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2015/08/06 15:59:11
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
ChazSexington wrote: Gotcha, but I'm pretty sure they'd be fine with any sort of government as long as the tithes kept coming!
Almost any sort of government. As long as the tithes come in and the people venerate the Emperor things are good.
But I do have to agree that the Space Marines in the sector would be asked to split up. The BT are over the limit, and some other Chapters too, but they don't really operate together. The BT are split into Crusades of about company size and SW operate as Great Companies the largest of which is about 180 or so strong. The DA have their successors in the command circuit and could form up to a Legion again but they're not doing such things without a really good reason. But a whole Sector under the protection of what is effectively a Legion? No way that's going to fly.
As for the AdMech I don't really agree on civil war. More likely the local Forgeworlds would be required to send in reports on exactly what tech they've modified, what has been leased out and why. Some things would probably be deemed heretical, but Forgeworlds are quite independent and like it so. None of the traditional ones is going to support intervention if the locals can put things in order by themself - that would give precedent to interfere in their own affairs at a later point!
2015/08/06 16:29:32
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Codex Black Templars, page 8 wrote:If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total
New
The Eternal Crusader, chapter 6 wrote:The Eternal Crusader was vast. Far bigger than most battle-barges, it dated from a time when a force of Space Marines numbered in the tens of thousands, not mere hundreds. The Black Templars Chapter was slightly larger than most, but even they all gathered together would barely tax the capabilities of the vessel. With the mere two hundred brothers of Helbrecht’s Void Crusade aboard, just under a fifth of the Black Templars total strength, a large portion of Sigismund’s ship was empty.
And if we take a leaf out of the BRB's book, and say that specific (C:BT) trumps generalistic (BL publications), we can assume that the Templars have 5-6k marines.
This. BT will always be 5k Marines, in my mind. BECAUSE CODEX!!!
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2015/08/06 18:25:48
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Their last 2 Codices have basically made the BT a Codex-adherent Chapter that only has problems with "rogue" and "Xeno" psykers, not psykers in general.
This makes them one of the most-retconned Chapters currently in existence.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/08/06 19:36:24
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Doesn't mean I counted wrong. And those are Codex Marines books, rather than specifically BT books. Which would still make my logic valid, if a little asynchronous with the order of publishing.
2015/08/06 19:52:29
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Psienesis wrote: Their last 2 Codices have basically made the BT a Codex-adherent Chapter that only has problems with "rogue" and "Xeno" psykers, not psykers in general.
Ofc, even before the retcon they would have had to be comfortable with having Navigators to steer their ships and Astropaths to route their messages. But then again, these two are Emperor-approved and even Emperor-bound in the case of Astropaths. Astropaths don't have the same pull as Navigator Families, ofc - the BT could probably treat these badly. But a Navigator is the absolute master of his designated area of the ship (his apartment and the Navigation Tower) and not even the ship's Captain, much less a Chapter Master enters to speak with the Navigator without his permission. It just isn't done unless you wish to be without a Navigator. These Families are important enought that a Navigator could shoot an Inquisitor in the middle of the street and get off with doing 20 years as the navigator of a garbage scow.
Having a prohibition on using Combat Psykers is a whole different thing IMO. I'd certainly see a BT list in a more favorable light if they didn't bring any psykers. And I guess that is what their thing was supposed to be - Astropaths and Navigators do one thing, they do it well and the Emperor approves. Combat Psykers might get funny ideas and try something horrible that rips open the canvas of Reality and lets daemons in. Better be vary of such things.
2016/09/06 03:28:59
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Navigators aren't even technically Psykers, just weird mutants with a third eye that lets them perceive the Warp (or show it to other people who look at said eye), but *quite* vital to the Imperium, yes, and they know it.
But, otherwise, yeah, I agree. If you want a "pure" BT list, don't bring any psykers, or house-rule your psychic allies as "CTA" type allies. It's just not reflected in the current fluff about the Chapter... probably because to do so would really require their own Codex, which GW seems loathe to do.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/08/06 19:59:57
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Indeed, and the reason for that was to (IMO) avoid writing a Codex for them but, also, they seem to be lining up the "good guys" (in the realm of Space Marines) as Codex-adherent and "bad guys" as not... with the maverick example of the Space Wolves as the outsider punks who are breaking all the rules, but they get results!, chief as the obvious "too cool for school" exception.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/08/06 20:18:16
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
I dont think Mary Sue means what most people in this thread thinks it means. Noblebright it is though.
