really matter as the imperiums still got its secret weapon.

Eh. The IOM isn't know for adaption or learning.

If they pay their tithes, and don't mess with Imperium's interests, they will go largely unnoticed.
Someone in the Inquisition may give them a stare, but that's about it, unless there's absolute proof of them being corrupt, or otherwise threat to Imperium.

For example, Huron went pretty much unnoticed until he withheld the Imperial Tithes. After that, he went under Inquisitorial investigation, and it wasn't until he killed the said Inquisitors, and declared independence of the Badab Sector that he got the wrath of the Imperium upon himself.

As long as the Imperium gets it's tithes, they don't care.

This is shockingly mary sue fanfiction. Just saying

It's the whole point. Something prospers and shows light in the dark... then it meets the imperium.

What's more grimdark:
- A scenario where a sector is already living under oppression, then re integrates with the oppression of the imperium.
Or
-A sector which has known progression, strength and security which then all gets blown away when it encounters the imperium?

#2.

The IOM knows what's going on in the universe, and knows that crushing all your hopes and dreams is the only way to ensure survival. Continuing to be happy will result in either execution, or death by heresy.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
If they pay their tithes, and don't mess with Imperium's interests, they will go largely unnoticed.
Someone in the Inquisition may give them a stare, but that's about it, unless there's absolute proof of them being corrupt, or otherwise threat to Imperium.

For example, Huron went pretty much unnoticed until he withheld the Imperial Tithes. After that, he went under Inquisitorial investigation, and it wasn't until he killed the said Inquisitors, and declared independence of the Badab Sector that he got the wrath of the Imperium upon himself.

As long as the Imperium gets it's tithes, they don't care.

Exactly. And even his refusal to pay tithes was a political ploy or an act of pride. Militarily he could have easily sent the tithe (the astral claws were up to 3-5,000 marines strong so he was generating geneseed 3-5x faster than a regular chapter). I'm sure people they fought alongside noticed "Man, that's a lot of Astral Claws" or "All these PDF guys seem to basically be part of the Claws TO&E, and why do the astartes have all these IG style artillery batteries?" but while the Imperium was getting their tithe and he was killing xenos, nobody cared.

Maybe the Imperium should have let him be, since now there are about 50,000 red corsairs and they are more dangerous than the Astral Claws ever were.

Idk, seems a bit to marry sue. I get wanting your chapter to be a bit more noblebright, but this is just to far. fortifications second only to Sol and Cadia is insane, since one is under constant siege, and the other has dealt with 40+ millenniums of war, and been fortified by both Dorn and the big E. Part of the reason that space marines are kept at smaller populations now is in part to deal with gene-seed degradation from gathering so much, so quickly in order to maintain strength, a huge problem for the legions at the time. However, It's not an all to bad idea for the founding of multiple chapters, drop the numbers down to a more reasonable level, i.e. TOPS 15,000- 20,000 marines, and make sure the "correct", in-fluff actions would be taken. With constant warp storms and daemons, a decent chunk of these marines would fall to chaos, and so would some part of the council ruling it, making for some neat intrigue.

what would probably happen by the current fluff, in my mind:
the ad. mech. would swoop in and beat the ever-living crap out of those forge worlds for being to loosy-goosy with their tech, and probably kill/ servitorize them for techno heresy, leading to likely war. The inquisition would go nuts checking for heresy probably find some and kill it, and if the marine chapter was lucky, they would be split into 15 - 20 different chapters, and probably for the most part be sent and a penitence crusade or like wise punished for over stepping their bounds so much, if the inquisition believed the loyalists didn't know about the corruption. Huron got away with the larger numbers for the first half because the relatively low number of marines, 5,000 is MUCH lower than 40,000, the fact that he was sitting on a giant whole to the warp, and that he was a well respected hero, it didn't cause much alarm. With your idea of them refusing to split their legion into chapters, and the council obviously trying to continue to hold power in this way, they become an enemy of the Imperium, and are branded as such, and due to the sheer number of marines, would probably be the thing that kills the Imperium if they tried to deal with it, which they would because that's a massive threat.

And that's where one problem become really evident: the "chapter" is too important. Everyone who plays 40k, at one point or another, wants their dudes to be the one who fixes everything, but keeping that in check is part of making good fluff for your chapter. It's the same concept as the blood angels successor who solves the black rage, or the chapter/inquisitor who sticks it to the man, saves civilians, and never kills innocents. It just doesn't necessarily fit the fluff. When you make a back story for your dude, you can make them cool, can give them tons of battle honors, or maybe the killed off some unknown race, but they shouldn't do to much going against, or fighting preset fluff, or it makes them seem like an army of draigos.