The sector would just be swallowed up by the IoM as long as they paid their tithes. The question of the 40k strong astartes would take centuries to respond to in the IoM contexts, by that time ork whaags, DE, CSM and tyranids would have shattered the noblebrightness of this world anyway.
Without inquisitors they would be extremely vulnerable to genestealer cults, alpha legion and chaos cults.
Let the galaxy burn.
2015/08/07 12:36:49
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Codex Black Templars, page 8 wrote:If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total
New
The Eternal Crusader, chapter 6 wrote:The Eternal Crusader was vast. Far bigger than most battle-barges, it dated from a time when a force of Space Marines numbered in the tens of thousands, not mere hundreds. The Black Templars Chapter was slightly larger than most, but even they all gathered together would barely tax the capabilities of the vessel. With the mere two hundred brothers of Helbrecht’s Void Crusade aboard, just under a fifth of the Black Templars total strength, a large portion of Sigismund’s ship was empty.
As bizarre as it might sound, the difference in these reports could be explained somewhat by the significant attrition rate. Being eternally on crusade and aggressive in tactics, Black Templars must suffer casualties beyond even the expected amount for Astartes.
At the conclusion of their Crusade it's likely they go through a huge swathe of recruitment in the planets they subdued, replenishing their numbers and accounting for the massive fluctuation in strength reports.
Psienesis wrote: I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.
"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad
2015/08/07 12:48:22
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
There are 2 ways around the warpstorms engulfing the entire sector rather than just its outer edges.
Firstly, it could be a sector on the tip of a spiral. The warpstorms are therefore between it and the rest of the galaxy, rather than actually in the sector itself.
Secondly there could be an ancient necron 'moon' device at the centre of the sector, similar to the pylons on Cadia but much stronger. Completely preventing encroachment of the warp in the centre of the sector and severly weakening it on its edges.
Otto Weston - I really like the sound of the fluff you have created there. Whether the same sector or a different one, I am just really into the idea of a sector being cut off for thousands of years then being 're-introduced'.
2015/08/07 12:55:45
Subject: Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
Codex Black Templars, page 8 wrote:If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total
New
The Eternal Crusader, chapter 6 wrote:The Eternal Crusader was vast. Far bigger than most battle-barges, it dated from a time when a force of Space Marines numbered in the tens of thousands, not mere hundreds. The Black Templars Chapter was slightly larger than most, but even they all gathered together would barely tax the capabilities of the vessel. With the mere two hundred brothers of Helbrecht’s Void Crusade aboard, just under a fifth of the Black Templars total strength, a large portion of Sigismund’s ship was empty.
As bizarre as it might sound, the difference in these reports could be explained somewhat by the significant attrition rate. Being eternally on crusade and aggressive in tactics, Black Templars must suffer casualties beyond even the expected amount for Astartes.
At the conclusion of their Crusade it's likely they go through a huge swathe of recruitment in the planets they subdued, replenishing their numbers and accounting for the massive fluctuation in strength reports.
That makes sense. What with the BT going fethcrazy in every fight, there's probably a lot of lists that look like this:
Name: Brother ________ Type of Death: Excess Zealotry
2015/08/08 11:52:21
Subject: Re:Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
The Astra Telepathica receives communication from a long lost sector. "Dear Terra, we can finally reach you after thousands of years of darkness and constant assault by the armies of chaos. But we're good. No corruption, we're fine, really. Trust us." The transmission is immediately marked with the highest secrecy. All astropaths that received the message and menials that handed the message up the command chain are immediately killed. Anyone they talked with after handling the message is also either immediately killed or mind wiped, and the message goes directly into the hands of the head of the Astra Telepathica. All communication with that sector is cut off except by a designated high level Astropath. That Astropath may or may not be killed and replaced after each communication with the sector. Anyone who violates the cut off is instantly killed.
The head of the Telepathica brings the message to the High Lords of Terra who meet to discuss. A small expeditionary fleet of the closest Adaptus Astartes (or Grey Knights) are dispatched headed by an Ordo Hereticus Inquistor, along with high ranking members of the Adaptus Ministratum, and Adaptus Mechanicus.