Sorry for the wall of text, but my 2 cents.

No no that's fine. I want to hear what everyone thinks would happen next. I'm not doing this for any chapter I want to collect, just wondering the opinions of how it would turn out if such a thing happened. I've always been intrigued by the idea of a large sector being cut off for thousands of years and actually progressing before being re-introduced to the Imperium that they know in legend.

Imo the most grimdark thing that could happen is that the imperium spends a gargantuan amount of energy crushing what could be their brightest hope. 10 millienia is a bit long thinking about it as it is around the same time as the heresy... so maybe 6 millenia instead.

I'm thinking if someone noticed, they would be ordered to split. If they did not split, they would be branded traitors and slaughtered. That's what people who disobey orders are: traitors.

The Imperium doesn't care how long it would take out how bloody it would be - traitors are not to be tolerated.

And if the legion were willing to kill humans rather than split, well they are just Chaos light anyway, and they had it coming.

Thats exactly what I imagine the Imperiums view would be personally. But would they have the resources in the present setting to a achieve it?

My thought exactly. They can't take out the Tau and liberate the humans that have been pressed into service there. How would they have the resources to take out this section even if they wanted to?

Chimerically splicing the geneseed of different Chapters together also doesn't turn out well, in most cases. Normally, it causes all kinds of weird mutations in the organs, not to mention all sorts of mental imbalances (paranoia, delusions, strange and deviant philosophies, libertarianism, communism, etc.)

But, yeah, this could not be a Legion (those were all accounted for at the end of the Heresy), but could be a group of Chapters spread over a section of space.

Problem is, in a Warp Storm, this region of space has no means of getting materials from Planet A to Planet B unless they are in extremely close proximity (such as the same star-system). So there's not really a means for these Chapters to grow to Legion strength. The manufacturing base just isn't there, unless there's the perfect confluence of a Forge World, an extremely-rich Mining World, several Agri-Worlds and at least 1 World each to supply each of these Chapters with sufficient recruits to maintain their ranks.

It's said that, out of 100 men, none of them may qualify to be Space Marines. While that doesn't tell us a whole lot, it does imply that genetic compatibility and the mental and physical traits are relatively rare.

Of course, assuming all of these things were true and came to pass, they'd have a choice to either join the Imperium or be destroyed. That's how the Imperium functions.

Tbh, I think your 'enclosed sector' would be the perfect environment for an Umbra Infestation.



Backstory:

Let's say for the last 10k years, this merged chapter has been battling a constant war against a massive Umbra Population.
The Forgeworlds HAD to improvise to help combat Umbra attacks that enveloped whole planets.

The outer edges of the sector (the ones that would have been corrupted by the warp storms) are lost within the first couple millenia to the Umbra. The Chapter was only able to successfully defend the central areas.

Simply due to lack of numbers, The Chapter was unable to go on the offensive and so the Umbra Population spiraled out of control; slowly darkening world after world.
In response, the Chapter started to aggressively recruit as much as they could with the geneseed they didn't have to hand over in tithes. Their rate of growth was extremely low, what with high casualty rates and lower probabilty of geneseed recovery against the Umbra but they did manage to increase their numbers and stabilize their control on a few core subsectors.

Their experience against the Umbra is unparalleled within the Imperium of man, and they've developed many tactics and technologies (with the help of the Forgeworlds) to hold back if not defeat the Umbra. Along the way they've had to deal with a few other minor xenos threats such as small Ork Waaghs and Dark Eldar raids from webway portals (the Dark Eldar would love a small, cut-off segment of the Imperium of Man for them to raid).




M41

By the time the Warp Storms abate in M41, the Chapter is sitting at 8,000 strong and is entrenched in worlds specially developed to defend against the Umbra menace; Night never falls on these planets due to humongous Tower Beacons that light up the surface indefinitely and any concerted Umbra attack would be repulsed by extremely powerful Lighthouses and specially equipped Naval Forces. If any assault does make planetfall, the Chapter would quickly respond in force with marines specially armed by Umbra-defeating tech invented by the Forgeworlds. It is quite an efficient system.

Imagine the IoM's surprise to find all of this in a sector long declared lost to warp storms and swarming with vast hordes of Umbra.
First, they would be suspicious of Chaos corruption and whilst they would be cleared of those suspicions, the investigations would uncover not only their breach of the Codex Astartes but also of the Techno-heresy committed by the Forgeworlds.