The first meeting is tense, but cordial between the Council and the members of the Imperium. The Astartes have a second meeting without the Inquisitor present, although the inquisition is secretly listening in on the meeting anyway. They have a separate meeting to discuss how the Astartes of the council survived and let them share tales or heroism. How this meeting goes depends largely on which Astartes Chapter the IoM sent but regardless the overall tone is warm, celebratory to welcome back brothers, but cautious. The Inquistor's mission is clear and understood by all. This is the biggest test the fledgling empire must pass. They know the reason inquisitors exist, and they know in the outside world the absolute power that they hold over entire sectors. The Inquisitor begins with interviews of all members of the council while the Adaptus Ministratum begin pouring over the records of the Council. Things are tense, communications are short, and meetings are largely one-sided and semi-hostile. Ultimately no taint is found. The fledgling empire has been forced to adapt as best as possible to keep the Emperor’s light bright and alive in the sector. The Inquisitor and Adaptus Astartes head back to terra but leave a contingent of Adaptus Ministorum and Mechanicus behind to begin the integration of the core parts of the sector back into the larger IoM. The Inquistion reports back to the High Lords that there is some small heresy do to their extreme circumstances, but the sector is rich in resources and technology. So long as they’re willing to conform there should be no need for purging the sector. The biggest concern to the Inquisition, and the High Lords of Terra is the large force of single Space Marine Chapter and the marginalization of the Adaptus Ministorum.
The High Lords order an immediate tithe of geneseed and send members of the Eccesiarch, and Mechanicum, and Minstratrum back to oversee the collection of the geneseed, the strengthening of the Church, and the breakup of the Council’s space marine force. The Council’s navy are also immediately ordered to tithe ships and crew to the greater IoM.
The Council must now make some tough decisions. For thousands of years they’ve wanted to get back to mankind, but now mankind is suddenly wanting to take their ships, their geneseed, and tell them that the Eccesiarch must be re-established. Their world is getting turned upside down and the forces that have defended them for so long are being weakened. The Council must decide do they bend to the will of the Imperium or do they tell the Imperium “You’re doing it wrong.” One of two things will happen.
The Council submits and begins tithing its navy, its population, and its resources back to the IoM. The Ecclesiarch re-asserts its control and a generation of fanatics begins to sprout up causing religious riots and mini “cleansings” of the faithless. Slowly the Council’s power is reduced as members of the Ministratum from Earth are given political appointments to the easy to govern paradise worlds of the former Council. Their governance is lackluster and politically corrupt causing a slow slide into loss of tithes which result in the further oppression of the populace to make up for it. The Council Space Marines experience a purge from the Grey Knights, and break up into chapters with one chapter remaining in this sector and the foundings dispersed through the galaxy. They gain renown for their tenacity and ability to fight Chaos and Chaos Space Marines.
The Council resists. They happily hand over their plentiful money, and resources, but hold off on tithing their naval ships, defense forces and resist the breakup of the essential space marines which have so gallantly held back the tide of Chaos for thousands of years. The IoM is at first accepting and they try to negotiate a smaller tithe of the naval ships and defense forces. They are however insistent on the breakup of the Space Marines. The IoM and High Lords become worrisome at the lack of dedication to the IoM. While the tithes that are coming in are good. This sector is refusing to address their heresies and embrace the help of the outside world by sending their forces to where the IoM needs them. The Inquisition is again dispatched along with Space Wolves to enforce the will of Terra and the breakup of the Council’s defense forces. Tensions are high, but Terra is a force of nature not to be denied. A small skirmish breaks out in space that quickly escalates resulting in the loss of the Terrain fleet and Space Wolf ships.
The Council and the entire sector are declared Excommunicato Traitoris and Exterminatus is ordered. The entire sector must be purged. The Imperial Navy and all nearby Space Marine Chapters, the largest force of which are Space Wolves are ordered to assist. The Council and their Space Marines are compared to the Tyrant of Badab and the Badab War in scale of their heresy. All answer the call. The Council purge their planet of members of the IoM and prepare their defenses. The battles last for months with early success from the council’s superior technology. But, the IoM is a force of nature. Their numbers are infinite. Constant reinforcements arrive. More and more naval forces, entire Space Marine Chapters come to heed the call of support from their brethren already locked in the conflict. The greater numbers begin to take a toll. The first few border worlds are subjected to Exterminatus. The Council Navy and Space Marine forces begin to pull back to the core worlds exacting a heavy toll of the IoM as they retreat but the result is inevitable. There is no denying the will of the Imperium. The Council knows there is no surrender now. Exterminatus has been declared. Surrender means death for the trillions of its citizens. They become desperate allowing their psykers and Mechanicum greater, and greater leeway in order to find some way to turn the tide of battle, to get to parley with the IoM. Warp Incursions and possessions begin in some battles. Evidence of their corruption. A large group of powerful Council Psykers falsely believe they can call in and control a warp storm to destroy the IoM navy. Their foolish actions cause an eruption in the warp which does cause massive losses on the IoM forces, however they quickly loose control of the storm as it expands and becomes a reality bending tear that swallows the core worlds and most of the sector.
The IoM forces retreat and set up a permanent blockade surrounding the warp rift. The warp anomaly is designated Council’s Folly and their war of heresy ends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/08 11:57:24
2015/08/08 13:07:09
Subject: Re:Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
The Wolves and the Inquisition? Good one. Maybe the Minotaurs or the Space Sharks.
Why would the Space Marines greet them in such a friendly way? Why would they celebrate potential renegades, heretics or chaos worshippers?
No taint? At all? Really?
This is still way too special snowflakey for me. Hell why not have them take over control of the IoM as they're clearly doing such a great job. I don't think that this thing can be saved really. It just feels too fanfic like
P.S. Its Adeptus not Adaptus.
Cheers
Ig
2015/08/08 17:20:01
Subject: Re:Hypothetical breach of the Codex Astartes... what does the Imperium do?
disdamn wrote: The Astra Telepathica receives communication from a long lost sector. "Dear Terra, we can finally reach you after thousands of years of darkness and constant assault by the armies of chaos. But we're good. No corruption, we're fine, really. Trust us." The transmission is immediately marked with the highest secrecy. All astropaths that received the message and menials that handed the message up the command chain are immediately killed. Anyone they talked with after handling the message is also either immediately killed or mind wiped, and the message goes directly into the hands of the head of the Astra Telepathica. All communication with that sector is cut off except by a designated high level Astropath. That Astropath may or may not be killed and replaced after each communication with the sector. Anyone who violates the cut off is instantly killed.
The head of the Telepathica brings the message to the High Lords of Terra who meet to discuss. A small expeditionary fleet of the closest Adaptus Astartes (or Grey Knights) are dispatched headed by an Ordo Hereticus Inquistor, along with high ranking members of the Adaptus Ministratum, and Adaptus Mechanicus.
The first meeting is tense, but cordial between the Council and the members of the Imperium. The Astartes have a second meeting without the Inquisitor present, although the inquisition is secretly listening in on the meeting anyway. They have a separate meeting to discuss how the Astartes of the council survived and let them share tales or heroism. How this meeting goes depends largely on which Astartes Chapter the IoM sent but regardless the overall tone is warm, celebratory to welcome back brothers, but cautious. The Inquistor's mission is clear and understood by all. This is the biggest test the fledgling empire must pass. They know the reason inquisitors exist, and they know in the outside world the absolute power that they hold over entire sectors.
The Inquisitor begins with interviews of all members of the council while the Adaptus Ministratum begin pouring over the records of the Council. Things are tense, communications are short, and meetings are largely one-sided and semi-hostile.
Ultimately no taint is found. The fledgling empire has been forced to adapt as best as possible to keep the Emperor’s light bright and alive in the sector. The Inquisitor and Adaptus Astartes head back to terra but leave a contingent of Adaptus Ministorum and Mechanicus behind to begin the integration of the core parts of the sector back into the larger IoM. The Inquistion reports back to the High Lords that there is some small heresy do to their extreme circumstances, but the sector is rich in resources and technology. So long as they’re willing to conform there should be no need for purging the sector. The biggest concern to the Inquisition, and the High Lords of Terra is the large force of single Space Marine Chapter and the marginalization of the Adaptus Ministorum.
The High Lords order an immediate tithe of geneseed and send members of the Eccesiarch, and Mechanicum, and Minstratrum back to oversee the collection of the geneseed, the strengthening of the Church, and the breakup of the Council’s space marine force. The Council’s navy are also immediately ordered to tithe ships and crew to the greater IoM.