The IoM would demand that:
1. The Chapter be immediately split into 8 new ones (refusal would be Excommunication and sanction by Minotaurs if the Chapter didn't leave)
2. The 8 new chapters must relinquish all non-codex technology and weaponry (again, refusal would not be wise)
3. The 8 new chapters would be assigned new posts, spread far apart across the galaxy so that they couldn't communicate or work with each other (to prevent any potential uprising)
3. The Forgeworlds submit to the Adeptus Mechanicus (which would destroy all the new technology and purge anyone on those forgeworlds who complained)
4. Unsanctioned technology that had been built across the sector (the lighthouses + beacons) would be destroyed and the naval forces would be refitted.
5. Tithes dating back 10,000 years to be paid in full (which would bankrupt the worlds that remained, destroying their economies along with other massive ramifications for the local populace)
6. Regiments be raised from the populated planets and handed over to the war effort. (This plus the Tithes demand would ruin what remains of the sector).

After which they'd probably assign another Chapter to defend the sector. One that has no ties to the local people and so wouldn't have any alternate allegiances.

Really, the question is... what would the Chapter do? Would they comply with the IoM's demands or not?

It's not breaching the codex astartes that mattered, it's the inability to send tithe (that's the worlds' duties, not a concern of the Imperium) and obvious legion building that will cause issue to the Chapters.

First, the Imperium's opinion on the Codex Astartes in general: in 5th Edition Space Marine Codex, it is said that "The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could." ("The Codex Chapters". p9. print)
and in 6th it is said that "With the passage of centuries, some Chapters have strayed from the strict letter of the Codex, introducing unqiue variations on its teachings but remaining broadly faithful to Guilliman's basic principles. Furthermore, the codex has been renalysed, reinterpreted and modified countless times over the centuries." ("The Codex Chapters". P9)
So the Imperium or at least the High Lords of Terra never had any problem with codex-deviancy, rather they enforce the parts where it will make it so that "Never again would one man be able to command the awesome, terrifying power of a Space Marine Legion." (Codex: Space Marines. "The Codex Astartes". 6th Edition. P8). In current lore, with Black Templars measured at only ~8000 marines, 40,000 marines is indeed legion building.

So, Ok, there's legion building going on, that needs to be dealt with. If the "chapter" will not break down into smaller chapters then there will likely be a reckoning. An inquisitor, or an enclave of, would likely take matters into their own hands, either through politicking or assassinations to dwindling the "chapter" down. If all else fails, there will be a sector-wide war. 40,000 some astartes are indeed valuable assets, but the value plummets quickly when the assets aren't in the imperium's own hands. Between another near-legion sized rebellion and 40,000++ dead astartes, the Imperium would gladly choose the latter.

Poly Ranger wrote:
No no that's fine. I want to hear what everyone thinks would happen next. I'm not doing this for any chapter I want to collect, just wondering the opinions of how it would turn out if such a thing happened. I've always been intrigued by the idea of a large sector being cut off for thousands of years and actually progressing before being re-introduced to the Imperium that they know in legend.

Imo the most grimdark thing that could happen is that the imperium spends a gargantuan amount of energy crushing what could be their brightest hope. 10 millienia is a bit long thinking about it as it is around the same time as the heresy... so maybe 6 millenia instead.

You do realize that the IoM is composed of hundreds of Sectors that each have just as much power as this single one does, right? If all else fails, the IoM could just drown those 40 thousand Astartes in the bodies of 400 million Guardsmen, and still have a few billion to spare.

 IGtR= wrote:
This is shockingly mary sue fanfiction. Just saying

This.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
If they pay their tithes, and don't mess with Imperium's interests, they will go largely unnoticed.
Someone in the Inquisition may give them a stare, but that's about it, unless there's absolute proof of them being corrupt, or otherwise threat to Imperium.

For example, Huron went pretty much unnoticed until he withheld the Imperial Tithes. After that, he went under Inquisitorial investigation, and it wasn't until he killed the said Inquisitors, and declared independence of the Badab Sector that he got the wrath of the Imperium upon himself.

As long as the Imperium gets it's tithes, they don't care.

This fellow sums it up fairly well, the Imperium doesn't really give much of a toss until the resources aren't coming in.

Even the secessionists in the Spinward Front didn't face significant opposition until the Severan Dominate outright denounced the High Lords of Terra.

 lcmiracle wrote:
In current lore, with Black Templars measured at only ~8000 marines

In old lore they were given an upper estimate of five to six thousand.
In current lore they're at slightly over a thousand.

Animus wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
In current lore, with Black Templars measured at only ~8000 marines

In old lore they were given an upper estimate of five to six thousand.
In current lore they're at slightly over a thousand.

It's Ultramarine propaganda.

They actually number 10's of thousands #marysueheadcannon

Animus wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
In current lore, with Black Templars measured at only ~8000 marines

In old lore they were given an upper estimate of five to six thousand.
In current lore they're at slightly over a thousand.