The Council must now make some tough decisions. For thousands of years they’ve wanted to get back to mankind, but now mankind is suddenly wanting to take their ships, their geneseed, and tell them that the Eccesiarch must be re-established. Their world is getting turned upside down and the forces that have defended them for so long are being weakened. The Council must decide do they bend to the will of the Imperium or do they tell the Imperium “You’re doing it wrong.”
One of two things will happen.
The Council submits and begins tithing its navy, its population, and its resources back to the IoM. The Ecclesiarch re-asserts its control and a generation of fanatics begins to sprout up causing religious riots and mini “cleansings” of the faithless. Slowly the Council’s power is reduced as members of the Ministratum from Earth are given political appointments to the easy to govern paradise worlds of the former Council. Their governance is lackluster and politically corrupt causing a slow slide into loss of tithes which result in the further oppression of the populace to make up for it. The Council Space Marines experience a purge from the Grey Knights, and break up into chapters with one chapter remaining in this sector and the foundings dispersed through the galaxy. They gain renown for their tenacity and ability to fight Chaos and Chaos Space Marines.
The Council resists. They happily hand over their plentiful money, and resources, but hold off on tithing their naval ships, defense forces and resist the breakup of the essential space marines which have so gallantly held back the tide of Chaos for thousands of years. The IoM is at first accepting and they try to negotiate a smaller tithe of the naval ships and defense forces. They are however insistent on the breakup of the Space Marines. The IoM and High Lords become worrisome at the lack of dedication to the IoM. While the tithes that are coming in are good. This sector is refusing to address their heresies and embrace the help of the outside world by sending their forces to where the IoM needs them. The Inquisition is again dispatched along with Space Wolves to enforce the will of Terra and the breakup of the Council’s defense forces. Tensions are high, but Terra is a force of nature not to be denied. A small skirmish breaks out in space that quickly escalates resulting in the loss of the Terrain fleet and Space Wolf ships.
The Council and the entire sector are declared Excommunicato Traitoris and Exterminatus is ordered. The entire sector must be purged. The Imperial Navy and all nearby Space Marine Chapters, the largest force of which are Space Wolves are ordered to assist. The Council and their Space Marines are compared to the Tyrant of Badab and the Badab War in scale of their heresy. All answer the call. The Council purge their planet of members of the IoM and prepare their defenses. The battles last for months with early success from the council’s superior technology. But, the IoM is a force of nature. Their numbers are infinite. Constant reinforcements arrive. More and more naval forces, entire Space Marine Chapters come to heed the call of support from their brethren already locked in the conflict. The greater numbers begin to take a toll. The first few border worlds are subjected to Exterminatus. The Council Navy and Space Marine forces begin to pull back to the core worlds exacting a heavy toll of the IoM as they retreat but the result is inevitable. There is no denying the will of the Imperium. The Council knows there is no surrender now. Exterminatus has been declared. Surrender means death for the trillions of its citizens. They become desperate allowing their psykers and Mechanicum greater, and greater leeway in order to find some way to turn the tide of battle, to get to parley with the IoM. Warp Incursions and possessions begin in some battles. Evidence of their corruption. A large group of powerful Council Psykers falsely believe they can call in and control a warp storm to destroy the IoM navy. Their foolish actions cause an eruption in the warp which does cause massive losses on the IoM forces, however they quickly loose control of the storm as it expands and becomes a reality bending tear that swallows the core worlds and most of the sector.
The IoM forces retreat and set up a permanent blockade surrounding the warp rift. The warp anomaly is designated Council’s Folly and their war of heresy ends.
First of all, the Imperial representatives wouldn't all be terrible rulers. They would likely be highly efficient in extracting the resources and converting the worlds back into full Imperial worlds; it's their job, after all. Corruption and inefficiency would set in eventually, but not immediately.
Also, the tech-heresy would lead to the local Mechanicum being purged.
Also, the local Astartes would be regarded with thinly veiled hostility and suspicion by all of the Inquisitors and Astartes. If they refused to be broken up, they would be purged.
The Council would probably have been left in power, so long as they ensured the Sector changed to match the other Sectors in the Segmenta.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/08 17:20:50
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.