Old lore gave an upper estimate of about three thousand (3000).

Current lore gives them an estimate of about fifteen hundred (1500).

My first thought was this is simply too noblebright. Sure, you need some light to show how dark it actually is, but that's why you have Lamenters and Salamanders. This seems just OTT.

 Psienesis wrote:
Chimerically splicing the geneseed of different Chapters together also doesn't turn out well, in most cases. Normally, it causes all kinds of weird mutations in the organs, not to mention all sorts of mental imbalances (paranoia, delusions, strange and deviant philosophies, libertarianism, communism, etc.)

It's said that, out of 100 men, none of them may qualify to be Space Marines. While that doesn't tell us a whole lot, it does imply that genetic compatibility and the mental and physical traits are relatively rare.

Problem is, in a Warp Storm, this region of space has no means of getting materials from Planet A to Planet B unless they are in extremely close proximity (such as the same star-system). So there's not really a means for these Chapters to grow to Legion strength. The manufacturing base just isn't there, unless there's the perfect confluence of a Forge World, an extremely-rich Mining World, several Agri-Worlds and at least 1 World each to supply each of these Chapters with sufficient recruits to maintain their ranks.

I think calling political viewpoints a mental imbalance is a bit far, but otherwise Psiensis is on point.

The chimeric geneseed would be a problem, along with the size of the "Chapter" and the technological advancements. They'd probably execute the tech-priests for Heresy (there's a reason for the research bans), the Chapter would at the very best be broken up into 40 Chapters. However, the logistics of supplying equipment for 40 Chapters is pretty hefty, so I wouldn't imagine the Chapter would be well-equipped, especially with the Warp storm effectively limiting it to one system.

I'd suggest instead that you make it one sector that kept fighting to hold of Dark Eldar/Orks or another species, but eventually won. The current solar system is eventually relatively well-supplied. Let's say they have a very good prime planet, like Terra, capable of producing equipment, manpower, and food. Now they have been able to harvest the resources from the other nearby planets and have been able to fortify the system in preparation for future attacks. Furthermore, the Terra-like planet serves as a recruitment world for a Chapter descendant of either the Imperial Fists, UMs, or DAs. Additionally, a company from a chapter descended from one of the other Legions were also caught there, and they have also tried keeping their numbers up. So, in essence, they are a model solar system, but while still lacking anything available to Cadia or Terra, they are still very capable.

Then upon the Warp storm dying down, they realise Hive Fleet Kraken is headed straight for them, due to suddenly realising there was a latent Genestealer infestation.

That would be grimdark.

That was a joke, because the Imperium is a totalitarian state, where to even contemplate change gets you put on a watch-list.

"To begin reform is to begin revolution" and all.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Animus wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
In current lore, with Black Templars measured at only ~8000 marines

In old lore they were given an upper estimate of five to six thousand.
In current lore they're at slightly over a thousand.

Old lore gave an upper estimate of about three thousand (3000).

Current lore gives them an estimate of about fifteen hundred (1500).

Oh? Where about was that? Here's my sources anyway.

Old

Codex Black Templars, page 8 wrote:If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total

New

The Eternal Crusader, chapter 6 wrote:The Eternal Crusader was vast. Far bigger than most battle-barges, it dated from a time when a force of Space Marines numbered in the tens of thousands, not mere hundreds. The Black Templars Chapter was slightly larger than most, but even they all gathered together would barely tax the capabilities of the vessel. With the mere two hundred brothers of Helbrecht’s Void Crusade aboard, just under a fifth of the Black Templars total strength, a large portion of Sigismund’s ship was empty.

 Psienesis wrote:
That was a joke, because the Imperium is a totalitarian state, where to even contemplate change gets you put on a watch-list.

"To begin reform is to begin revolution" and all.

Gotcha, but I'm pretty sure they'd be fine with any sort of government as long as the tithes kept coming!

Animus wrote:

Old

Codex Black Templars, page 8 wrote:If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total

New

The Eternal Crusader, chapter 6 wrote:The Eternal Crusader was vast. Far bigger than most battle-barges, it dated from a time when a force of Space Marines numbered in the tens of thousands, not mere hundreds. The Black Templars Chapter was slightly larger than most, but even they all gathered together would barely tax the capabilities of the vessel. With the mere two hundred brothers of Helbrecht’s Void Crusade aboard, just under a fifth of the Black Templars total strength, a large portion of Sigismund’s ship was empty.

And if we take a leaf out of the BRB's book, and say that specific (C:BT) trumps generalistic (BL publications), we can assume that the Templars have 5-6k marines.

Ehm, are you bad at math?

200 Marines is 1/5th of the BT total strength. That means there's 1000 Black Templars.